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"Challenge the powers that uphold illusion"

 
 
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 05:06 pm
I've decided to get out of the Politics threads out there in A2K in large part because I believe that to continue the exchange -- as though on a level ground, an equal basis -- with the radical Right is to give them more credibility than they deserve. I think we need to send the message that their attitudes and behaviors belong among the crushed beer cans on the dorm floor on a Saturday night -- at best.

We have been wading through, being reasonable about, and possibly helping them sustain their myths about our nation.

As Schell suggests in his article (below), we really must "challenge the powers that uphold the illusion."



Quote:
This article can be found on the web at
http://www.thenation.com/doc.mhtml?i=20031006&s=schell
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Letter From Ground Zero
by JONATHAN SCHELL

[from the October 6, 2003 issue]

Sometimes when I feel I want to raise my voice against the American folly in Iraq, my zeal is infected with boredom. I get the urge to say that the war in Iraq is worsening the nuclear proliferation problem (Iran and North Korea are speeding up their nuclear programs in part in order to avoid regime change); that there is no proven alliance between Saddam Hussein and Al Qaeda; that we are inflaming the peoples of the Middle East against us; that we are driving away even our traditional European allies by our highhanded policies; that we are making ourselves less secure, not more. But then I realize that these things are by now obvious, and to state what is obvious is boring. I want to say them not because they are fresh and interesting but because they are not heeded. But if to state the obvious is boring, then to repeat it is the very definition of boredom. The point was impressed on me when I read a quotation in the indispensable website Tomdispatch (www.tomdispatch.org) from President George H.W. Bush's memoir, A World Transformed, which was written with Brent Scowcroft. Bush was talking about why he did not overthrow Saddam Hussein at the end of the first Gulf War:

Quote:
Trying to eliminate Saddam...would have incurred incalculable human and political costs. Apprehending him was probably impossible.... We would have been forced to occupy Baghdad and, in effect, rule Iraq.... there was no viable "exit strategy" we could see, violating another of our principles. Furthermore, we had been self-consciously trying to set a pattern for handling aggression in the post-Cold War world. Going in and occupying Iraq, thus unilaterally exceeding the United Nations' mandate, would have destroyed the precedent of international response to aggression that we hoped to establish. Had we gone the invasion route, the United States could conceivably still be an occupying power in a bitterly hostile land.


I couldn't have said it better myself. And this was written five years ago, by the father of the current President. So much for feeling brilliant for insisting upon such things now.

I'm reminded of my experience as one of those who opposed the war in Vietnam. In the mid-to-late 1960s, we tirelessly pointed out that the war was mainly a nationalist rebellion against foreign occupation, not mainly an advance probe of world Communism; that the issue could only be solved politically, not militarily; that the war was weakening, not strengthening, the United States; that the only solution was to withdraw America troops--and so on and so forth. We considered ourselves brave for saying such things, all of which were rejected by mainstream opinion. And yet at that time, too, the antiwar arguments were obvious, or soon became so. Just how obvious is revealed by Kai Bird's excellent biography of William and McGeorge Bundy, The Color of Truth. Bird reveals that as assistant secretary of state, William Bundy--widely seen as a Vietnam hawk--confessed in a 1964 paper that "a bad colonial heritage of long standing, totally inadequate preparation for self-government by the colonial power, a colonialist war fought in half-baked fashion and lost, a nationalist movement taken over by Communism ruling in the other half of an ethnically and historically united country, the Communist side inheriting much the better military force and far more than its share of the talent--these are the facts that dog us today." Bird says that in this sentence Bundy prefigured "just about all the points that I.F. Stone, Bernard Fall or other early critics of the war would make within a year."

Even more striking is a conversation in 1964 between President Lyndon Johnson and Richard Russell, chairman of the Senate Armed Services committee. "I don't believe the American people ever want me to [abandon Vietnam]," Johnson told Russell. "If I lose it, I think they'll say I've lost it.... At the same time, I don't want to commit us to a war." Russell's answer was a prophecy that turned out to be exact. A full-scale effort would "take a half million men." he said. "They'd be bogged down in there ten years." In short, all the arguments against the war were privately well-known--obvious--to the Administration. Yet it plunged deeper and deeper into the war.

