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Teenage Girl: Sex Offender?

 
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 12:42 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

Occom Bill:

As a matter of general practice, when there are multiple means by which a person may violate a criminal statute, the person is charged in the conjunctive, but the jury is instructed in the disjunctive. (Which is why criminal defense attorneys ask for Bills of Particulars.) But, we're not discussing the issue of charging a person conjunctively or disjunctively. Thus, your focus on the word "or" isn't even relevant to the discussion. (Teenage Girl: Sex Offender?)
You are being ridiculous. "Multiple means by which a person may violate a criminal statute" is precisely why the word OR is relevant. How can you even type such a blatant contradiction and think you're making sense?

Debra Law wrote:
The statute penalizes a person (as a sex offender) for taking, sending, and/or possessing a picture (material) that shows a minor in a state of nudity. (As an aside, however, more than mere nudity is required. To survive constitutional scrutiny, the Ohio SC requires the offending nudity to constitute a lewd exhibition or involve a graphic focus on the genitals.) In other words, there are several means by which a person may violate the statute. This is true with many criminal statutes. The law requires that ALL of the provisions in the statutory scheme at issue must be construed as a whole to serve the underlying legislative object and policy to PROTECT the minor who is being depicted in the allegedly offending material.
Again with the ridiculous caveat, "ALL"? Were that actually the case; taking and viewing the pictures wouldn't be sufficient, if the perp didn't also transfer them. How can you continue to ignore such an obvious flaw in your interpretation?

As written: Taking, viewing, OR transferring the pictures constitutes a violation of 2907.323. It is not necessary to prove more than one of those things occurred to establish guilt.

Debra Law wrote:

You cannot, in good faith, avoid basic rules of statutory construction by pointing to the "or" words in your dissection of the statutory provisions. If you made this same spurious argument to the Ohio Supreme Court, the Court would say, so what? We already know (duh) that the statutory scheme provides alternate means by which the statute may be violated.
Your semi-backpedaling on this is as obvious as your original denial was silly. Were I an attorney and was presenting an argument to the Ohio Supreme Court; there would be no reason to address the obvious meaning of OR because no real attorney would be silly enough to challenge the obvious meaning in the first place.

Debra Law wrote:

The question, counsel, is how does charging the minor as a felony sex offender for taking, possessing, OR sending a nude picture of herself serve the underlying legislative object and policy to PROTECT the minor who is being depicted in the allegedly offending material? How would you answer that question posed to you by the reviewing court? Because that's where you win or lose your case.
The simple answer is YES. Just as charging a minor with the consumption of alcohol serves the underlying legislative object and policy to PROTECT the minor from the ills of alcohol.

However; no Ohio SC Justice would ask such a slanted Complex Question in the first place. You are falsely assuming that the public interest in prohibiting this behavior begins and ends at protecting only the minor depicted in the picture. This simply isn’t true. Were it true; her need for protection and the applicability of statute 2907.323 would expire with her life. The truth is; the statue’s applicability is independent of her need for protection, because the community has an interest prohibiting the taking, viewing, and transferring of this material beyond protecting the individual depicted.

This false assumption of yours is part of why you’re failing to see the obvious flaws in your argument. This girl’s life doesn’t take place in a vacuum… and Ohio law makes no attempt to pretend it does. Only you do.

Debra Law wrote:

Take a look at Ohio v. Arnold:

Defendant Arnold appealed his conviction for illegal use (possessing or viewing) of a minor in nudity oriented materials in violation of Ohio R.C. Section 2907.323(A)(3). The mother of an underage female contacted the police and reported that Arnold was taking sexually provocative photographs of her daughter and two other young girls. The matter was investigated and Arnold was arrested. The facts at trial disclosed that the three minor girls photographed themselves in the nude and they transferred the nude photos to Arnold in exchange for money and marijuana. Although the girls photographed themselves, temporarily possessed and viewed the photos of themselves, and then transferred the photos to ARNOLD, the girls were NOT charged as sex offenders nor were they charged with aiding and abetting Arnold. They were treated as the victims. The DEFENDANT Arnold was convicted of possessing and viewing the photos--a crime that Arnold could not have committed if the girls had not first taken the sexually explicit photos of themselves and transferred the photos to him.

