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The White Flagof Surrender

 
 
Reply Sat 4 Oct, 2008 11:38 pm
The White Flag of Surrender seems to be the catchword to label those who oppose the Iraq War. But the great leader of the Republican Party himself declared: “Mission Accomplished!” Does this not mean victory? American forces occupy Baghdad, the capital, so what has the Republican Party have in mind, the United States of Arabia with Iraq the 51st state?

The real White Flag of Surrender waved by the Republicans is the surrender to temptation of greed of oil and money witness the financial crisis. They don’t want regulations i.e. freedom from oversight and checking so they can go their merry way and loot the public and the treasury. They can create bogus certificates and take public lands or properties give them to private hands (their Republican buddies who run the corporations)
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Type: Discussion • Score: 2 • Views: 1,816 • Replies: 23
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 01:57 am
@talk72000,
Yeah, yeah, yeah...

Withdrawing our troops from Iraq before we can leave a stable and secure nation is tantamount to surrender.

Unless you think that the Obama defined liberal strategy for ending the war will not lead to chaos in Iraq, you are waving the White Flag.

And it will.

Obama's argument counts on (what's new?) populist sentiments.

"We're spending zillions of dollars in Iraq while they have a surplus!"

"Let’s let the Iraqis take care of themselves!"

Such arguments will, undoubtedly, win votes, but will Obama actually be negligent enough to act on them?

I doubt it, for no other reason than he doesn't want to be the President of the USA when Iraq melts down. He can blame Bush all he wants, but he will be the guy in charge when the carnage begins and al-Qaeda reconstitutes.

It's foolish, at best, to think that the American people will vote based on overly broad promises and accusations, but will, suddenly, appreciate nuance once you are elected. Live and get elected by The Sword, and die and lose office by The Sword.





talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 05:04 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Iraq was stable and nobody invited W to invade. His invasion destabilized Iraq and the US economy.
Woiyo9
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 06:29 am
@talk72000,
Iraq was stable? Drunk
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 12:44 pm
@Woiyo9,
It was until Bush attacked it. There is a difference between being unstable and being run by a dictator. If we attacked every dictatorship in the world we would be fighting a world war. If you dident drink so much you could see the difference.
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 04:01 pm
@rabel22,
Well ... Iraq was stable in the same way that the old Soviet Union was stable under the benevolent hand of Joseph Stalin. Saddam's Iraq failed to comply with the conditions of the cease fire, so the U.S. intervention wasn't exactly an unprovoked attack out of the blue. Iraq was openly supporting international terrorist acts, and projecting the image of a nation that had, or would soon have nuclear, chemical and biological weapons. That Iraq brutally tortured and killed its own citizens almost on a whim. That was the Iraq that used chemical weapons in its long war on Iran, and that invaded Kuwait to avoid repaying loans. Yep, Iraq was stable and obviously no danger to anyone. Sure.


JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 04:11 pm
@Asherman,
Doesn't the Buddhist faith have strictures against lying?
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 04:12 pm
Is a continued US presence in Iraq un-necessary? Could those "zillions" of dollars be better spent somewhere else, like on expanded Liberally blueprinted social programs? Here are two voices paraphrased from opposite sides in the War on Terror.

"Iraq is the most important battleground, and it must be won." ... Osama Bin Ladin

"The US military continues to be an essential element in building a peaceful and stable Iraq." ... Gen. Paetrus

Bin Ladin regards victory in Iraq as of fundamental importance, and our most successful General would regard an American withdrawal at this time a disaster. The surge worked to reverse and reduce the violence, just as Sen. McCain predicted. To set a deadline for withdrawal would send a signal to the radical terrorists that all they have to do is wait and victory will be theirs. There is a great difference between leaving before and after the mission has been completed. Leave with the job undone, and we'll have to return under even worse circumstances. Leave with a stable and effective Iraqi government, and it will be more difficult for radicals in the region to export their murderous Jihad.
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 04:17 pm
@JTT,
Are you trying to make some sort of implication? Nothing in my post immediately above qualifies as a "lie". Its all factual.

Buddhism is fundamentally about living in such a manner as to mitigate suffering. The perceptual universe is illusory, and "Truth" is only found in the indivisible Oneness of the Ultimate Reality beyond time and space.

It seems I've written a number of short essays lately about "lying", and the twisted spin that folks put on "un-truths" during emotionally hot political campaigns. If you want my views on "lying" read some of those posts.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 04:19 pm
@Asherman,
It appears that it doesn't. Funny that. Most religions at least give lip service to it.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 04:23 pm
@Asherman,
Quote:
Are you trying to make some sort of implication? Buddhism is fundamentally about living in such a manner as to mitigate suffering.


And yet you constantly and unremittingly endorse ideas that seek to heap as much suffering and death upon those outside the US. In order to do that you have to repeat, often and unremittingly, the lies of your government. Have you no shame, Asherman? Have you no sense of right and wrong?
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 04:56 pm
@JTT,
I have supported my nation and its leadership in responding to the terrorist strategy of the Radical Islamic Movement. It is that movement that intentionally inflicts terror and mass murder on the innocent. That group of cowardly fanatics have been threatening and carrying out terrorist operations against this country, the West and Israel for many decades. They are like rabid dogs, who infect and kill indiscriminately. One shoots a mad dog before it attacks one's family, or your next door neighbor.