Why? There appear to be two closely related answers. One is political. As Johnson's comment hints, ever since the United States had "lost" China to Communism in 1949, it was considered politically fatal to "lose" another country. As McGeorge Bundy wrote to Johnson, "The political damage to Truman and Acheson from the fall of China arose because most Americans came to believe that we could and should have done more than we did to prevent it. This is exactly what would happen now if we should seem to be the first to quit in Saigon." The second answer was strategic. Policy-makers of the day believed that nothing in the foreign policy of the United States was more important than American "credibility." If American power was defeated anywhere, they believed, it might crumble everywhere. The idea of a strategic retreat was ruled out. Both motives, then, had to do with power--in the first place, domestic political power, in the second, global power.

Today, too, the obvious is trumped by the argument of power. The need therefore is not just to produce more facts and better arguments (though those are always needed) but to challenge the powers that uphold illusion. The best antidote is the counterforce of public opinion, which means, in the last analysis, the force of voting. Today, as in Vietnam thirty years ago, it is possible to win this battle. In the Vietnam years, public opinion gradually changed. It drove a President--Lyndon Johnson--out of office. It forced another, Richard Nixon, to end the war, and then he was driven out of office, too. Today, public opinion is already shifting. A recent ABC-Washington Post poll records that 60 percent of the public opposes George W. Bush's request to Congress for $87 billion for the war. The antiwar candidate Howard Dean has become the acknowledged front-runner for the Democratic nomination. In some polls, Bush's overall approval ratings are in negative territory. This is the kind of argument that Presidents understand.

The question is, How many more people, American and Iraqi, will have to lose their lives to teach our leaders the obvious?
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Dartagnan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 05:16 pm
Schell makes excellent points here, Tartarin. Interesting that Bush Sr. was so articulate (and prescient) on what would happen if the US ever tried to "take out" Saddam. Which, curiously enough, still hasn't been achieved, though all the negative outcomes he predicted have come true.

As for your quitting the non-PUP political threads, I hope you'll reconsider. If too many people do the same, A2K runs the risk of turning into Abuzz. That's what happened there, among other things. I'd hoped there'd be more policing of inappropriate posts here (especially ad hominem attacks) but the philosophy seems to be "live and let live." All very well, but if we start losing people, then there's a problem...
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PDiddie
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 05:32 pm
Nice.

I posted that excerpt from Poppy's book in the US/UN/Iraq thread to stunning silence from the right.

Al Gore's speech for MoveOn.org hit all the nails as well; "something has gone seriously wrong in our country..."

And here's some from Paul Krugman's The Great Unraveling:

Quote:
but that absolutely nothing can reassure it
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PDiddie
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 05:35 pm
And the good news?

The ground is swelling:

Quote:
Despite all that money (a reference to Bush's fundraising), at least some political professionals think Bush can be beaten. "The mathematics is becoming more and more plausible every day," Geoff Garin, of Peter Hart Research Associates, told the Village Voice. A Gallup poll last week showed Bush's approval down to 52 percent. Pollsters found Bush leading a Democrat (not a particular one) by only four points, 47-43. "Bush still enjoys an advantage as commander in chief," said Garin, "but the value of that advantage has declined substantially over the past few weeks as people come to see Iraq as less compelling a success. And because the national-security situation has diminished, Bush's economic vulnerabilities weigh more heavily in the balance."

A new Hart poll shows that by an 11-point margin people say they are more dissatisfied than satisfied with the direction of the country. "The votes are there," said Garin, "and the ingredients in terms of public opinion and public attitudes are there. And the electoral votes are there: It only takes a switch of one state."
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edgarblythe
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 05:38 pm
I sort of walk around the the far right wingers whom I consider offensive. I slip in and say something if I wish, but rarely engage these people, because I know they don't really absorb what the left tells them. They just want a stage from which to spout off. I agree with D'artagnan that we should not abandon the mainstream threads to the right, for the same reasons he gave.
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Acquiunk
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 06:38 pm
I was formulating a lengthy defences of continued participation but D'artagnan and edger said it succinctly. To quit is to run.
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 07:07 pm
I third Dart's post.
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Butrflynet
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 07:16 pm
I think we need to make more of an effort to just not respond to the obvious trolls who argue just for argument sake and like to poke pointy sticks at people to see if they'll react. This includes the cutesy thread hijackings some do in an attempt to diffuse/discourage the trolls. It is still a response and they love the attention.
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hobitbob
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 07:28 pm
One of them appears to haev gone, one is mellowing and turning into a real poster (the newest one) and the third I just scroll through anymore.
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Butrflynet
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 07:37 pm
To be honest, hobitbob, you've missed a few. They reside on both sides of the aisle and it isn't restricted to the newcomers.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 08:55 pm
I'll second that.
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Tartarin
 
