Was Allied bombing of Germany Jan - April 1945 a war crime?

Well, to get back to the subject, yes I believe that, as stated in the Neurenberg trials all wanton destruction of population centres is a war crime and that therefore bomber Harris should have stood trial alongside Göring. I am in the position that the same Russian pilots that bombed the towns of my country in a war of aggression are considered heroes because they also bombed the Germans later. Our only satisfaction was that those air crews paid a very heavy price for bombing Finnish cities.

And I would also like to point out, on behalf of my mother's side of the family, that the Luftwaffe started terror bombing defenseless cities long before London and Coventry, like in the case of Guernica and Warschau and, particularly (in my case), Rotterdam. It was absolutely not a policy adopted after the RAF bombing of Berlin and, consequently, I am very allergic to Germans complaining about the allied terror bombing of German cities even though I consider it, as stated, a blatant war crime, isn't that the total schizophrenia of war for you!

There is a bizarre side to all of this, which i will point out--and probably be lambasted for it, but what the hell.

Hitler was obsessed with Doheny's contention that terror bombing could destroy a population's will to resist. There actually is some evidence of this among the English and the Germans--but the effect required years of bombing, and was very much secondary to the ground campaigns of the combatants.

Because of Hitler's obsession, the experiential data were ignored. Warsaw had to be taken on the ground, because the bombing did not make the defense cave in. The nighttime bombing raids against English targets did not break the will of the English to resist (their despair came with the V-rockets, much, much later), nor did it have any impact on the will and ability of RAF Bomber Command to retaliate in like kind. Terror bombing in Russia had no impact on the Russian will to resist; and in Stalingrad, it turned the city to rubble, which allowed the Russians to use the ruins to move troops and stage operations without detection by the Germans.

But Hitler persisted in his insistence on the development of bombers. Adolf Galland is quite adamant on this point in his war memoir, and alleges that Germany's excellent (initially) air defense against American daylight raids suffered from Hitler's bomber obsession. The Messerschmidt 262 prototype was flying and ready for production in the spring of 1943--Hitler insisted that it be developed as a bomber. The turbine power plants of the aircraft were more than sufficiently powerful to get the aircraft off the ground with cannon in the nose, and to fly at near-supersonic speeds. They lacked the power to get the aircraft aloft with any useful bomb load.

So, in fact, Hitler's obsession with terror bombing indirectly aided the Allies, in that resources were diverted from or simply not allocated to the interceptors with which Germany could have devasted Allied air attacks.

I am wondering what caused this "obsession"

Your synopsis of terror bombing certainly conforms with my understanding Set.

There is evidence that in the early days of the blitz on London's east end...i.e. the docks...considerable panic ensued. Large numbers of people simply left home and walked out of London. The govt. was well aware of this and of course made sure the rest of the population knew little about it. Instead the movies were full of propaganda pictures of plucky Londoners drinking tea amid the ruins...this did happen of course but it wasnt the full truth.

The V1 and V2 attacks really were terrorising. I only found out recently that at their peak German ballistic missiles were exploding in London at a rate of 10 per DAY. A few more and a bit longer and London would have been uninhabitable.

....and of course it was well known that at the beginning of the war, Germany led the way in atomic fission...

The "what ifs" are amazing. What if the Normandy landings had failed through bad weather? What if Germany had managed to turn back the Russian advance? If the Me262 had been deployed earlier and in larger numbers, the strategic bombing campaign against German cities and oil targets would have failed.

How long would they take to develop an intercontinental ballistic missile with nuclear warhead if Hitler had made it top priority in 1940?

All very much to the point. But the "heavy water" project got short shrift, first from Milch and then from Speer--no immediate bombing application. Von Braun and his playfellows at Peenemunde only got support when they presented their case to Hitler as an opportunity to loft high explosive at Merry Old. The Me 262 was incapable of carrying a bomb load, but it was nevertheless put through ridiculous trials, which its designers knew it would fail, and its appearance on the flight line delayed for more than a year and a half.

All of which reminds me of the "If Hitler had been smart . . . " thread. If Hitler had been smart, he'd not have gotten in so deep, so fast. We should all be thankful that Hitler, in fact, was a very limited man whose only strong suit was gutter politics. We should further be grateful that he had deluded himself into thinking he was a military genius.

Without a doubt, Adolf was the best ally we had on the continent.

"Without a doubt, Adolf was the best ally we had on the continent."

Know what you mean.

I first reacted against the idea that Hitler was dumb. After all he was not unintelligent, and he was physically brave. I think he was driven to do things that with hindsight were patently daft by his passionate belief in national socialism....the "triumph of the will" and all that sh1t. So if the definition of being dumb is doing dumb things, then yes Hitler was indeed dumb.

I don't know that i've said he was dumb. I have characterized him as an idiot before, in reference to specific idiotic things he did, or idiotic policies upon which he insisted (most notably, never surrender, never give up an inch of ground). Whether or not i have, my point has been that he wasn't "smart," he did not act as though he had considered the full ramifications of and the likely consequences of his actions.

well again I agree with you. Dumb was my word. Idiot is probably better.

