9
   

FOLLOW THE MONEY - ELECTION 2008

 
 
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 11:43 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I can support it because our life savings are invested in the market and in the bank and we're leaving them there because to withdraw them would make things worse. That's literally putting our money where our mouth is, a conservative principle by the way.


So... free market unless we're going to lose our life savings.

Quote:
I can support it because the fact that a whole lot of people, Republicans and Democrats in Congress and the White House, over the last two or three decades made some very bad decisions and, because many people acted irresponsibly or unconscionably, are now realizing the consequences. We can't undo those decisions or the results, so we have to do what we have to do to fix what is broken and do it better. To act rather than sit back and do nothing other than assign blame is also a conservative principle.

So government has to step in to avoid the consequences of bad decisions. I actually thought that doing nothing WAS a conservative principle -- especially the federal government doing nothing. You know... limited government, laissez faire, etc...

Quote:
I can support it because I have run a business and pulled it out of what appeared to be hopeless financial insolvency.

Yeah? Maybe these corporations who are asking for a bailout would do better to consult you before the taxpayers assume their bad debts.

Quote:
So long as assets outnumber liabilities, it is never hopeless and sometimes thinking outside the box and willingness to make educated gambles is the prudent thing to do. The USA has tremendous assets both in material wealth and in the ability and vision of its people. Recognition of that is also a conservative principle.


The USA has tremendous debts and a population who doesn't want to pay taxes to pay those debts down. How are we going to pay for all of these bailouts?


cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:01 pm
@FreeDuck,
Foxfyre wrote:
Quote:

I can support it because our life savings are invested in the market and in the bank and we're leaving them there because to withdraw them would make things worse. That's literally putting our money where our mouth is, a conservative principle by the way.


And you have evidence for most conservatives living by this principle and liberals are not.
FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:03 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Actually, I missed that last line. It isn't putting your money where your mouth is, it's putting other people's money where your money is.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  4  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:04 pm
@FreeDuck,
Again Duck, what is being proposed may not cost the taxpayers a dime. Of what benefit is there to destroy millions of jobs and wipe out the investments of millions of life savings because of an ideological principle? If we had followed the free market principle all along, we wouldn't be in the mess. But we didn't. Congress, assisted by a few Presidents, has manipulated the free market resulting in all the bad investments and loans. Now Congress and our current President has stepped in, hopefully briefly, to correct what has been done and give the free market time to stabilize and work again.

It will either work or it won't. But doing nothing was not an option that was in the best interest of the country.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:06 pm
@Foxfyre,
Fox, Are you truly that ignorant? It won't cost the taxpayers a dime? Do you understand macro-economics - when the government continues to increase the money supply without the products and services to back it up? It's called "inflation."
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:22 pm
@Foxfyre,
I do not believe that the only two options are massive bailout and federal takeover of a significant portion of the housing market, or nothing. Yes, something should be done. Something should have been done a long time ago. And yes, what is good for the country should trump ideology. But what we have here is a proposal to do something that will make us feel good right now but that our children and grandchildren will be dealing with for years to come.

Do you honestly believe that, if there were any possibility of making a profit off of this situation, the market would not have found a way to exploit it? Do you think the government knows something the market doesn't?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 12:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
I don't think she thought about that part, but the market did - the dollar plummeted today and oil went up $23 a barrel, the largest single-day rise in history. All on fears of the bailout...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 01:32 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
If we had followed the free market principle all along, we wouldn't be in the mess. But we didn't. Congress, assisted by a few Presidents, has manipulated the free market resulting in all the bad investments and loans.


You know you are becoming a master of vague hints which leave you wiggle room and undeniably when called upon. Furthermore, deregulation of banks and financial institutions have been going on since the Reagan and continued under Clinton (with the help of McCain) and have even continue more under Bush .

