ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 02:53 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Well, Walter and Foxfyre, that area of contention is what interests me, and I'd like to hear more about it from various points of view..

At present I'm not that interested in one or another politician's take on all this - more interested in the concepts, not that anyone is going there yet. I like the discussion so far, and appreciate all the posters.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 03:05 pm
@ossobuco,
The German SPD - the oldest Socialist party in the world - was founded in 1863. Since those days we fight totalitarianism - despite what Foxfyre claims to know.

The Fabian Society was establishe 1884. Opposite to Foxfyre, no-one sees the possibility that it guides its members (all PM's and cabinet ministers are and have been Fabians) to totalitarianism.
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  2  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 03:26 pm
As we discuss the perceived evils of socialism, lets not forget the dangers of unrestrained capitalism.

Monopolies. Collusion. Fraud. Environmental exploitation. Sweatshops. Company towns.

The laws to prevent these (anti-trust law, environmental protections, minimum wage laws, overtime laws, etc.) and attempt to balance the political and economic power of the rich vs. poor, labor vs. management, individual vs. corporation, (or however you want to phrase it) are "socialism."

On the spectrum of unrestrained capitalism to a centrally controlled economy, the US is already somewhere in the middle ground.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 03:29 pm
@Steve 41oo,
Molotov coctails were invented by the Finns. They gave Russia a good run for a short time.
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 03:49 pm
@roger,
cheers rog
I'll drink to that
my local pub is now selling absinthe!! Molotov will be turning in his grave.

regarding socialism. The marxists say its the next stage after capitalism. And as capitalism has just imploded, this must be it. Welcome to the brave new world.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Oct, 2008 03:51 pm
@DrewDad,
Nods, DD.
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 10:51 pm
Adam Smith had these main concepts:

1. Specialization of labor
2. Free market of unlimited suppliers and buyers to form the supply and demand curve
3. Assumption of infinte number of suppliers and buyers.

The formation of organizations of corporations, unions, trade associations have made supply and demand cure less smoothand more jerky as these organizations tried to corner the labor market or the production market. Oligarchies are formed and the free market is now only a concept. By nature you cannot have an infinite number of suppliers as the weaker ones fail and the successful ones grow bigger. Unions also tend to destroy the smaller companies.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2008 12:01 pm
@talk72000,
<following>
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2008 05:18 pm
@ossobuco,
That is why I am against industry wide unions, conglomerates, trusts, shell corporations as they circumvent the supply and demand curve. They all contribute to cornering something to gain power whether economic or political.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2008 08:14 pm
@talk72000,
I'm a union kid, in that my dad was an early guy in the film editor's union. I'm still for the ability to unionize, while I can see a mix of pros and cons re the union movement.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2008 10:21 pm
@roger,
Quote:
Molotov coctails were invented by the Finns


Yes indeed, and quite useful little darlings we found them to be.

Actually it was only the name "Molotov cocktail" that was coined by the Finnish

I thought it was me rebel brethern that invented the infernal conncotion, but I've done some research and it appears it was (once again) those crafty Chinee who first came up with a kerosene version to deploy against the Japanese in 1915.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2008 11:30 pm
I call myself a socialist but it is more in line with a Zen outlook than it is with traditional western or Marxist socialism. With me it is about the interconnectedness of all things, the striving for health and harmony in all things, a conservatism in the sense that one must take of what they are responsible for, a deep respect for the need for community. I am probably closer to the Greens than I am to those who call themselves socialists.

My politics reflects in some traditionally socialist bents though: for two years I lived at and was highly active in a student cooperative at Michigan State, I have been a union man for much of my adult life, and I am very active in Army family readiness groups, which is a volunteer group lead by company commanders which are tasked with looking out for and supporting the needs of families especially during deployments.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2008 11:36 pm
@DrewDad,
Don't you mean the "perceived" dangers of unrestrained capitalism?

Of course no system is perfect, and, irrespective of the ideological fervor of one or the other, in a democratic society, no system will run unchecked for very long.

It seems to me that, ultimately, these systems need to be judged by their sustainability.

If we start with a very basic presumption that without a healthy and growing economy, progress in all areas of human endeavor is not possible, then we need to ask ourselves which system offers the best promise for continued growth.

I actually have little doubt that, due in part to advanced technology, there will come a time when it is not the case, but until then, virtually every natural self-perpetuating system on earth is heavily involved in the concept that there are individual winners and individual losers.

We may find it a romantic or even religious notion that the lion might one day lie down with the lamb, but as long a lion remains a lion and a lamb remains a lamb, this event will not happen --- without the readily imagined bloody outcome.

Stars self-destruct by going Super Nova, and their remnants create new stars. If we believe that there are other planets in the universe that shelter life, then we can be pretty sure that at least one or two have been destroyed at the end time of their sun's life cycle.

The examples are endless.

There is nothing wrong with attempting to minimize the number of "losers," and how badly they "lose," but to the extent that the attempt eliminates winners, we are, for now, left with an unsustainable system.

Natural systems tend not to reward excessive "winning." Predators that can overwhelm their prey populations will, eventually, "win" themselves into the ultimate loss.

