14
   

Too Many Topics About US Election May Alienate Some Users

 
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 05:42 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
I, TKO and others are attempting to contribute to the success of a2k...


No you are not. You have an axe to grind and try to align yourself with every dissatisfied member to try to gain support for it.

Quote:
...and are shut out by creators who can't see beyond their egos


What exactly are you "shut out" of Hawkeye?

My ego may be big, but I see your complaints very clearly from here and you don't seem to be having any problems voicing your opinion (ironically about how you aren't able to and how it's all "the regime's" fault that you can't express yourself).
hawkeye10
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 06:15 pm
@Robert Gentel,
I have an axe for close mindedness and incompetence, it is not personally directed.

did you ever read the lit on community design?
Quote:
Regular users will develop a sense of community ownership. As a whole, their content contributions probably outweigh yours. This belief manifests itself in several ways. It can produce a high regard for the status quo, with some users expressing an almost moral outrage when facing community changes. These changes may be as minor as adding a new feature to the Web site or broadening the community's focus.

Another phenomenon is users taking on community responsibilities. Slashdot's moderation and meta-moderation systems use this to apply community standards to user-created content. Perl Monks and Everything 2 treat it slightly differently, with a community-led editorial focus. As each site has grown, relying on the site owners and maintainers would have been a bottleneck. Some communities even resolve disputes and mete out punishments judged by a group of community leaders. Moderators of mailing lists and newsgroups often use this approach.

The responsibilities may also be individually-perceived and not explicit. For example, the Perl Monks Statistical Page is a volunteer effort not directly connected to the main site -- a subcommunity of sorts. Community members saw a need and filled it themselves. Volunteers also collate helpful links for new Perl Monks, though a hand-picked group maintains a FAQ.

Besides letting community leaders and members perform administrative work (content production, content moderation, software development, content rating, the donation of hardware or bandwidth fees), don't forget that the community has a stake in its own future. Even if you pay for everything out of your pocket, your work is wasted without users.

http://www.oreillynet.com/pub/a/network/2002/10/21/community.html

don't try to paint my behaviour here as a violation of norms, my behaviour is what you should have expected from those who feel invested in a2k
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 06:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:
did you ever read the lit on community design?

Quote:
Regular users will develop a sense of community ownership. As a whole, their content contributions probably outweigh yours. This belief manifests itself in several ways. It can produce a high regard for the status quo, with some users expressing an almost moral outrage when facing community changes. These changes may be as minor as adding a new feature to the Web site or broadening the community's focus.


Sure, and I know that changing the site would cause users like you to blame it for their unpopularity or to attach other emotions onto the change. No matter what change took place this was going to be present and comes with the territory.

When the criticism is objective something can be done about it, but when that sense of ownership balloons out of proportion (like when you started saying you were a customer) and tries to speak for all (like when you claim that there's greater attrition for others because of the changes you don't like) it's useful to refute.

It's certainly not unexpected.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  -1  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 07:31 pm
@Robert Gentel,
RG - I'm calling your bluff.

You said the solution is to "agree to disagree and move on," but I think you just want the last word.

I have not overstated my opinion. I've spoken for myself and my experience. You seem to acknowledge that my preference some from familiarity, yet you assert my opinion originates in an "impression."

Which is it? Am I an observer of the site, or am I interacting with it actively?

You don't agree to disagree. Your annoyance with my line of questions and concerns with receive the same attention you give them. If I'm expected to be compassionate or patient with your hurdles, I expect the same compassion /patience with hearing my concerns.

I can think of one thing I demand, and that is when members are being harassed that some action or plan is in place by the Mods. "Mods" is still short for "Moderator" isn't it? Kind of a meaningless title otherwise.

As for site ergonomics/function...

Tell me what it is that I demand?
K
O
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 07:39 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:
RG - I'm calling your bluff.

You said the solution is to "agree to disagree and move on," but I think you just want the last word.


As to your opinions on intuitiveness on the subjective matters I really do just need to agree to disagree. You can feel free to have the last word on that general criticism. If you make specific claims that aren't true I'll likely point them out though.

As to the annoyance of the complaining ad nauseum I'll probably keep having my say on that.

Quote:
I have not overstated my opinion. I've spoken for myself and my experience. You seem to acknowledge that my preference some from familiarity, yet you assert my opinion originates in an "impression."