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Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 09:12 pm
Mamajuana's last email to me (just before she died, evidently) had to do with a idea we had for starting a series of somewhat deeper, more challenging discussions here in PUP about the trials and tribulations of opposing what many of us feel to be a dangerous series of events.

And, frankly, to have an ongoing conversation among friends whose civility is known and reliable, even though we may differ a little or a lot about the details, has real appeal after the Politics discussions.

The details of what? Well, we start with a basic notion that I think most of us agree about: that the country is indeed "unraveling."

Obviously, not many of the self-styled conservatives are operating from that premise. Others of us, though, feel quite strongly about it. I believe that initiating such discussions in the main forum has proven unpleasant and ultimately impossible -- we find ourselves being labelled everything from "negative" to "not real Americans." It's a silly waste of time in my view.

But we do have, thanks to PDiddie, a place to work through some of the issues which have tended to get bulldozed in the larger forum.

When we get right down to it, we don't all agree. I think Butrflynet's approach is often useful, but I have to admit (after three years on Abuzz and almost a year here) "Been there, done that!"

So I hope to turn to PUP, instead of the Politics forum, for raising the difficult issues which come with being members of the opposition, or to post materials which are germaine to discussions, past and future. The purpose is not so much to reach a compromise as to challenge and elucidate.

We have tended to be less self-challenging in the open forum: our energies having been devoted to just maintaining our territory! We are fortunate to have this quiet room off to the side. (Thank you, PDiddie!)

Some of us might want to use this space to rally others to action. Others may just enjoy the opportunity to try out new ideas in a setting which promises a friendly reception and real respect.

Whatever! It's where I plan to hang out when it comes to discussing political and social issues in A2K.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 11:13 pm
pd

The Krugman piece, with the quotations from Kissinger, is really very appropriate, I think. Didion too has made the point that that part of the right which worked so hard to bring down Clinton does not consider a liberal/democratic government to be a legitimate expression of American traditions and values.

They are very well organized and disciplined. One notes how thoroughly their pundits stay on message, repeating the pre-planned talking points. It's this conformity which makes DiIlulio's piece in Esquire, or the two soldiers in Iraq speaking out on Rumsfeld, so startling - and refreshing!

I've gotten discouraged a number of times, both on abuzz and here, with the parroted and unreflected statements coming from the ideology pawns who keep popping up, and I've gone off for a break. But I think there is some value in speaking against them, and - to be frank - in embarrassing them publicly for their stupidhood. It's not much, but it's something.

But what we might do here could be very valuable as well. I'd be pleased to chip in what time and ideas I have.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Thu 18 Sep, 2003 11:18 pm
And, I think this may be the place to let folks know, although it has been a lousy lousy day for news already. Anon Voter went into extensive surgery some days ago and his prognosis for recovery was uncertain. The surgery was necessary as a consequence of his injuries from Viet Nam.
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PDiddie
 
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Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2003 04:56 am
Christ, I knew there was a reason Anon hadn't checked in in a long time.

Please keep us up to date if you can, b.

I'm not the one to thank, Tartarin. It's Craven's sandbox, and it's a little low on sand at the moment.

Please check Announcements, everyone, and help if you can.

A small contribution in mamaj or Anon's name would make a huge deposit in your karmic account.
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sozobe
 
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Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2003 02:13 pm
Oh no, I didn't know that about Anon. Sad Sending him good thoughts.
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Ethel2
 
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Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2003 05:40 pm
checking in
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Tartarin
 
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Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2003 09:25 pm
Anyone know how much Craven has received to date? The "thermometer" isn't registering much of a change -- I'll bet he's gotten a lot of support!
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Butrflynet
 
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Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2003 09:33 pm
He said in the announcement thread that it was getting closer to $1k.
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Tartarin
 
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Reply Fri 19 Sep, 2003 09:40 pm
All right!!
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