Sorry, I've never intended to complain.

Yeah ?

Well, cut it out anyway, Walter ! ! !

London suffered its 1st V2 strike 8 September of '44, the rocket impacting in Chiswick, Southwest London. 3 were killed, 17 injured seriously enough to require hospitalization, scores were less hurt, and dozens of buildings, mostly residential, were destroyed or damaged. A second rocket impacted a relatively unbuilt area of Epping at roughly the same time (V2s often were launched in pairs), with no casualties and little damage. Ironically, at a press conference the previous day, the chairman of the War Cabinet Committee for The Defense of London, Churchill's son-in-law Duncan Sandys, had said " ... except possibly for the last few shots the battle of London is over".

Over the next 10 days, a dozen more V2s hit the London area. Of the initial attacks, the deadliest occurred 14 September '44, leaving 14 dead in Brockley, Southeast London. A two-week respite was granted the city by Allied actions in Europe, which overran the launch site in The Netherlands. 3 October '44 saw the next V2 hit London, that one falling in Wanstead. The War Office knew of the V2, but kept news of the weapon from the public until November 10, when Churchill announced in a radio broadcast " ... London is once again under attack". London's single worst V2 casualty toll occurred 25 November '44, when a rocket directly struck a crowded department store during the noon hour, leaving over 170 dead and hundreds injured. Though far less numerous than the V1s, or "Buzz Bombs", the V2s were deadlier; English V1 casualties averaged about 1 killed-per-incident, while the V2 average was around a dozen killed-per-incident.

From October of '44 the attacks continued at a fairly steady rate into March of '45, an average of a bit over 2 rockets a day hitting in or near The City, with other impacts throughout Southern England, most notably Essex, Kent, and Norfolk. The peak of V2 attacks was January-March '45, with weekly impacts of 50 to 60 being common, one week in February seeing 71 impacts throughout the target area. German records show 1359 V2s were launched against Southern England, with 1190 of those launches "successful" in that the rocket left the launch pad. There were some spectacular incidents of failure-at-launch; several tons of propellant and a 1-ton warhead make for significant local devastation. 1150 rockets reached British soil. Somewhat fewer than half of those successfully launched actually struck London, with 518 recorded impacts leaving 2,724 dead and well over 6000 injured severely enough to require treatment. The last 2 missiles fell on England 27 March '45, one destroying a largely Jewish neighborhood, killing 139, the other striking in Kent, killing one.

Largely overlooked is the fact the city of Antwerp suffered 1265 V2 impacts, leaving an estimated 14000 dead.

so whats your point timber?

that london got off lightly?

maybe Hitler still had some regard for the English but not for the Belgians?

I was in Antwerp last year. First thing I noticed was a large memorial plaque to the British and Canadian soldiers killed.

Did not read any of the 22 pages posted. However, to answer the question. No it was retribution for all the "humane acts" of the German people and their leaders.

My point, Steve, is that lotsa folks judge history without knowin' much about it.

I have read anectdotal accounts that the terror induced by the V-2 was due to its silence. The V-1 signalled its approach, and if one heard it go by, one was safe. It was not until the engine shut down that the ordnance was headed for the ground. But the V-2 came in silently, and unsettled the nerves of East-enders who had already endured years of the Blitz.

there were 5,500 deaths in London from the V-1 flying bombs which preceeded the V-2 to add to the terror weapon total

either way you look at it 55,000 British dead due to German bombing is about 55,000 more than all the American civillians killed

over half a million German civillians were killed through allied bombing with one single raid on Dresden killing 80,000 alone

allied bombing
well-known german engineer dr. wernher von braun is considered the father of the famous/infamous german rockets used by germany towards the end of world war II. a quite detailed report about von braun and the history of modern rockets and spacecraft can be found under :...VERGELTUNGSWAFFE...

von braun and his team are by some historians considered as the greatest war reparation that the united states obtained from germany.
von braun apparently said : " the british couldn't afford us, the russians scared us, so we went with the americans".

in the united states he became well known as a guiding force in the further development of rocket science. for his efforts he was awarded the "CONGRESSIONAL MEDAL OF HONOR" - probably the only former nazi official so honoured by the united states! hbg

Gather 'round while I sing you of Wernher von Braun,
A man whose allegiance
Is ruled by expedience.
Call him a Nazi, he won't even frown,
"Ha, Nazi, Schmazi," says Wernher von Braun.

Don't say that he's hypocritical,
Say rather that he's apolitical.
"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.

Some have harsh words for this man of renown,
But some think our attitude
Should be one of gratitude,
Like the widows and cripples in old London town,
Who owe their large pensions to Wernher von Braun.

You too may be a big hero,
Once you've learned to count backwards to zero.
"In German oder English I know how to count down,
Und I'm learning Chinese!" says Wernher von Braun.

-- Tom Lehrer

Re: allied bombing


I believe this is an incorrect statement. Civilians cannot receive the Medal of Honor. I suggest that whoever told you that is pulling your leg.

If anyone wants to do the research, the recipients of the Medal of Honor can be found HERE.

Von Braum recieved the National Medal of Science in 1977.

Rap