If an individual arms themselves and begin shooting members of the public, isn't the use of deadly force by the police justified by protecting the public? When our military goes into combat there will without doubt be casualties among our forces and the enemy, and if the enemy is without uniform or disciplined formations and hides behind the skirts of little girls, there will be an unusual number of unintended civilian casualties as well. We have not sent our soldiers to fight on foreign soil to subjugate them, but rather to liberate and assist those captive peoples to acquire the same liberties that we value ourselves. America has been the arsenal and shield of Democracy and Enlightenment ideals for over two hundred years, and we remain a beacon of hope for the downtrodden still.

I don't see any reprehensible lies told by the the U.S. Government, though a number of mistakes, misunderstandings and mis-communications exist. That is the case for all governments everywhere and at any time in history you might cite. Intentional mis-statements like those we associate with the Fascist and Communist governments of the world are a rare thing with the U.S. government. There are accusations, but in considering the sources of those accusations (Al Queda, Iran, DPRK, Russia, Chavez, Castro, and the Living-room Leftists of our own), I prefer believing in our elected leadership.

I'm not in the least ashamed of my patriotism, or loyalty to the Constitution and nation. We are an imperfect nation, but a nation never the less whose intentions and actions have been guided by the highest ideals.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 05:20 pm
@Asherman,
Quote:
I'm not in the least ashamed of my patriotism, or loyalty to the Constitution and nation. We are an imperfect nation, but a nation never the less whose intentions and actions have been guided by the highest ideals.


You blindly support the terrorists actions of the US government because you've never been able to think for yourself. You've swallowed the lies since grade school. The US does not do things for other countries out of generosity. They do it out of self interest.

Generosity does not mean that you illegally invade sovereign nations based on a pack of lies. Generosity does not mean that you heap shock and awe on a country you are trying to help. Generosity does not mean that you enrich your cronies and political hacks while doing nothing for a country you mercilessly bombed.

When I see your name at the start of a posting, Asherman, I could pretty much write it myself. It's the usual tripe, providing lies and excuses for the most barbaric of acts.

I don't expect that you'll ever change. You've pretty much "nnnnnnooooooommmmmmmed" your way into a state of mental obliviousness. The truth isn't something you like or want. Better to just repeat the mantras.

Let's look at just one example of a group that "intentionally inflicts terror and mass murder on the innocent". Do you know how many Vietnamese died in that illegal invasion? Do you know how many Nicaraguans were murdered with Reagan support, completely illegal support I might add. Why not do a little research, Asherman and get back to me? You might learn something.
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 05:29 pm
@JTT,
i hope there is not too much objection to a link to the post :

IRAQI WOMEN - LIFE TODAY

http://able2know.org/topic/123546-1#post-3426458
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 05:31 pm
@hamburger,
That's very helpful, Hamburger. I was going to do it myself.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 07:37 pm
@JTT,
And you shamelessly applaud terrorist actions against the United States, the West and Israel. Why is that? You believe the lies promulgated by those who hate the United States, but of course they are all generous and acting without self interest.

The United States didn't illegally, or improperly attack either Vietnam, or Iraq, but that's a lie you enjoy spreading. The generosity of the Communists and Radical Islamic governments of the world are well known and amply document in their private "Killing Fields". The United States has contributed much of its blood and treasure to helping those in need. Of course, the Europeans have conveniently forgotten the Marshal Plan, and the long decades when the United States was the only thing standing between them and the Soviet Worker's Paradise. The U.S. utilizes very expensive guided ordinance, not to spare as many civilians as possible, but only to enrich Republican supporters. Sure, pull my other one now.

Seeing your name at the head of a posting, means its the usual tripe of lies, misrepresentations and hatred for the United States, while finding excuses for the most barbaric acts of cowardly murderers who target intentionally women and children.

You will certainly never change, because you are a True Believer in Utopian dreams. Truth? You wouldn't know it if it spit in your face, so you just keep repeating the same old Marxist line.

JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 08:31 pm
@Asherman,
Quote:
And you shamelessly applaud terrorist actions against the United States, the West and Israel. Why is that? You believe the lies promulgated by those who hate the United States, but of course they are all generous and acting without self interest.


Another interesting Asherman lie. Where might I have said that I applaud any terrorists action against any country, Sir?

Quote:
Ash: The United States didn't illegally, or improperly attack either Vietnam, or Iraq, but that's a lie you enjoy spreading.


Both were illegal invasions. Both were predicated on lies. In both invasions, the number of natives who died were disproportionately high compared to US losses.

Quote:
Ash:
The generosity of the Communists and Radical Islamic governments of the world are well known and amply document in their private "Killing Fields". The United States has contributed much of its blood and treasure to helping those in need.


Only a person bereft of any semblance of morality would think of pointing to another set of murders to cover up one's own misdeeds.

