Turkey, Islam and Gov't

I would also like to ask if anyone shares my view that the most dangerous aspect of Islam is their persistent view that their religion should and can run their gov't. This and their intollerance for other religions must be indentified and corrected by them if they are to ever become a welcome part of the world community.

perception

I don't think, it's possible to answer all your questions and remarks within one response.
Turkey was created in 1923 from the Turkish remnants of the Ottoman Empire - thus is looking back to an old history and to old tradtions (you'll find a lot about that online, e.g. here:

http://www.ukans.edu/history/VL/near_east/turkey.html ).


Some political backgrounds:

http://www.csis.org/turkey/TUpdate.htm



Turkey and NATO

http://www.mfa.gov.tr/grupa/af/secure.htm

The Kurds are a large and distinct ethnic minority in the Middle East, numbering some 25-30 million people. The area that they have inhabited--referred to on maps for centuries as "Kurdistan"--spans modern day Iran, Iraq, Syria, and Turkey. Half of the Kurds reside in Turkey, where they comprise over 20 percent of the Turkish population.
This will really be an problem re. Iraqish Kurds!



Turkey has been a member to NATO since 1952, btw.

I'd guess that a lot of the current political posturing in Turkey has to do with their pending membership in the EU. They'll have to modify quite a bit of their legal and political system to become/remain a member.

Yes, Fishin' . . . and i've seen a lot of discussion of this on boards in Europe that i occassionally visit . . . not a lot of the people on those boards are convinced of the sincerity of the Turkish reforms--which is, of course, only anecdotal evidence . . .

Walter
Thanks for those links----I've read the 2nd, and working on the third and leaving the 1st for last. I like to hear your view on my second post regarding Islam's position in the world and what they should do to become a welcome part of it.

perception

You mean, what should they do to be liked by most Christians?

You probably remember that Christianity ruled quite a long time. The head of state of The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland (as well being the head of state of Canada, Australia and some dozen more countries) is the the head of the Anglican Church of England.

It's just two years ago, since Swedish ministers mustn't be members of the State Church.
Spain lost its state church in 1978.

Regarding how long it took Christianity to come to such results, thinking of the fact that the Moslem religion started some hundred years later .....


Intolerance of religion: seems to be, from what angle you look at it.

Frederique II of Prussia ( Frederick the Great, German Friedrich der Grosse, king of Prussia [1740-86]), said (something like): "Everybody shall become happy à ça façon".
Without doing any harm to other, I might add.

Walter
Please---did I mention anything about Christianity?
We allow and tolerate any religion here----not so in Muslim countries.

They seem to think (with the Exception of Turkey) that the clerics can and should run their governments----in other words there is no separation of Mosque and State.

When you look up ALL staes with a Moslem majority ... ?

Nevertheless, this is another excellent source about Turkey (more historical content, although):

http://www.let.leidenuniv.nl/tcimo/tulp/

Algeria has a secular government, established by a military coup to prevent the take-over of an elected, muslim fundamentalist government. There is a huge gap between the muslim fundamentalist in Egypt and the members of Egypt's government. When Nagib lead his military coup against the corrupt and bankrupt government of King Farouk in 1952, he had at his side Gamal Abd El-Nassar, who quickly moved to get rid of Nagib (and not violently, Nagib was not imprisoned, and died quietly in his home in 1984), with the aid of his right hand man, Anwar El-Sadat. It is likely that Nagib was eased out because he was Sudanese, and Egyptian nationalism was very strong at the time of the 1952 coup. The assassination of Anwar Sadat is seen, correctly, as a blanket threat to the militarily-dominated secular government of that nation. Lybia's Gaddafi is no enemy to Islam, but you'd be a fool to think that any Imam can dictate policy to him. Tunisia's government is secular, and very likely to stay that way. Morocco's monarchy is stable, and the government shows proper respect for Islam, while the clerics keep their noses out of government, knowing full well upon which side their bread is buttered--and having taken a serious lesson from what happened in Algeria. The Ba'at Arab Socialist Party, formed after the disintegration of the United Arab Republic (a union of Egypt and Syria, a failed attempt by El-Nassar), provided the original leadership of Syria and Iraq before two minority tribal leaders took over in each country--Assad in Syria, Hussein in Iraq. Neither has ever had much use for religious leadership--Imams in Syria and Iraq keep their heads down, as befits successful survivors in tyrannical regimes. When Saddam wraps himself in the green banner of Islam, it is one of his most hypocritical stances, but it works quite well with the enraged fundamentalist fanatics of the Muslim world, who are looking for a leader, and not too particular about the credentials of such a leader.