Arnold was the perpetrator in this case, not the girls. He was found to have planned, encouraged, and even paid for the photo session with money and marijuana. He showed them other pictures similar to what he wanted and gave them explicit instructions about precisely what he wanted. He was found to be at least 10 years their senior so it is entirely reasonable to consider those kids his victims. That is not the case here, Debra. There is no Arnold.
That case:
1) Was there a crime committed? Yes.
2) Who was responsible for the crime? Arnold.
This case:
1) Was there a crime committed? Yes.
2) Who was responsible for the crime? The girl.


Debra Law wrote:

If these minor girls and/or their mothers were aware that the girls could be charged with a felony sex offense for taking, possessing, and/or transferring nude photos of themselves--and risk being required to register themselves as sex offenders for twenty years--do you think they would have come forward to report Arnold's exploitive conduct to the police? How does making minors (and their parents/guardians) fearful of coming forward to report crimes comport with the underlying legislative purpose to protect minors from being exploited?
The minor girls could have been charged had they been deemed responsible for the crimes committed… and I’m sure they were told as much. The prosecutor in that case correctly (IMO) deemed Arnold’s coercive efforts the cause of the crime. Here you have a man more than 10 years the minor’s senior who planned and executed their exploitation. That is an entirely different scenario. There is no Arnold in this case. This girl was victimized by no one. She alone is responsible for her crime. She alone planned and executed it, with full knowledge that her behavior was illegal.


Debra Law wrote:
Under your argument, however, the underlying object and policy of the statutory scheme isn't relevant.
Utter nonsense. “The underlying object and policy of the statutory scheme” is completely relevant and is the reason the person responsible for the crime should be charged. This is true in this case, just as it was in Arnold.
Debra Law wrote:
According to you, the girls transferred the nude photos of themselves to Arnold--thus they are guilty.
Had they not been coerced by the adult who was ultimately deemed responsible for the crime; this would be true. Nothing happens in a vacuum and your attempt to pretend otherwise serves logic no better in that case than it does in this one.

Debra Law wrote:
Hopefully, however, our courts are aware that legislators aren't in the business of passing laws that victimize victims under the guise of protecting them.
This statement is completely nonsensical. This girl is the perpetrator of the crime, not the victim of it. Again, if your ridiculous interpretation had merit, all kids would be able to create, possess, and transfer kiddie porn with impunity, providing there was no adult involved, because all would be immune from prosecution. That is flat out friggin ridiculous, Debra.

Debra Law wrote:
Finally, I've tried to be patient, but if you have no more to offer this discussion except another litany of insults, I'm not inclined to respond in the future.
Rolling Eyes I have tried very hard to limit my criticism to your outrageous interpretations and arguments. No easy task when you continue to stand behind such utterly ridiculous positions.
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 07:46 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Oh, so she's the PERPETRATOR of the crime! Maybe we should put her in jail and offer counseling to the victim?
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 08:19 pm
@NickFun,
NickFun wrote:

Oh, so she's the PERPETRATOR of the crime! Maybe we should put her in jail and offer counseling to the victim?

Rolling Eyes Two simple questions, Nick:
Was a crime committed? (Ohio Law says there was.)
Who do you think committed it? (I’ll give you one(1) guess.)
NickFun
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 10:22 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Bill, I consider it one of those "victimless" crimes. How can you be both the perpetrator and the victim? Our prisons are overcrowded with people who have harmed no one. It's a law that should be either modified or dumped in the crapper.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Oct, 2008 11:24 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Occom Bill:

Concerning the case entitled Ohio v. Arnold, you stated that the female minors could have been charged as sex offenders. You said, "The minor girls could have been charged had they been deemed responsible for the crimes committed." With the exception of strict liability offenses, criminal responsibility or liability is measured by a person's culpability. In that regard, the minor girls "recklessly or knowingly" transferred the sexually explicit photos to another.

If the statute is applied to criminally penalize minors who victimize themselves--making them both the perpetrator and the victim of the crime-- then few minors or their parents would ever come forward to report the victimization because doing so incriminates the minors and places them at risk of being convicted of a grave felony offense and branded as sex offenders. Accordingly, if victims are afraid to come forward because they fear the law, then the public policy and purpose of the law is defeated. That is an absurd result.

Here's a juvenile court case that discusses the absurd result concerning the improper application of a statute involving a sex offense:

State of Utah v. Z.C.
http://www.utcourts.gov/opinions/supopin/ZC071707.pdf

Utah’s child sexual abuse statute provides the following:

(1) As used in this section, “child” means a person under the age of 14.