Which is it? Am I an observer of the site, or am I interacting with it actively?


Both. You interact with the site, and you also have subjective impressions about the site that you overstate and extrapolate to others.

Quote:
You don't agree to disagree. Your annoyance with my line of questions and concerns with receive the same attention you give them. If I'm expected to be compassionate or patient with your hurdles, I expect the same compassion /patience with hearing my concerns.


I've had a lot of patience with it Diest. I'm not sure I can muster much more and that's a legitimate criticism people can have about me.

I don't have enough patience for this kind of thing.

Quote:
I can think of one thing I demand, and that is when members are being harassed that some action or plan is in place by the Mods.


And others still will demand that the administration of the site doesn't cave to your demands about how it's run.

Quote:
"Mods" is still short for "Moderator" isn't it? Kind of a meaningless title otherwise.


Meaningless if they don't run the site how you demand?

Quote:
As for site ergonomics/function...

Tell me what it is that I demand?


Answers, explanations and arguments for one, like this line you've repeated several times now: "I still haven't seen any explanations..."

So you have an explanation, you also have criticism for the incessant complaining.


Yes, I could be more patient with this (and even ignore it more often) but there is a difference between constructive criticism and being a negative Nancy and when the criticism is not constructive and is annoying I'll express my opinion of it.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  -3  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 09:38 pm
Burden of leadership RG. You signed up.

I haven't told you how to run the site, only that you run it.
I don't tell you where to drive with demands, only demand that you drive, because you're the bus driver.

Your ego is flirting with ethical boundaries. You are allowing personal feelings to manifest into some statements to users which could be considered inappropriate.

You said to let it be done. So take your own advice.

T
K
O



Robert Gentel
 
  5  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 09:45 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:
Your ego is flirting with ethical boundaries. You are allowing personal feelings to manifest into some statements to users which could be considered inappropriate.


Nonsense, I have every right to express my personal feelings of annoyance as well. This isn't a one way street where you have the right to criticize and I don't.

For how much you criticize you sure have think skin when any criticism comes your way.
Diest TKO
 
  -2  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 11:17 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

Diest TKO wrote:
Your ego is flirting with ethical boundaries. You are allowing personal feelings to manifest into some statements to users which could be considered inappropriate.


Nonsense, I have every right to express my personal feelings of annoyance as well. This isn't a one way street where you have the right to criticize and I don't.

For how much you criticize you sure have think skin when any criticism comes your way.

You're the bus driver. You signed up. It is a one way street. The site ultimately goes in the direction you choose. Your opinion comes with a greater responsibility than any other opinion here RG.

As for criticism coming my way, the only relevant criticism in this thread I've received has been to try and contribute and create other topics that weren't about US politics. I took that criticism to heart and have taken that advice and created other topics. You're criticism is just personal character assaults at this point hence the stop-and-listen-to-yourself reminder I was offering.

Your contempt is unwarranted and I think as a leader your supposed to be setting a high community standard here, not acting defensive about the choices you've made for the site in defense of your ego. Thick skin, I've got in plenty.

The burden of leadership. Your prerogative.
K
O
Robert Gentel
 
  5  
Reply Sun 12 Oct, 2008 11:35 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:
You're the bus driver. You signed up. It is a one way street. The site ultimately goes in the direction you choose. Your opinion comes with a greater responsibility than any other opinion here RG.


That has nothing to do with whether or not I can criticize you and that's the one-way street that I was referring to that you seem to prefer.

You are liberal with your criticism of me but want to portray my criticism of you as bad leadership and "unethical". That's just plain nonsense.

Quote:
You're criticism is just personal character assaults at this point...


Well then they've finally caught up to yours, which have always been. If things don't go your way it's bad "leadership" and when I criticize you it's because of my "ego" and it's "unethical".

Yet when I tell you that going on about this ad nauseum is annoying this is a "personal character assault"?

Quote:
Your contempt is unwarranted and I think as a leader your supposed to be setting a high community standard here, not acting defensive about the choices you've made for the site in defense of your ego. Thick skin, I've got in plenty.


I don't have contempt for you, I just find the incessant complaints annoying and this too has nothing to do with "high community standards".

Since when does not criticizing you equate to "high community standards"? Since when is trying to portray criticism of you as "unethical" constitute "thick skin"?

