Occom Bill:
As a matter of general practice, when there are multiple means by which a person may violate a criminal statute, the person is charged in the conjunctive, but the jury is instructed in the disjunctive. (Which is why criminal defense attorneys ask for Bills of Particulars.) But, we're not discussing the issue of charging a person conjunctively or disjunctively. Thus, your focus on the word "or" isn't even relevant to the discussion. (Teenage Girl: Sex Offender?)
The statute penalizes a person (as a sex offender) for taking, sending, and/or possessing a picture (material) that shows a minor in a state of nudity. (As an aside, however, more than mere nudity is required. To survive constitutional scrutiny, the Ohio SC requires the offending nudity to constitute a lewd exhibition or involve a graphic focus on the genitals.) In other words, there are several means by which a person may violate the statute. This is true with many criminal statutes. The law requires that ALL of the provisions in the statutory scheme at issue must be construed as a whole to serve the underlying legislative object and policy to PROTECT the minor who is being depicted in the allegedly offending material.
You cannot, in good faith, avoid basic rules of statutory construction by pointing to the "or" words in your dissection of the statutory provisions. If you made this same spurious argument to the Ohio Supreme Court, the Court would say, so what? We already know (duh) that the statutory scheme provides alternate means by which the statute may be violated.
The question, counsel, is how does charging the minor as a felony sex offender for taking, possessing, OR sending a nude picture of herself serve the underlying legislative object and policy to PROTECT the minor who is being depicted in the allegedly offending material? How would you answer that question posed to you by the reviewing court? Because that's where you win or lose your case.
Take a look at Ohio v. Arnold:
Defendant Arnold appealed his conviction for illegal use (possessing or viewing) of a minor in nudity oriented materials in violation of Ohio R.C. Section 2907.323(A)(3). The mother of an underage female contacted the police and reported that Arnold was taking sexually provocative photographs of her daughter and two other young girls. The matter was investigated and Arnold was arrested. The facts at trial disclosed that the three minor girls photographed themselves in the nude and they transferred the nude photos to Arnold in exchange for money and marijuana. Although the girls photographed themselves, temporarily possessed and viewed the photos of themselves, and then transferred the photos to ARNOLD, the girls were NOT charged as sex offenders nor were they charged with aiding and abetting Arnold. They were treated as the victims. The DEFENDANT Arnold was convicted of possessing and viewing the photos--a crime that Arnold could not have committed if the girls had not first taken the sexually explicit photos of themselves and transferred the photos to him.
If these minor girls and/or their mothers were aware that the girls could be charged with a felony sex offense for taking, possessing, and/or transferring nude photos of themselves--and risk being required to register themselves as sex offenders for twenty years--do you think they would have come forward to report Arnold's exploitive conduct to the police? How does making minors (and their parents/guardians) fearful of coming forward to report crimes comport with the underlying legislative purpose to protect minors from being exploited?
Under your argument, however, the underlying object and policy of the statutory scheme isn't relevant.
According to you, the girls transferred the nude photos of themselves to Arnold--thus they are guilty.
Hopefully, however, our courts are aware that legislators aren't in the business of passing laws that victimize victims under the guise of protecting them.
Finally, I've tried to be patient, but if you have no more to offer this discussion except another litany of insults, I'm not inclined to respond in the future.
Oh, so she's the PERPETRATOR of the crime! Maybe we should put her in jail and offer counseling to the victim?
Again, if your ridiculous interpretation had merit, all kids would be able to create, possess, and transfer kiddie porn with impunity, providing there was no adult involved, because all would be immune from prosecution. That is flat out friggin ridiculous, Debra.
Bill, I consider it one of those "victimless" crimes. How can you be both the perpetrator and the victim?
Our prisons are overcrowded with people who have harmed no one.
It's a law that should be either modified or dumped in the crapper.
Oh, so she's the PERPETRATOR of the crime! Maybe we should put her in jail and offer counseling to the victim?
NickFun wrote:Would you consider this argument if she were charged with using heroin?
Bill, I consider it one of those "victimless" crimes. How can you be both the perpetrator and the victim?
B. I wouldn't want to any adult kiddie p0rn producers or distributors getting early release.
I remember when I was in high school I had this friend who had this boyfriend who made this series of photos of her. She showed them round, they were very cool, they included a couple of nudes one too. Some of us asked for copies of some of the photos, I got about ten, including a nude one. All of 'em were pretty effin' cool.
Me, I think users of heroin should not be sent into the criminal system or thrown in jail, not for the use of heroin itself. I think they should be given help. It's the dealers who belong in court.
(Course, most of the users would end up in court anyway because of how they end up stealing to feed their addiction. But that's something different from throwing them into the legal system for the act of using itself, and it's also where your comparison between this case and them falls apart. The use of heroin generally ends up not just harming the user himself alone.)