(2) A person commits sexual abuse of a child if, under circumstances not amounting to rape of a child, object rape of a child, sodomy upon a child, or an attempt to commit any of these offenses, the actor touches the anus, buttocks, or genitalia of any child, the breast of a female child, or otherwise takes indecent liberties with a child, or causes a child to take indecent liberties with the actor or another with intent to cause substantial emotional or bodily pain to any person or with the intent to arouse or gratify the sexual desire of any person regardless of the sex of any participant.

A 13 year old girl and a 12 year old boy engaged in sex. The girl became pregnant. Both the boy and the girl were separately charged for sexually abusing each other in violation of sexual abuse statute. The girl challenged the statute as applied to her. She argued that the legislature could not have intended such a result.

The Utah Supreme Court set forth the standard: “When interpreting statutes, our primary goal is to evince the true intent and purpose of the Legislature.” Under the plain language of the statute, a child is a person and may be adjudicated delinquent for sexually touching another child with the requisite intent. The Court said: "Normally, where the language of a statute is clear and unambiguous, our analysis ends; our duty is to give effect to that plain meaning. However, '[a]n equally well-settled caveat to the plain meaning rule states that a court should not follow the literal language of a statute if its plain meaning works an absurd result.'"

The Court found that applying the statute to treat Z.C. as both a victim and a perpetrator of child sex abuse for the same act leads to an absurd result that was not intended by the legislature. "Sexual abuse of a child is one of the most heinous crimes recognized by our penal code. The gravity of this crime is reflected by the fact that it is punished as a second degree felony if committed by an adult. Child sex abuse merits serious penalties because of the extreme psychological harm that the perpetrator causes the victim. Therefore, like all forms of sexual assault, child sex abuse presupposes that a single act of abuse involves a victim, whom the statute endeavors to protect, and a perpetrator, whom the statute punishes for harming the victim.

"By filing delinquency petitions for child sex abuse against both participants for sexually touching one another, the State treats both children as perpetrators of the same act. In this situation, there is no discernible victim that the law seeks to protect, only culpable participants that the State seeks to punish."

The Court also noted: "The primary fail-safe against the absurd application of criminal law is the wise employment of prosecutorial discretion, a quality that is starkly absent in this case."

* * *

Similarly, the OHIO statute that we've been discussing contemplates a perpetrator and a victim (the minor who is shown in a state of nudity). The State of OHIO has defended its statute all the way to the United States Supreme Court. The State of OHIO is on record declaring that the legislative purpose of the statute is to protect the victims of child pornography. Osborne v. Ohio, 495 U.S. 103, 109 (1990). It defies logic, reason, and legislative intent to treat the victimized minor, whom the state seeks to protect, as the perpetrator of her own victimization and charge her with an extremely serious crime with substantial penalties.

Again the UTAH SC noted, "The primary fail-safe against the absurd application of criminal law is the wise employment of prosecutorial discretion, a quality that is starkly absent in this case." The same holds true for the Licking County prosecutor in the OHIO case.

In conclusion, Occom Bill, this discussion forum is called "able2know." You have not demonstrated an ability to mentally, emotionally, or intellectual grasp the elementary concepts under discussion. On the other hand, you have demonstrated superior ability to make boorish statements in more than ample quantity. Congratulations!
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 01:14 am
@Debra Law,
Rolling Eyes You've brought up another irrelevant case, Debra. The Ohio girl hasn't been charged with statutory rape. Had those Utah kids filmed their act and distributed it in Ohio; 2907.323 would most certainly apply. Transferring kiddie porn is illegal, for good reason, Debra. Why do you keep bringing more irrelevant things to the conversation instead of answering the item that renders your position absurd? Here it is for at least the third time:

Bill wrote:
Again, if your ridiculous interpretation had merit, all kids would be able to create, possess, and transfer kiddie porn with impunity, providing there was no adult involved, because all would be immune from prosecution. That is flat out friggin ridiculous, Debra.

This remains ridiculous, and your inability to address it should tell you that you've got it wrong… ridiculously wrong.

Join Nick in believing the Law should be changed, if you think kids should be able to create, possess, and distribute kiddie porn with impunity, but STOP pretending the law doesn’t apply.




OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 01:30 am
@NickFun,
NickFun wrote:

Bill, I consider it one of those "victimless" crimes. How can you be both the perpetrator and the victim?
Would you consider this argument if she were charged with using heroin?

