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Guys? You're not helping (Palin sexism watch)

 
 
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 10:55 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
The din of commentary re Sarah Palin's children, her 'special' child, her responsibilities as a mother, her sense of propriety and dubious 'family values', yadda yadda have been a huge component in the scrutiny however, and that kind of thing was rarely if ever applied to Hillary.

Oh come on, are you kidding me? Were you even there for the 1992 elections? Minus the special child, all of the above was directed at Hillary in spades. Dubious family values - that was a major spearhead of character attacks against Hillary that year.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 10:59 am
@nimh,
Dubious family values re her stated policies--it takes a village--pro choice--all that yes. Dubious family values re how she chose to live her life? No. And therein is the difference. I don't recall Hillary's ability to be a good mother to Chelsea ever being questioned.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:01 am
@Bi-Polar Bear,
Quote:
I suspect that when the day arrives when politicians act in a mature and respectful way towards each other and towards the people they're elected to serve then cartoonists and the 10% idiots will fall in line and this type of thing will stop.

In other words when pigs, with or without lipstick, fly.

Politicians earn the disrespectful treatment they get. In spades.


Good point....given the nature of the GOP convention McCain/Palin have zero right to complain about not being treated with respect. The conventions was over all us vs them and snarky, in other words in the gutter.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  3  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:04 am
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

I am not contesting that it's never there, just that I don't feel every single person calling her hot is trying to do that consciously or even subconsciously.

Thats a bit of a straw man. I dont think anyone has argued that whoever, whenever calls Palin a hottie in any context is sexist.

T-shirts or bumper stickers saying McCain/MILF, VPILF, or Hoosiers for the Hottie, however, are.

They take Palin as politician and presidential candidate and reduce her function as such to being a mere sex symbol. It's the equivalent of McCain/Dumb Blonde, or McCain + The Bitch, or McCain/That woman I want in my bed.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:04 am
@Foxfyre,
I don't recall Bill or Hillary making the claim that their records as parents should influence our vote.
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:07 am
One more thing about that Chelsea Clinton joke. Could you ever even imagine Barack Obama saying something like that? I doubt it. Have you ever heard of him saying anything even remotely as crude and insensitive about ANYONE? Of course not. But then again, he's not a vile, contemptible, small-minded person, as John McCain is, at least according to Foxfyre.

0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:10 am
@nimh,
I don't entirely disagree re 'sex object' but I think there is a difference between 'sexual' and 'sexist'. There were lots of accounts of women absolutely going bananas over a younger Bill Clinton and admitting they wouldn't turn down a one-night-stand with him if offered. That is star power sexual, not sexist.

I will confess that the single sexiest politician in Washington for me is Joe Biden, especially a slightly younger Joe Biden. I don't like his politics or his methods at time, and I don't do one-night-stands, but he is an extremely attractive man to me. That also is not sexist but more of a male/female kind of criticial attraction kind of thing.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:10 am
@hawkeye10,
And your point is?
nimh
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:19 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Dubious family values re her stated policies--it takes a village--pro choice--all that yes. Dubious family values re how she chose to live her life? No. And therein is the difference.

BS Foxfyre. Hillary was slammed at least as much as Palin is even now, for not being a proper woman, for being a bad wife, for not having family values, for looking down on housewifes, for being too bitchy, too assertive, for being more interested in her career than her family, etc etc. 1992 in that sense were the culture war elections on the topic of a wife's and First Lady's role, a belated electoral war about the legacy of the sixties. Hillary was just too "non-traditional", too ambitious, too outspoken in comparison with such 'good wifes and mothers' like Barbara Bush, and so she was portrayed by the "family values" right as an egocentric, bitchy, untrustworthy, elitist harpy.

If you dont remember any of that, and are refusing to look into the sources you've been given even now, that's fine. But all that reveals is your very selective memory and curiosity when it comes to political opponents.
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:21 am
@revel,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Sorry. The sweet lady may or may not be generally sexist, but her observation is. It doesn't make her a horrible person, but if she is applying separate standards to the behavior of male and female candidates then she is exhibiting sexism.

Alas Bill, you don't get to level this attack against Palin under the cover of a sweet old lady you know and avoid the sexist tag --- especially when you have an eagle eye for the racisim hidden within opposition to Obama.


revel wrote:

From the first I have argued that saying anything about Palin being able to both VP and mother regardless of health/physical problems was not being fair in that we do not say the same for men. It is sexist no matter who participates in that line of thought and voices it or just thinks it.


Diest TKO wrote:

No matter the outcome of this election, sexism and racism will still exist. What matters right now is that we don't contribute to that. Perhaps the right wing will start to care about equality issues a little more that they've seen it a little closer.


Amen to all that. All of this had me nodding along.