Quote:
Ash: Of course, the Europeans have conveniently forgotten the Marshal Plan, and the long decades when the United States was the only thing standing between them and the Soviet Worker's Paradise.


Quote:
"To maintain this position of disparity (U.S. economic-military

supremacy)... we will have to dispense with all sentimentality and

day-dreaming.... We should cease to talk about vague and... unreal

objectives such as human rights, the raising of the living standard and

democratization. The day is not far off when we are going to have to

deal in straight power concepts.... The less we are then hampered by

idealistic slogans, the better." - George Kennan [Director of Policy Planning U.S.

State Department 1948]


Quote:
Ash: The U.S. utilizes very expensive guided ordinance, not to spare as many civilians as possible, but only to enrich Republican supporters. Sure, pull my other one now.


Yeah, carpet bombing, cluster bombs, napalm and phosphorus bombs are so highly selective.

Quote:
Officials quoted by AP, however, say America's newest precision-guided bombs performed far worse than that, hitting fewer than 50% of targeted radars.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1184086.stm


Quote:
Ash:
... while finding excuses for the most barbaric acts of cowardly murderers who target intentionally women and children. ... Truth? You wouldn't know it if it spit in your face, so you just keep repeating the same old Marxist line.


Quote:
"Death squads have been created and used by the CIA around the world

particularly the Third World - since the late 1940s, a fact ignored by

the elite-owned media." -Ralph McGehee [Former CIA analyst & Author]

CIABASE; The Crisis of Democracy Deadly Deceits: My 25 years in the CIA



Quote:
"The U.S.A. has supplied arms, security equipment and training to

governments and armed groups that have committed torture, political

killings and other human rights abuses in countries around the world."

-Amnesty International ["United States of America - Rights for All"

October 1998]

parados
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 08:56 pm
@JTT,
JTT,
The US didn't invade a sovereign country for the Vietnam war. They came to the aid of a propped up dictator that was fighting a civil war supported by North Korea. They were asked to help by the ruling government under a treaty they had signed.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 09:05 pm
@Asherman,
Quote:
Asherman surmised, incorrectly:
You will certainly never change, because you are a True Believer in Utopian dreams.


Actually, that has nothing at all to do with it, Ash, ole buddy. I just think that everyone should be held to the same standards that the US mouths but never follows.

Quote:
Backyard terrorism
The US has been training terrorists at a camp in Georgia for years - and it's still at it

George Monbiot The Guardian,
Tuesday October 30 2001


"If any government sponsors the outlaws and killers of innocents," George Bush announced on the day he began bombing Afghanistan, "they have become outlaws and murderers themselves. And they will take that lonely path at their own peril." I'm glad he said "any government", as there's one which, though it has yet to be identified as a sponsor of terrorism, requires his urgent attention.

For the past 55 years it has been running a terrorist training camp, whose victims massively outnumber the people killed by the attack on New York, the embassy bombings and the other atrocities laid, rightly or wrongly, at al-Qaida's door. The camp is called the Western Hemisphere Institute for Security Cooperation, or Whisc. It is based in Fort Benning, Georgia, and it is funded by Mr Bush's government.

Until January this year, Whisc was called the "School of the Americas", or SOA. Since 1946, SOA has trained more than 60,000 Latin American soldiers and policemen. Among its graduates are many of the continent's most notorious torturers, mass murderers, dictators and state terrorists. As hundreds of pages of documentation compiled by the pressure group SOA Watch show, Latin America has been ripped apart by its alumni.

In June this year, Colonel Byron Lima Estrada, once a student at the school, was convicted in Guatemala City of murdering Bishop Juan Gerardi in 1998. Gerardi was killed because he had helped to write a report on the atrocities committed by Guatemala's D-2, the military intelligence agency run by Lima Estrada with the help of two other SOA graduates. D-2 coordinated the "anti-insurgency" campaign which obliterated 448 Mayan Indian villages, and murdered tens of thousands of their people. Forty per cent of the cabinet ministers who served the genocidal regimes of Lucas Garcia, Rios Montt and Mejia Victores studied at the School of the Americas.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/30/afghanistan.terrorism19
0 Replies
 
talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Sun 5 Oct, 2008 11:28 pm
@Asherman,
Yet Reagan supplied the weapons of mass destruction to Saddam in the war against Iran with Donald Rumsfeld as Defense Secretary shaking Saddam's hand when he delivered the goods. Reagan remaining silent all thru the human rights violation shows the Republicans were complicit in the whole affair by their tacit approval. Pres. George H.W. Bush caught Reagan's napping disease when Saddam complained about Kuwait's siphoning of Iraqi oil using horizontal drilling. Bush stated that 'what Arabs do to Arabs was no concern to America'. For a whole week Bush stood by as Saddam took matters into his own hands and sent tanks into Kuwait. Saudi Arabia alarmed by this wanted Bush to take care of Saddam and so Bush told Saddam to get out of Kuwait but Saddam refused. That is how an ally of America became an enemy thru Reagan's napping disease. American foreign policy or just napping on the job?
0 Replies
 
 

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