You sure can dish it out, and demand explanations and answers. But when I give them if I'm critical of you it's "unethical" and bad "leadership". I can see the convenience of such a position, but it certainly doesn't constitute "thick skin".
Diest TKO
 
  -2  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 12:13 am
@Robert Gentel,
The point you're missing RG is that you're not offering any criticism. You're only insulting me. I'm challenging you to grow up and take the advice you dish out to others.

You claimed you wanted to "agree to disagree, and then move on." I offered you that point to exit with grace but your oneupmanship ego is getting the better of you. The leader of a community sets the bar.

You advice when it came time to deal with harassing trolls was to look away and ignore, essentially turn the other cheek. I find it funny that you can ask me to walk away from someone insulting my existence, but have no ability to "move on" yourself from someone like myself which has offered you several ways out without even having to turn your cheek.

I accept this is the way it is. You're in control. I can accept that. You can't seem to accept criticism, and are trying to make this a referendum on me, a user.

This is your show. Not mine.
K
O
Robert Gentel
 
  5  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 12:36 am
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:
The point you're missing RG is that you're not offering any criticism. You're only insulting me.


No, I'm offering many specific criticisms you find insulting. And because you feel insulted by them I won't bother to repeat them. I think if you thought about it you'd identify a couple specific ones.

Quote:
You claimed you wanted to "agree to disagree, and then move on."


I said that about something else entirely and that doesn't mean that I'll not have a go at a new disagreement that comes up, but at this point I don't see a reason to keep talking in circles about this either.

Quote:
I offered you that point to exit with grace but your oneupmanship ego is getting the better of you. The leader of a community sets the bar.


I just don't see this as about grace, saving face and oneopmanship. That's taking internet disagreements a bit too seriously for me.

Quote:
You advice when it came time to deal with harassing trolls was to look away and ignore, essentially turn the other cheek. I find it funny that you can ask me to walk away from someone insulting my existence, but have no ability to "move on" yourself from someone like myself which has offered you several ways out without even having to turn your cheek.


I wasn't recommending that you try to get others to ignore you when you are offended, but rather that you ignore them when you are offended. If I were that offended by you I would certainly take my own advice.

Quote:
You can't seem to accept criticism, and are trying to make this a referendum on me, a user.


I can be impatient, dismissive and rude, but I can also take criticism. As I've said, my qualm is not with the criticism part but the ad nauseum part. I'm sure I could be even more patient, and even more diplomatic and those are legitimate criticisms about me that you made. I said it was annoying and the intention wasn't to make it a referendum on you so much as just express my opinion about that particular annoyance.

My qualm is about anything ad nauseum being annoying, and that is indeed advice I should take for myself as this argument about the argument has gone on ad nauseum and I've done my fair share of making it do so.

I don't care about having the last word, but I do tend to be opinionated and can get caught up in the same thing I am criticizing of not letting go when it's long past being edifying to anyone.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  -4  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 12:36 am
@Diest TKO,
P.S. - To be fair, I just reread this thread to see the progression of the dialog to see if I said something to provoke your hostility. The conversation was pretty civil, until you kicked in the door with your "armchair quarterbacks" statement.

You derailed the thread comrade. Congrats.

Moving on and voting this thread down. Peace.

T
K
O
nimh
 
  5  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 10:19 am
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:

The conversation was pretty civil, until you kicked in the door with your "armchair quarterbacks" statement. You derailed the thread comrade. Congrats.

I'm pretty sure that few here agree with your assessment. (The post voting and the responses by others to your posts also suggests that few do.)

Armchair quarterbacking isnt much of an insult, let alone one that "kicks in the door". It's just a description of certain behaviour, and it certainly fitted yours.
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  2  
Reply Mon 13 Oct, 2008 12:06 pm
Deist: Beyond your very reasonable complaint that too little was being done to reduce the onslaught of racial slurs; you're mostly just making an ass of yourself. (One might notice that two of the most complained about trolls have recently disappeared or been disappeared as well.)To the extent usability isn't yet top notch; the man already explained that more improvements are coming. Wasting his time making him hold your hand and repeat, "I understand your concerns and I’m working on it", isn’t helping. I agree with Nimh’s assessment that few people viewed that exchange in the light you’d like to think. Mostly they saw Robert going way out of his way to acknowledge your incessant whining at all.
0 Replies
 
 

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