Thank you, everybody, by the way, for your engaged and honest responses, and for a discussion that has, with the odd exception, been 'outside the box' of normal partisan warfare. I was kind of wary of the type of attitude that in the end was only really demonstrated by ebrown in the thread he started in response to this one. But instead I've been happy to see a lot of - I dunno - grown-up and non-kneejerk responses, whether in agreement and disagreement.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:21 am
@nimh,
Fine Nimh. You may be right. Or not.
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:28 am
I had not seen any of the images that opened this thread before now. Shocked
Promoting it doesn't help either.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:35 am
@eoe,
being aware of what is does not match the definition of "promotion". We already overly censor speech in America, lets not promote the practice...OK?
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:42 am
@Foxfyre,
MY point is that once Palin put her motherhood credentials into play as rational for why we should vote for her, she put her kids into play. Hillary did not do that, and the press did not dissect Chelsea's life. Examination of the Palin kids is not an example of sexism, it is an example of fair play. Palin does not get to make claims and then deny the American people the right to look into those claims.
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:46 am
@hawkeye10,
she does as long as the american people allow her to get away with that double standard.....even some of the dems here allow the republicans that bit of sexism and allow it even to trump fairplay.

Treat me just like you would a man.... but don't pick on me because I'm a girl. Horseshit.
0 Replies
 
eoe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:47 am
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

being aware of what is does not match the definition of "promotion". We already overly censor speech in America, lets not promote the practice...OK?


Point taken. Censorship is never a solution. But those images are ugly as ****.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 11:54 am
@hawkeye10,
I'm not questioning what you're saying but I am unaware that Palin put her motherhood credentials into play as rational for why we should vote for her. But even if she did, how do those credentials disqualify her to run for high office?
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  3  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 12:04 pm
@nimh,
nimh wrote:
Thats a bit of a straw man. I dont think anyone has argued that whoever, whenever calls Palin a hottie in any context is sexist.

T-shirts or bumper stickers saying McCain/MILF, VPILF, or Hoosiers for the Hottie, however, are.


What I'm saying is to assert that those comments are invariably sexism ignores that there are other reasons people might display them and projects your own.

Just using a "Hoosiers for Hottie" button simply doesn't have to involve the reduction you claim it does. You are projecting things that are possibly there but possibly not there at all. This is just political correctness at it's most pedantic and if you actually listen to what they have to say it would be much harder to portray them as sexist.

For example I looked it up to see who was wearing them, and it sounds like women came up with the idea and just plain reject the notion that they are reducing her to a sexual object.

Quote:
"Being a hot chick, strong fun and capable all go together," said Koch, who said she wouldn't see anything sexist even if a man were to don the button.

Lawrence Mayor Paul Rickets wins the award for political correctness.

"She's a very hot lady in terms of her intelligence, her abilities and she's a very nice looking lady. I think she fits the bill very very well," he said.

http://www.wthr.com/Global/story.asp?S=8946005&nav=menu188_2


Quote:
They take Palin as politician and presidential candidate and reduce her function as such to being a mere sex symbol.


As long as you project your own meaning it does. That clearly isn't the meaning that the people wearing it intended. This is why I argue that you are ascribing to sexism what may just be vapidity.

Quote:
It's the equivalent of McCain/Dumb Blonde, or McCain + The Bitch, or McCain/That woman I want in my bed.


Well I guess it might mean that to you, but it doesn't mean that to me and the people wearing the buttons claim it doesn't mean that to them either.

I also think that automatically assuming that calling a female hot is to call them dumb perpetuates that sexist stereotype. Some of the people sounded like the were wearing it to counter that stereotype of looks being incompatible with competence. Saying that calling her hot automatically reduces her to dumb is to buy into it.
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 12:54 pm
@dlowan,
dlowan wrote:
Mind you...it does kind of amuse me to see right wingers outraged by gross sexist attacks on Palin, given what Hillary received....unless they similarly expressed disgust about that.


Ditto. Sarah Palin did not express disgust about sexist attacks. On the contrary, her advice to women (and to Hillary Clinton, in particular) was to keep their mouths shut and just work harder. Sarah Palin publicly stated, as fair or unfair as the excess criticisms may be, Hillary Clinton does a disservice to herself by even mentioning it and she must plow through and work harder. Palin stated that any "perceived whine" doesn't do women in politics, or women in general, any good.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9Y8FKAsxmk

The SNL skit emphasized the right-wing hypocrisy when the Hillary character declared that she was surprised that they suddenly cared about the issue of sexism.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdDqSvJ6aHc

Similarly, the right wingers had no problem with the Bush Administration violating the Constitution and federal law and conducting warrantless searches of electronic communications. However, as soon as Palin's email was allegedly hacked, then they discovered the right to privacy and declared their outrage.

hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sun 21 Sep, 2008 01:05 pm
@Debra Law,
Quote:
Ditto. Sarah Palin did not express disgust about sexist attacks. On the contrary, her advice to women (and to Hillary Clinton, in particular) was to keep their mouths shut and just work harder. Sarah Palin publicly stated, as fair or unfair as the excess criticisms may be, Hillary Clinton does a disservice to herself by even mentioning it and she must plow through and work harder. Palin stated that any "perceived whine" doesn't do women in politics, or women in general, any good.



I think Palin is not remotely qualified for VP, and that she is a shameless opportunist, but I think you have this right. There are qualities about Palin that I like, and this is one of them. This also fits in with what my wife, a highly successful woman in a traditionally man's career field, has learned over time. Shut up, do the job better than most of the men do, and most of the time things will work out fine. It is not fair but then life is not fair.....get over it already.
 

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