OCCOM BILL wrote:
NickFun wrote:Would you consider this argument if she were charged with using heroin?
Bill, I consider it one of those "victimless" crimes. How can you be both the perpetrator and the victim?
Me, I think users of heroin should not be sent into the criminal system or thrown in jail, not for the use of heroin itself. I think they should be given help. It's the dealers who belong in court.
(Course, most of the users would end up in court anyway because of how they end up stealing to feed their addiction. But that's something different from throwing them into the legal system for the act of using itself, and it's also where your comparison between this case and them falls apart. The use of heroin generally ends up not just harming the user himself alone.)
Quote:B. I wouldn't want to any adult kiddie p0rn producers or distributors getting early release.
I realise that, as you phrased it in your first sentence, these photos are "material covered under Ohio's kiddie porn". Fine. So I guess you got the legal grounds when you then keep off-handedly calling these photos "kiddie porn". But am I the only one who thinks of very different things than photos a teenager took of herself and sent to her friends when someone talks about "kiddie porn"?
I mean, sure, it helps you make the emotional charge and impact you're looking for in your argument, but I dunno - really? And to then compare this teenager who sent her friends nude pictures of herself with "kiddie p0rn producers or distributors" ? I dont know nothing about US law, but isnt it time for a bit of a reality check here?
I mean, I'm thinking about this again:
nimh wrote:
I remember when I was in high school I had this friend who had this boyfriend who made this series of photos of her. She showed them round, they were very cool, they included a couple of nudes one too. Some of us asked for copies of some of the photos, I got about ten, including a nude one. All of 'em were pretty effin' cool.
So in your recounting I suppose that would have made my friend a "distributor of kiddie porn" and her boyfriend a "producer of kiddie porn"? I mean, I dunno. Maybe you got the law texts to back you up, but ... what about a sense of proportion?
I was arguing against Debra's demented legal interpretation which would render self creating and distributing [to] children completely immune from prosecution under Ohio State statute 2907.323....
My point is that Debra's demented interpretation of the law would green light any kid who did aspire to be a "kiddie porn producer or distributor." to operate with impunity.
Occom Bill wrote:I was arguing against Debra's demented legal interpretation which would render self creating and distributing [to] children completely immune from prosecution under Ohio State statute 2907.323....
My point is that Debra's demented interpretation of the law would green light any kid who did aspire to be a "kiddie porn producer or distributor." to operate with impunity.
Again, you ignore the legislative intent of R.C. 2907.323. Your argument that an interpretation of R.C. 2907.323 that is consistent with public policy and legislative intent is somehow "demented" defies both logic and the law. All the courts in our entire country are required to consider the objects and purposes of the statute in question when applying the statute in order to avoid absurd results.
Again, you ignore the fact, if the material the minor is "creating" and "distributing" to other minors is obscene or harmful (as defined by law), then she can be prosecuted under R.C. 2907.31 (Disseminating material harmful to juveniles).
Your argument that an interpretation of R.C. 2907.323 that is consistent with public policy and legislative intent would somehow immunize minors and allow them to distribute "kiddie porn" with impunity has no basis in fact or law.
Ridiculous. The intent of the law is to stop the production and distribution of kiddie porn. Charging someone for doing so is hardly an absurd result.
If your interpretation of 2907.323 had merit; what statute would apply to a minor who habitually created masturbation porn and sent it to people other than minors?
If it was YOUR daughter that was being exploited and victimized by a law that was intended to protect her, you would want someone like me to defend her.
Quote:If it was YOUR daughter that was being exploited and victimized by a law that was intended to protect her, you would want someone like me to defend her.
I certainly would.
SH man guilty of taking nude photos of minor
Posted by Staff July 18, 2008 23:51PM
A Sagamore Hills man faces eight years in prison after being found guilty of illegal use of a minor in nudity oriented material, a second-degree felony.
Daniel J. Martinson, 23, of Crystal Creek Drive, was found guilty by visiting Judge Ted Schneiderman. Martinson will be sentenced Aug. 15.
According to Summit County Prosecutor Sherri Bevan Walsh's office, Martinson in 2006 convinced a juvenile female he worked for "Voodoo Modeling Agency" and talked her into signing a modeling contract with him. He then proceeded to take multiple naked pictures of the girl, who believed that Martinson was using the photos to get her modeling jobs.
Martinson will be classified as a Tier II Sexual Offender, which will require him to register every six months for 25 years.
Occom Bill wrote:If your interpretation of 2907.323 had merit; what statute would apply to a minor who habitually created masturbation porn and sent it to people other than minors?
2907.32 Pandering obscenity.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907