61
   

Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 05:28 am
AT DArwin Day (celebrating the 199th birthday of Charles), a debate was held at Penn, wherein several Creationists or IDers inserted their "SCience". As is the practice, these debtae points were examined and the actual evidence that was factually counter to the Creationist viewpoint were brought forth and openly discussed. It shortly became evident that , the entire Creation ist viewpoint was ignorant of factual evidence and, once, after the Creationists were introduced to the evidence, they failed to revise their viewpoints anyway. SO, it was quickly seen that their worldview doesnt approximate anything that science requires to be "self correcting". Creationist dogma must remain unassailable in their view, so, any data counter to Creationism must be denied.
I wonder how a Creationist chemist or physicit would practize their crafts if they brought a Terracentrism theory or, "Transmutation" phenom (as preached in the Good Book) into the debate.

Har Har.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:48 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
The fact that both ID and Creationism are totally counter-factual, means that they too must be repudiated as valid science. Thats primarily what this whole kerfuffle should be about , and not some cultural debate or some hunt for a moral central.


Why don't you tell us something we don't already know fm? If you decided what the kerfuffle was to be about there wouldn't be a kerfuffle now would there. We know that if you decided that you couldn't lose any argument so naturally what you think it should be about can be taken as read. It's a form of assertion. Again.

Human dynamics do not answer to the scientific models that obsess and blind you. They answer to the timber of mankind and they therefore need rules and rule makers who can work in its grain. No animals have rules. The size of the rule book tells you that we are not animals as you would have us.

The kerfuffle is about atheist rules or Christian rules. I'm speculating in another place that Christian dominated states are not the source of as much of the "toxic debt" as are more secular states and thus it is wrong to tax them equally with the big city spenders.

If I am right, and I don't know that I am, then secular mores might be said to have brought the financial system to its knees. They banned tobacco advertising on just such statistical trends.

I'll allow that what you say is essentially correct in the limited context you apply it but a world in financial crisis is not a price I am prepared to pay for your wisdom. I'd sooner be barmy and comfy that sane and shredded.

You are nothing but a fat-cat Media Mogul parrot. Megalopolitan man. The City has but one objective. To lay waste the countryside in the service of its pleasures. And Media is city based.

Is it not valid science that certain collectively held viewpoints are more "selected in" economically and militarily irrespective of whether they are "right" or not? Or, to put it another way, is not collective secularism debilitating? You wouldn't have any science to get scientific about but for Christian theology.

It's no good asking you to answer that point because you just run away from it and stick your head in the fossil cupboard like an ostrich sticks its head in the sand.

The weakness of "the theory" is its naivety. Perhaps it is a type of sand wherein you can bury your head and pretend that the timber of mankind does not exist. It is reassuringly simple.
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:52 am
@spendius,
That's where you err the greatest, spendi. To you and the other fundamentalists, it's a war between atheists and the religious. Despite the fact that evolution and other science endeavor does not address religion.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 09:58 am
I still maintain that spendi is merely an idiot.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:12 am
@farmerman,
That's another way of burying your head fm. Another self-reassuring fatuous assertion which means nothing and doesn't inspire much confidence in how you might teach scientific subjects.

Just to think that a grown man could respond in that manner to the approval of fellow Americans is enough to make me think that your whole educational system is in urgent need of drastic reform.

I actually have come to believe that you think it is clever and intellectually satisfactory. Ye Gods!
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 10:58 am
@edgarblythe,
I am not a fundamentalist Ed.

Evolution does not address a lot of other things besides religion. Traffic control for example. Or population control generally. In fact what it does address is the removal of all control. It invalidates all subjective thinking. It leaves the results to the struggle of blind forces. It invalidates civilisation.

I can't see how it can be realistically taught in a school without the principles of the theory being the core essence of all the other subjects. If you are up for that I have no argument with you. If you're not you're having yourself on.

I'm surprised you bring such a naive remark to this long running debate. Does it never enter your head that your leadership class and a large majority of your fellow citizens might have a valid point to make.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 11:37 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Does it never enter your head that your leadership class and a large majority of your fellow citizens might have a valid point to make.


Surely you jest, Spendi.
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 12:21 pm
@spendius,
Yep. A fundamentalist.
spendius
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 02:17 pm
@edgarblythe,
Ed- I was using the term in its generally accepted sense. I will admit to being a fundamentalist pragmatist and I don't see how atheists could run an educational system that preserved our way of life. Or a bus depot for more than a few months. They wouldn't even try a piss-up in a brewery.

I have repeatedly challenged anti-IDers to describe an atheist society but not one peep has emerged. That I'm a complete idiot seems to satisfy them scientifically that they know what such a society would look like and that has been their only offering to date.

They are unable to face the fact that the vast majority of people are superstitious, irrational, selfish morons who have been partially civilised and given a few manners by the Christian tradition and not only at a high cost but at a tardy pace. I think their pose, and I do think preaching it is a pose, represents to them a way of feeling above the fray. A social cachet thing. They do talk down to us as is easily seen on here.

However bad the succession of Popes has been I do not see how my pub could have existed without their guidance. So, as a pragmatist, I support those who keep that sort of thing alive and oppose those who seek to kill it.

Personally, I don't give a ****, as Setanta was once wise enough to point out, about **** all. As a member of society it's different. I presume that if there is a God He will look upon folks like Minderbinder with approval as being perfect examples of what this machine He has created can do given the biological imperatives He designed into it. Imelda Marcos is another that springs readily to mind.

Christianity gives a good explanation of our natural capacities through its condemnation of them. A bit like the news can explain more perversions to us all by droolingly condemning them. Encourage them you see. More juicy stories to cover. "Fighting and kissing" Frank Harris said. What use are peaceful, kind and devout people to media. It costs them to investigate what the bankers are up to. And costs come off profits. And profit is what we are here for.