She became a perp when she chose to send material covered under Ohio's kiddie porn laws to kids. I'd rather no one be allowed to do that with impunity.

NickFun wrote:
Our prisons are overcrowded with people who have harmed no one.
With this, I couldn't agree more. But;
A. I don't think anyone wants to send this kid to jail.
B. I wouldn't want to any adult kiddie p0rn producers or distributors getting early release.
NickFun wrote:
It's a law that should be either modified or dumped in the crapper.
I could see room for plenty of improvement, though I suspect the allegations are considerably more flexible than you realize. I wouldn't like to see Debra's demented interpretation allow kids to create and distribute kiddie porn with impunity.
Deckland
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 01:40 am
@NickFun,
NickFun wrote:

Oh, so she's the PERPETRATOR of the crime! Maybe we should put her in jail and offer counseling to the victim?

ROFLOL

Good one nick !!! Being that she is under age, she would also be a victim as well as the perpetrator ...
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  0  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 03:24 am
@OCCOM BILL,
Occom Bill:

You created a strawman and then, consistent with your obstreperous manner, you blasted your own creation as ridiculous. As usual, however, you did not address what was actually said.

Based on the public policy of the state and the purpose of the statute, the minor at issue cannot be both the perpetrator and the victim with respect to an illegal use of a minor violation. However, if the minor at issue had transferred a photo of a minor (other than herself) in a state of nudity that qualifies as child pornography, then she could be held liable as a perpetrator. But that didn't happen. She transferred a "nudity oriented" photo of HERSELF to her classmates. If the photo constitutes material that is harmful to juveniles (her classmates) as defined by law, then she can be prosecuted under a different statute that protects the minor recipients of harmful material.

0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 05:33 am
@OCCOM BILL,
OCCOM BILL wrote:

NickFun wrote:

Bill, I consider it one of those "victimless" crimes. How can you be both the perpetrator and the victim?
Would you consider this argument if she were charged with using heroin?

Me, I think users of heroin should not be sent into the criminal system or thrown in jail, not for the use of heroin itself. I think they should be given help. It's the dealers who belong in court.

(Course, most of the users would end up in court anyway because of how they end up stealing to feed their addiction. But that's something different from throwing them into the legal system for the act of using itself, and it's also where your comparison between this case and them falls apart. The use of heroin generally ends up not just harming the user himself alone.)

Quote:
B. I wouldn't want to any adult kiddie p0rn producers or distributors getting early release.

I realise that, as you phrased it in your first sentence, these photos are "material covered under Ohio's kiddie porn". Fine. So I guess you got the legal grounds when you then keep off-handedly calling these photos "kiddie porn". But am I the only one who thinks of very different things than photos a teenager took of herself and sent to her friends when someone talks about "kiddie porn"?

I mean, sure, it helps you make the emotional charge and impact you're looking for in your argument, but I dunno - really? And to then compare this teenager who sent her friends nude pictures of herself with "kiddie p0rn producers or distributors"? I dont know nothing about US law, but isnt it time for a bit of a reality check here?

I mean, I'm thinking about this again:

nimh wrote:

I remember when I was in high school I had this friend who had this boyfriend who made this series of photos of her. She showed them round, they were very cool, they included a couple of nudes one too. Some of us asked for copies of some of the photos, I got about ten, including a nude one. All of 'em were pretty effin' cool.

So in your recounting I suppose that would have made my friend a "distributor of kiddie porn" and her boyfriend a "producer of kiddie porn"? I mean, I dunno. Maybe you got the law texts to back you up, but ... what about a sense of proportion?
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 06:25 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

Me, I think users of heroin should not be sent into the criminal system or thrown in jail, not for the use of heroin itself. I think they should be given help. It's the dealers who belong in court.

(Course, most of the users would end up in court anyway because of how they end up stealing to feed their addiction. But that's something different from throwing them into the legal system for the act of using itself, and it's also where your comparison between this case and them falls apart. The use of heroin generally ends up not just harming the user himself alone.)

Not to mention that a heroin addiction often leads to, I dunno, loss of the ability to work or go to school at all, loss of friends and family contacts, homelessness even, eventually, and all too often ... death. So even if you're just talking about protecting someone from harming only themselves, how's that a comparison that has any sense of proportion at all?