It is completely incorrect to view the Muslim world as being any more unitary and united than the Christian world. Within less than a generation of the death of the Prophet, Islam had split into two major factions--the Sunnis and the Shiites. With the death of Ali, son-in-law to the Prophet, and the scattering of his followers after the "Mother of Battles," Shiism splintered even further. Among the Sunnis, the Fatamids became the most influential of the splinter groups, claiming their religious authority from a contention that they followed Fatima, the daughter of the Prophet, and the widow of Ali. By the end of the 10th Century, they had grown in power sufficiently to take over Egypt. There has not been, since the mid-seventh century, a single "type" of Islam--it fragmented just as rapidly as Christianity; in fact, i would be tempted to say that sectarianism arose more quickly in Islam, because they were never the underground, persecuted sect that Christians believe their founders once to have been (a not-entirely supportable historical contention); rather, they were conquerors, and as might be anticipated with many rich spoils to divide, they quickly fell out.

You can no more make a statement which describes every country with a muslim majority than you can of all nations with christian majorities.

Setanta
Thanks for the history lesson----your knowledge of history of the Islamic countries if very impressive.

What can you tell me about the madrassa schools in Pakistan and the US?

Not much, Boss, it is of little interest to me . . . i don't care if charismatics in this country teach their children snake-handling and their perverted vision of the word of god, and i don't care what their mirror-fanatic counterparts are up to in the distorted world of islam . . . religious fanatics are a willfully ignorant and dangerous lot wherever you find them . . .

Setanta
For clarification: Madrassa schools are run by Muslims for Muslims and teach hatred for anyone who is non-muslim. These schools are located not just in Pakistan and other Muslim countries but also right here in the USA.

I knew that, Boss, but i really have no interest in hateful people, beyond a desire to protect myself from them--which does not include the belief in punching them in the nose on the off chance that they were planning to do the same to me . . . i assure you that this country is filled with hundreds of thousands of people who profess christianity, and hate anyone who is not christian, and christian by their narrow definition . . .

Setanta
Maybe you would feel different if you had to ride a bus in Israel. I myself am not a religious person but I recognize a strong psychological need for some sort of religious belief in the lives of most people and I encourage and tolerate that need. I do not however believe that I must tolerate the existence of schools here in this country that teach hatred of me because I'm not Muslim.
Your insistence that that you just don't care about this issue but yet take such a strong position on others, I find strangely inconsistent
That is not a criticism---I'm just puzzled

Well, Boss, it's the being hateful part which is of interest to me, but only in a self-preservationist way . . . i'm disgusted by religious fanatics of any stripe, and don't make distinctions between the flavors of religiously inspired hatefulness . . . so no, i don't care any more about people who teach their children to hate non-muslims than i do those who teach their children to hate non-christians, of whom, i haven't the least doubt, there are many, many more in this country . . .

Setanta
I'm interested in your wish to protect yourself from hatred. How exactly can you be assured of doing this-----it might be your next door neighbor.

Do forgive my lack of precision . . . from the effects of hatred physically expressed . . . if you take a swing at me, i'll defend myself; if you make threats, i'll inform the police and prosecutors; if you rant on about your religious vision of a righteous world, i'll simply avoid your company; if i see that you have an arsenal in your house, i'll move . . .

Setanta
Yes--Yes ----those are all obvious but what if he knocks on your door and as you open the door-------he shoots you in the head 3 times------as they just did in Lebanon to that American nurse. Now I realize she shouldn't have placed herself in that position but what are we to do, pull everyone back to the US and then cower behind locked doors and wait until they decide to strike?

You're descending into the absurd there, Boss, obviously no one can defend themselves from that . . . however, the alleged existence of such hotbeds of hatred right here in the New Nited States does not automatically mean i have that to worry about . . .