The same can be said of economics, and enlightened capitalist "winners" will care whether or not they are binging too heavily on the wealth they create.

If they do not, they will find themselves confronted with Unions, revolutions, and even the election of ultra-liberal politicians to the highest office in the land.

However, forced attempts to eliminate the creative tension of winners and losers will have more profound and much longer term implications.

Rendering foxes incapable of slaughtering rabbits will lead to the demise of the foxes - not their conversion to a vegetarian diet - and the rabbits will reproduce unchecked and eventually consume all of their available food resources; resulting in starvation and extinction. (Or, at least, the culling of their population by humans who will suffer the scorn and derision of Pam Anderson and her fellow PETA PITAs.)

Utterly free markets are self-organizing and highly sustainable, but the volatility of the correction process and the number of "losers" that result is just not acceptable to modern democratic societies.

OK - I get it. We need a bridle on Capitalism. I agree.

What we don't need, however, is to hobble Capitalism.

You can control a bridled horse, but you can't gallop a hobbled one.

Socialism, ultimately, hobbles capitalism.

Where has it succeeded?

You may throw out any number of Euro-socialist countries, but if you do, you are missing the fact that in such countries they are now facing the reality that they cannot preserve their cultural heritage and fuel their socialist economies. Their socialist economies have directly led to a reduced birth rate and with same, how can they manage to generate the wealth needed to take care of them all equally?

Immigration.

Bring in people from Third World countries who consider themselves (for a time) to be rich earning half of what a native might draw.

These are the folks who will pay for the aging population to enjoy the rewards of their socialist economy --- until they insist on joining equally in the game.

They have the leverage and they can impose their cultures on those of their new homelands.

At some point Europeans are going to have to choose between their pensions and their culture.

Beneath all of this is the simple fact that, at the very least, 50% of the "have-nots" don't have it because they don't care to do what it takes to get it.

Personally, I think this percentage is much higher, but let's be "conservative" and peg it at 50%. Let's also be conservative and consider the "haves" to be a mere 10% of the population. Can any economy be self-sustaining when 45% of its population is taking without giving?

OK, I'm a conservative bastard. The percentage of "have nots" who could be "haves" if they tried is only 30%.

How big a drag on an economy do you think it is to have a third of the population taking and not giving?










0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2008 11:44 pm
@hawkeye10,
A Zen Socialist.

That's a new one.

However, when I read your interpretation of Zen I can understand where you have gone astray.

There is nothing Zen (or for that matter Buddhist) about cooperatives and unions. Obviously you are suffering from the misconception that Leftism = Eastern Philosophy.

ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2008 11:54 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn, could we keep the digs out of this, at least for a few more days (re "where you have gone astray")? I know it is extraordinary to ask, and that the dig wasn't all so bad, barely noticeable - but I'm interested in some basic concepts re what socialism is or is not or may be or will be, and would like to put off the sparring stuff for a bit. Strong opinions welcome, but I'd like to put off snarl-city between posters.
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 25 Oct, 2008 11:58 pm
@ossobuco,
Finn, missed your last post, will backtrack.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2008 12:02 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
There is nothing Zen (or for that matter Buddhist) about cooperatives and unions. Obviously you are suffering from the misconception that Leftism = Eastern Philosophy.


Just for kicks, spend twenty minutes learning about traditional Chinese Zen monastic life and then repeat your comment.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2008 12:14 am
@hawkeye10,
I don't know all I need to know about Zen Buddhism, but I knew enough 20 years ago to know that you don't know what you are talking about.

I suggest you spend a bit more than 20 minutes studying the philosophy you want to claim but cannot articulate.

Sorry Osso - but I'm not so enlightened as to to ignore idiots. Perhaps you can scroll on by.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2008 12:26 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Buddhist socialism
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Buddhist socialism is a political ideology which advocates socialism based on the principles of Buddhism.

Buddhist socialists have called for state provision of the Buddhist requisites of food, shelter, clothing and medicine, for the abolition or amelioration of class distinctions, for campaigns for morality based on Buddhist traditions, and for workers and peasants to overcome the love of property.

People who have been described as Buddhist socialists include Buddhadasa Bhikkhu, S. W. R. D. Bandaranaike, U Nu and Norodom Sihanouk. Dalai Lama Tenzin Gyatso describes himself as "half-Marxist, half-Buddhist

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_socialism

You were saying??
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 26 Oct, 2008 01:02 am
@hawkeye10,
You looked up Buddhist Socialism on Wikipedia. Bully for you.

You can also look up "Christian Socialism" and "Islamic Socialism" at the same reference source.

Sorry Hawkeye but Buddhism, Christianity and Islam are not obvious precursors to Socialism.

Not so surprising that you found no results searching Wikipedia for "Zen Buddhist Socialism."

Remember you posted that you were a socialist in the Zen sense of the word.

Hey, I'm all for your exploring your spirituality and, by all means, you should explore Buddhism, Taoism, Christianity, Islam, and Judaism (among others), but please don't try and toss us your self-absorbed shite about being a "Zen Socialist," particularly when there isn't a real one on the face of this earth.
 

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