Cause that's what we're talking about here: people seriously losing their sense of perspective. Nobody's saying that this girl taking nude pics of herself and sending them round, even after having been sternly warned about it, is unproblematic. She may or may not have some serious problems in the background of all this; she certainly seems to have problems with the whole boundaries thing. Sounds like she could do with some lifecoaching through these tricky teenage years; her family (did I read somewhere that she's from a foster home?) and/or teachers would do well to keep an eye open on helping her.

But if what she needs is help, she needs it from people who make clear they're standing by her, not against her, and not from some judge trying to make an example out of her. What is not needed is drag her in front of court, convict her of something that would put her on a sex offenders list that, as Shewolf explained, would haunt her for decades and make it hard to find any work, home etc, smear her case all over the newspapers and compare her with kiddie porn distributors.

It's about what helps versus what's just straight counterproductive; and it's about using a sense of proportion. I mean, seriously. How can you even compare this girl's case with that of kiddie porn producers or heroin addicts with a straight face?
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 11:30 am
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

NickFun wrote:

Bill, I consider it one of those "victimless" crimes. How can you be both the perpetrator and the victim?
Would you consider this argument if she were charged with using heroin?

Me, I think users of heroin should not be sent into the criminal system or thrown in jail, not for the use of heroin itself. I think they should be given help. It's the dealers who belong in court.
Frankly, I couldn't agree more. But I was debating the Law... not the correctness of the Law.
Try this:
In order to reduce the prevalence of underage alcohol consumption; Law makers have seen fit to charge minors with underage alcohol consumption.
This answers Nick's question, "How can you be both the perpetrator and the victim?" Again, this was a legal argument.

nimh wrote:
(Course, most of the users would end up in court anyway because of how they end up stealing to feed their addiction. But that's something different from throwing them into the legal system for the act of using itself, and it's also where your comparison between this case and them falls apart. The use of heroin generally ends up not just harming the user himself alone.)
Were I King, heroin use would not be illegal for adults, but neither would it provide an excuse for those side issues that tend to, but don't always, accompany it. Providing it to children on the other hand; would be very serious crime.

nimh wrote:
Quote:
B. I wouldn't want to any adult kiddie p0rn producers or distributors getting early release.

I realise that, as you phrased it in your first sentence, these photos are "material covered under Ohio's kiddie porn". Fine. So I guess you got the legal grounds when you then keep off-handedly calling these photos "kiddie porn". But am I the only one who thinks of very different things than photos a teenager took of herself and sent to her friends when someone talks about "kiddie porn"?
Of course not... there is a huge difference in scale. The reason I chose the more extreme example; is because I was arguing against Debra's demented legal interpretation which would render self creating and distributing children completely immune from prosecution under Ohio State statute 2907.323. That would be the legal net effect of her interpretation... because she's attacking the applicability of the law itself, rather than the severity of the crime. Should it be determined that the nature of the photos do not constitute a violation under 2907.323, that's a different kettle of fish. It is the way she is attacking the prosecutor's case that I've objected to... frankly... because it is ridiculous. Legislators most certainly didn't intend to immune kids from kiddie-porn laws and arguing that they did remains absurd.

nimh wrote:
I mean, sure, it helps you make the emotional charge and impact you're looking for in your argument, but I dunno - really? And to then compare this teenager who sent her friends nude pictures of herself with "kiddie p0rn producers or distributors" ? I dont know nothing about US law, but isnt it time for a bit of a reality check here?
I make no such comparison and have no reason to believe she has anything in common with "kiddie porn producers or distributors." My point is that Debra's demented interpretation of the law would green light any kid who did aspire to be a "kiddie porn producer or distributor." to operate with impunity.

There is a tremendous difference between believing the Prosecutor should not apply the law (micro); and claiming that the law doesn't apply (macro).

nimh wrote:
I mean, I'm thinking about this again:

nimh wrote:

I remember when I was in high school I had this friend who had this boyfriend who made this series of photos of her. She showed them round, they were very cool, they included a couple of nudes one too. Some of us asked for copies of some of the photos, I got about ten, including a nude one. All of 'em were pretty effin' cool.

So in your recounting I suppose that would have made my friend a "distributor of kiddie porn" and her boyfriend a "producer of kiddie porn"? I mean, I dunno. Maybe you got the law texts to back you up, but ... what about a sense of proportion?
I absolutely do not think what you've described qualifies anyone as a distributor or producer of kiddie porn. But I wouldn't like to see this common sense truth used as a way to nullify the law that addresses kiddie porn. Do you see the difference?