Quote:
Regarding "Regulating Banks: Enough Already" (Viewpoints, Feb. 7), let's see if I have it straight. Deregulation in the 1980's under President Reagan led to the savings and loan scandal, which led to the Federal bailout, which led to increasing the national debt -- and in the process caused some people to be led to jail.


http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0CEFD71730F934A35750C0A965958260

Quote:
An agreement between the Clinton administration and congressional Republicans, reached during all-night negotiations which concluded in the early hours of October 22, sets the stage for passage of the most sweeping banking deregulation bill in American history, lifting virtually all restraints on the operation of the giant monopolies which dominate the financial system.


http://www.wsws.org/articles/1999/nov1999/bank-n01.shtml

Quote:
In fact, Mr. McCain championed financial deregulation for years. In 1999, he supported legislation crafted by Phil Gramm, then a senator from Texas, that removed Depression-era walls between banking, investment and insurance companies -- allegedly to make the country's financial institutions more competitive and free to take entrepreneurial risks in the marketplace. (Many Democrats, including Sen. Joe Biden, the party's vice presidential nominee, supported this ill-considered legislation as well.)

The result was the creation of a free-market free-for-all of banks approving home mortgages to people who clearly couldn't afford to repay them if real-estate values stopped rising. It also spurred investment banks to buy and sell packages of mortgages after they had convinced themselves that by "spreading the risk," bad loans could become less-bad loans. Then they bought insurance contracts from gargantuan insurance companies like AIG to spread the risk even further. Investors banked on the fact that if real-estate values stopped rising (impossible!), and more and more people defaulted on their mortgages, Fannie and Freddie would pick up the tab. And, if Fannie and Freddie went down, there would be -- The-Ultimate-Bearer-Of-All-Risks -- the lowly taxpayers.



http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122204285661261373.html?mod=googlenews_wsj

It would seem to me the problem is not that we don't enough of "free market" but that the market has been allowed to run amok with no oversight and this is the result.



cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 02:01 pm
@revel,
revel, You got it pretty close to the vest, but it ain't gonna help with her "education" of the facts.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  4  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 02:05 pm
@FreeDuck,
No those aren't the only options, and I'm sure that discussions that have gone on pretty well 24/7 since all this came to a head have included many many options. But bailout and federal takeover seems to be the general consensus among at least some experts and Congress seems to be coming to that conclusion also. Never fear, Democrats are firmly in charge of all the committees who will offer legislation about this. The downside to that is they won't be able to blame Karl Rove for whatever conclusions they reach.
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 02:11 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
The downside to that is they won't be able to blame Karl Rove for whatever conclusions they reach.


Surely, you're not that naive, Foxy. Just as the aftermath of Bush will continue long after he's gone, so too will the spectre of Karl Rove. An evil that deep cannot be cut out quickly. The evil that was Lee Atwater still haunts the Repubs.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 02:21 pm
@JTT,
Most people know and understand that Karl Rove was the puppeteer, so it's gonna be very difficult for him to disappear from Bush's legacy.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 02:34 pm
From PolitiFact.com:

Quote:
The New York Times looked at contributions from Fannie and Freddie's boards of directors and lobbyists, who are technically not employees. That analysis found Fannie and Freddie-related contributors gave $116,000 to John McCain and his related committees, compared with $16,000 to Obama and his related committees.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 04:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
The democrats are in charge of committees but they do not have enough power to overpower a veto or to force a vote if enough republicans wanted to stop it--which has happened since they got enough votes to become the majority but not two thirds which would have gave them enough power to push legislation through.

I personally don't blame Karl Rove for this but just simply conservatism run unrestrained.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 05:05 pm
@Foxfyre,
It's not the "federal takeover;" the takeover becomes the responsibility of the taxpayers with all the incompetence and wild spending of our government.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 05:13 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Does it not seem silly to you that c.i. jets off around the world, lives a life of Riley, organises A2K meetings mainly over overflowing plates of food, drink and general consumption, none of which he can possibly deserve, and he talks about the "incompetence and wild spending of our government" as if that is some kind of disaster.

Boy oh boy is that guy one silly sod or is that guy one silly sod?
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 05:15 pm
I really love this new "ignore" button. One press, and they're gone!
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 05:18 pm
@cicerone imposter,
One press and you can go on being a silly sod for ever and ever without even knowing it. Unabled to know one might say. Disabling oneself so to speak.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 05:20 pm
@spendius,
That's a completely fatuous argument, Spendius. CI has earned his money so how can you possibly suggest that he doesn't deserve to spend it as he sees fit.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Sep, 2008 05:26 pm
@JTT,
JTT, Unless one gets their money through graft, fraud, or the government bailout, money earned is not really "earned."
 

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