The Second Reason I've addressed the more serious offenses of 2907.323:
Debra's ridiculous insistence that Statutory Rape precedence apply. Statutory Rape IS SEX... and if it was filmed it would be kiddie porn... regardless of the age of who filmed and distributed it. Her remedy to save this girl from prosecution would render the underage makers of kiddie porn immune from prosecution right along with her under 2907.323. That remains flat out friggin ridiculous.

Example:
If Debra’s applicability argument, based solely on the age of the girl and lack of other participants was valid: That precedent would allow any kid, girl or boy, to film themselves masturbating, with or without toys, and send that clip to other kids with impunity. There is an obvious community interest in restricting this behavior that extends beyond protecting the person depicted.

That Debra now wants to pretend this is a Straw Man argument demonstrates an utter lack of understanding of legal precedence, even as she attempts to shoehorn an irrelevant precedent into the argument. You cannot nullify the applicability of a statute for the purpose of showing leniency to a relatively innocent offender of same. Such a decision would have terrible (ridiculous) consequences.

Again: There is a tremendous difference between believing the Prosecutor should not apply the law (micro); and claiming that the law doesn't apply (macro).

Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Oct, 2008 11:00 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Occom Bill wrote:
I was arguing against Debra's demented legal interpretation which would render self creating and distributing [to] children completely immune from prosecution under Ohio State statute 2907.323....

My point is that Debra's demented interpretation of the law would green light any kid who did aspire to be a "kiddie porn producer or distributor." to operate with impunity.


Again, you ignore the legislative intent of R.C. 2907.323. Your argument that an interpretation of R.C. 2907.323 that is consistent with public policy and legislative intent is somehow "demented" defies both logic and the law. All the courts in our entire country are required to consider the objects and purposes of the statute in question when applying the statute in order to avoid absurd results.

Again, you ignore the fact, if the material the minor is "creating" and "distributing" to other minors is obscene or harmful (as defined by law), then she can be prosecuted under R.C. 2907.31 (Disseminating material harmful to juveniles). Your argument that an interpretation of R.C. 2907.323 that is consistent with public policy and legislative intent would somehow immunize minors and allow them to distribute "kiddie porn" with impunity has no basis in fact or law.

No matter how many times you create a man of straw and slay him with your insults, it's still a man of straw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man




OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 01:42 am
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

Occom Bill wrote:
I was arguing against Debra's demented legal interpretation which would render self creating and distributing [to] children completely immune from prosecution under Ohio State statute 2907.323....

My point is that Debra's demented interpretation of the law would green light any kid who did aspire to be a "kiddie porn producer or distributor." to operate with impunity.


Again, you ignore the legislative intent of R.C. 2907.323. Your argument that an interpretation of R.C. 2907.323 that is consistent with public policy and legislative intent is somehow "demented" defies both logic and the law. All the courts in our entire country are required to consider the objects and purposes of the statute in question when applying the statute in order to avoid absurd results.
Ridiculous. The intent of the law is to stop the production and distribution of kiddie porn. Charging someone for doing so is hardly an absurd result. Rolling Eyes Only in your demented interpretation is the "intent" limited to protecting the kids depicted. This has been demonstrated false for you repeatedly by the this example: In the event of the child-actor's death; this does NOTHING to reduce, let alone eliminate the applicability of the statute...despite the child-actor no longer needing protection. You substituted your too narrow “legislative intent”, because it was the only way to attempt to shoehorn your irrelevant Statutory Rape precedent in where it doesn’t belong. Basically, you made it up and have been preaching it like it was actual fact ever since.


Debra Law wrote:
Again, you ignore the fact, if the material the minor is "creating" and "distributing" to other minors is obscene or harmful (as defined by law), then she can be prosecuted under R.C. 2907.31 (Disseminating material harmful to juveniles).
I'm forced to give you partial credit here because I haven't always taken care to include the caveat; “under 2907.323” (the statute that specifically addresses child porn)(though I did in the excerpt you're quoting, and I think you've understood that was my intent from the get go)(I mean, obviously, disorderly conduct never really leaves the table). I say partial credit, because the offending child would still be able to create kiddie porn with impunity and she'd still be able to send it to adults with impunity. Hence; her behavior would still fit well within the legislative intent of 2907.323 (stop the creation and distribution of kiddie porn), while being completely outside the parameters of 2907.31. What say you?

Debra Law wrote:
Your argument that an interpretation of R.C. 2907.323 that is consistent with public policy and legislative intent would somehow immunize minors and allow them to distribute "kiddie porn" with impunity has no basis in fact or law.
Nonsense. Your too narrow interpretation of legislative intent is not public policy as demonstrated by the prosecutor in this case. Your attempt to pretend that definition is sound is precisely what's in dispute. Answer this simple question Debra:
If your interpretation of 2907.323 had merit; what statute would apply to a minor who habitually created masturbation porn and sent it to people other than minors?

Do you really think it was the legislative intent to make the creation of child porn illegal only for adults? Really? This remains flat out friggin ridiculous.

The problem remains the same. You instinctually decided this girl is innocent, and have been attempting to duck the obvious legislative intent of 2907.323 (criminalize the production and distribution of child porn) ever since.

Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 01:56 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Occom Bill wrote:
Ridiculous. The intent of the law is to stop the production and distribution of kiddie porn. Charging someone for doing so is hardly an absurd result.


The "intendment of law" means "the true meaning, the correct understanding or intention of the law." You have announced the alleged intention of the law without providing a factual basis for your announcement.

We don't have to engage in guessing games concerning legislative intent. The State of Ohio defended the statute before the United States Supreme Court. Thus, the whole world knows that the legislative purpose of the statute [R.C. § 2907.323] is to protect the victims of child pornography. Osborne v. Ohio, 495 U.S. 103, 109 (1990). The Supreme Court stated:

"It is evident beyond the need for elaboration that a State's interest in safeguarding the physical and psychological well-being of a minor is compelling. . . . The legislative judgment, as well as the judgment found in relevant literature, is that the use of children as subjects of pornographic materials is harmful to the physiological, emotional, and mental health of the child.”

WHY, WHY, WHY, would the legislature hope to stop the production and distribution of child pornography? BECAUSE the legislative intent is to protect the VICTIMS of child pornography. The victims are the children who are the SUBJECTS of the pornographic materials. It is the victim's physiological, emotional, and mental health that the State of Ohio (and every state in the nation) hopes to safeguard. The State of Ohio, as well as every state in the entire nation, protects minors via statutory enactments because--as a matter of law--they lack the capacity to protect themselves.

The prosecutor, Ken Oswalt, made public statements to ABC NEWS. Oswalt said, "There's a totally false perception among juveniles that there is no risk to this. That picture, once taken and sent, gives anyone who receives it the ability to do anything with it, forever. If that picture of you found its way onto the Internet, that's going to haunt you, potentially forever."

Thus, the minor at issue--who lacks the capacity as a matter of law to perceive the risk and the harm--could be haunted for the rest of her life if the "naked picture" she sent to her friends finds its way onto the Internet. So. How does the prosecutor act to protect this minor girl from this harm? He decided to subject this minor girl to a far greater harm that includes branding her as a felonious sex offender. Imposing a conviction for a felony sex offense upon the girl and possibly requiring her to register as a sex offender for the next 20 years will do FAR MORE HARM to the girl than the existence of a naked photo.

In a manner of speaking, if the CURE is far worse than the DISEASE, then few minors (or their parents), if any, would come forward to report crimes. Due to the prosecutor's improper application of the Ohio statute and his self-serving desire to bask in the national publicity, minors and their parents throughout the entire nation will be afraid to come forward. In turn, this places too much power and leverage in the hands of perpetrators.

Using the ARNOLD case posted above, the girls who photographed themselves in a sexually explicit manner and transferred those pictures to ARNOLD in exchange for money and marijuana are VICTIMS. Yet, someone like ARNOLD can now show his victims the Ohio prosecutor's press release and make them very afraid that they too could be prosecuted and convicted of a sex offense and branded as sex offenders.* A perpetrator could use that fear to blackmail the girls into posing for more nude photos or worse--for sexually explicit photos. Even the girls' parents, if they learned of the exploitation, would be afraid to report a perpetrator for fear of incriminating their own daughters.

*The Ohio prosecutor, in his press release and public statements, did not distinguish between nude pictures that are protected expression and pictures that involve a lewd exhibition or graphic focus on a minor's genitals. In short, he has misrepresented to the entire nation that taking, possessing, or transferring pictures showing mere nudity, without more, is a felony offense.

Using a law that was intended to protect VICTIMS as the means to subject them to additional VICTIMIZATION leads to adverse consequences. The legislative purpose is defeated. The result is absurd.

Your interpretation of the statute is UNREASONABLE because it does not serve the purpose to protect minors--it defeats the purpose. Your inability to comprehend this distinction compounds the problem. Some perpetrator of child sex offenses is probably monitoring your arguments and will use those arguments to blackmail his victim into posing for harmful pictures. The perpetrator will convince the minor, if she goes to the police to tell on him, then she will also be incriminating herself and she will be placed in jail and prosecuted as a sex offender--just like the girl in Ohio.

How evil is that Occom Bill? You're in the business of aiding and abetting perpetrators of child sex offenses. Maybe you need to heap your insults upon yourself instead of flinging them at me. If it was YOUR daughter that was being exploited and victimized by a law that was intended to protect her, you would want someone like me to defend her.



Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 02:40 pm
@OCCOM BILL,
Occom Bill wrote:
If your interpretation of 2907.323 had merit; what statute would apply to a minor who habitually created masturbation porn and sent it to people other than minors?


2907.32 Pandering obscenity.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 03:35 pm
@Debra Law,
Quote:
If it was YOUR daughter that was being exploited and victimized by a law that was intended to protect her, you would want someone like me to defend her.


I certainly would.
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 03:56 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
If it was YOUR daughter that was being exploited and victimized by a law that was intended to protect her, you would want someone like me to defend her.


I certainly would.



Thank you, Spendius.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 04:30 pm
Here's another scenario worth discussing:

Quote:
SH man guilty of taking nude photos of minor
Posted by Staff July 18, 2008 23:51PM

A Sagamore Hills man faces eight years in prison after being found guilty of illegal use of a minor in nudity oriented material, a second-degree felony.
Daniel J. Martinson, 23, of Crystal Creek Drive, was found guilty by visiting Judge Ted Schneiderman. Martinson will be sentenced Aug. 15.

According to Summit County Prosecutor Sherri Bevan Walsh's office, Martinson in 2006 convinced a juvenile female he worked for "Voodoo Modeling Agency" and talked her into signing a modeling contract with him. He then proceeded to take multiple naked pictures of the girl, who believed that Martinson was using the photos to get her modeling jobs.

Martinson will be classified as a Tier II Sexual Offender, which will require him to register every six months for 25 years.


LINK TO ARTICLE

QUESTION: Does the taking of "naked pictures," without more, of a 17-year-old girl with her consent constitute a violation of a violation of R.C. Section 2907.323, illegal use of a minor in nudity oriented material?

In a case challenging the constitutionality of R.C. 2907.323(A)(3) under the First Amendment, the Ohio Supreme Court construed the statute as reaching only nudity that either constitutes a lewd exhibition or involves a graphic focus on the genitals. State v. Young, 525 N.E.2d 1363 (1988).

Again, if the nude photos of a 17-year-old girl are neither sexually explicit nor involve a graphic focus on her genitals, has the photographer violated the law?


0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Oct, 2008 04:47 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:

Occom Bill wrote:
If your interpretation of 2907.323 had merit; what statute would apply to a minor who habitually created masturbation porn and sent it to people other than minors?


2907.32 Pandering obscenity.
http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2907
This statute only applies if it is distributed publicly or for profit. It would not apply to the girl for sending her kiddie porn privately, nor would it even address its production. (Substitute adult recipients in this exact case; and it would apply not at all) That is what 2907.323 is for. Would you like to try again? Or would you like to admit that Ohio intends to prosecute the production and distribution of kiddie porn with the statute they created for that purpose? Rolling Eyes

Your attempt to shove the crimes of 2907.323 into several different statutes that do not specifically address the kiddie porn the way 2907.323 does is idiotic. If the legislators intended to immune minors from 2907.323; they would have simply done so. That some producers will also be actors is very predictable, and legislation made no attempt to exclude these persons either.

You put up a good fight, Debra, but your premise remains ridiculous. You still haven't answered why 2907.323 continues to apply long after a minor becomes an adult or perishes. Why? Because it is obvious that legislative intent extends beyond protecting the minor[s] depicted. This is obvious to anyone with a brain in their head, Debra. Your persistent ducking of this fatal flaw in your argument is obvious.



 

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