Minderbinder could have turned his hand to religion. He would have organised services. On behalf of the syndicate in which we all have a share.

How can a scientist give a ****? It's ridiculous. That sort of science comes out of reading science books and articles written by people who give so many fucks about every ******* thing under the sun that they are impossible to count. I bet most of them give a **** about the colour the front door is painted or a scratch on the dining-room table. Einstein never knew whether he had his socks on or which ones. I bet those guys know which flower patterned underpants they have on at anytime.

It's a racket. They know they have hit the buffers. A CERN scientist admitted it. I linked you to the film in which he said it. So Evolution. That'll never hit the buffers. It's cheap. There's only talk and a few bones. A very few bones in terms of the number of bones there have been. If you think there are a lot because the curator says so you are out of it man. Seriously.

edgarblythe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 03:22 pm
@spendius,
There you go again, spendi. If it is science, it must atheist. Sad sad.
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 03:26 pm
@spendius,
Damn, Spendi, I never seen you f*ck so much...
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 03:31 pm
@edgarblythe,
I've said no such thing and you ought to know it. Quite the contrary. Science grew in the soil of Christianity. I'm talking about half-baked scientists in relation to evolution.

But it's pub time. First things thirst.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  3  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 04:12 pm
LOUISIANA UPDATE
Quote:
Explore Evolution: A Stealth Creationist Textbook to Accompany the Stealth Creationist “LA Science Education Act”
(Louisiana Coalition for Science, September 27, 2008)

Scientist and writer John Timmer has reviewed the Discovery Institute’s stealth creationist textbook, Explore Evolution, in Ars Technica. Three of EE’s authors are well-known intelligent design (ID) creationists. Stephen C. Meyer is the director of the Discovery Institute’s ID creationist wing, the Center for Science and Culture (CSC). Two of his co-authors are his CSC associates Paul Nelson (a young-earth creationist) and Scott Minnich (a witness for the defense in Kitzmiller et al. v. Dover Area School District). The other two, Jonathan Moneymaker and Ralph Seelke, are lesser-known ID supporters.

In “A Biologist Reviews an Evolution Textbook from the ID Camp,” Timmer refers several times to the prospect that this book may be used in Louisiana science classrooms as a “supplement” of the kind intended by the “LA Science Education Act” (LSEA), which was approved by the Louisiana legislature and signed by Gov. Bobby Jindal during the 2008 legislative session. Indeed, according to one Louisiana newspaper, Meyer’s colleague, CSC associate director John West, indicated that the Discovery Institute hopes to see EE adopted in Louisiana science classes as one of the supplements that the LSEA will permit teachers to use. Contrary to its misleading title, Explore Evolution is a sustained, error-ridden attack on evolutionary theory. It also contains a section on Michael Behe’s concept of “irreducible complexity.” Both aspects of EE make it very much an intelligent design creationist textbook.

Timmer’s review comprises four web pages. Page 1, “The Politics of Exploration,” contains a reference to Louisiana:
In June, Louisiana became the first state to enact a law specifically enabling the use of supplemental materials for the critical evaluation of evolution; similar legislation has been introduced in several other states. EE appears to have been intelligently designed to be the sort of supplemental text that’s appropriate under the Louisiana legislation, and so it’s likely to be making an appearance in classrooms there. . . .

On page 2, “Shaking and Breaking the Tree of Life,” Timmer points out the scientific errors and underhanded tactics that permeate EE. With respect to the latter, he highlights the old creationist trick of finding “someone with a Ph.D. who’s willing to say anything.” He is referring to the EE authors’ citation of the work of Christian Schwabe, whose kooky views are far outside the scientific maintream:
Another PhD the authors found is Christian Schwabe, who apparently has established a career studying a protein called reflexin, along with its relatives. But every couple of years he publishes a paper in which he argues in favor of his belief that the genomes of all modern and extinct species originated during the formation of life billions of years ago. According to Schwabe, those genomes have continued to exist, hidden underground as stem cell-like entities. Whenever these cells sense a favorable environment above ground, they head for the surface and self-organize into a fully formed, multicellular animal. No, I am not making this up. This isn’t simply evidence-free (although it is); it’s borderline deranged. And yet, in the hands of Discovery’s authors, it becomes a serious scientific controversy about the existence of the tree of life. . . .

On page 3, “Spurious Arguments and Logical Flaws,” Timmer exposes a tactic that mirrors Discovery Institute creationists’ dishonest attempts to win unearned legitimacy by getting themselves onto high-profile, public platforms with legitimate, mainstream scientists and scholars. In EE, the authors have placed a reference to Schwabe’s work in the same footnote with a reference to the work of Carl Woese. Woese is a “serious and significant scientist who has made contributions to our understanding of the history of life on earth,” which, Timmer points out, Schwabe is most certainly not. However, says Timmer, “By lumping them together in a single footnote, the authors attempt to illegitimately transfer some of Woese’s credibility to the evidence-free inanity that Schwabe publishes.” This kind of tactic is standard operating procedure for ID creationists at the Discovery Institute.

On page 4, “Not Fit for the Classroom,” Timmer points out that “The text of EE assiduously avoids any mention of intelligent design or creationism, but anyone familiar with the literature of these movements will recognize that their ideas pervade EE.” The scrubbing of the overt use of the term “intelligent design” in EE is clear evidence of the Discovery Institute’s recognition that using overtly creationist language " even their own brand name, “intelligent design” " is a legal liability. Their effort to sanitize their terminology began even before the Kitzmiller trial.

The Discovery Institute’s sanitizing of their terminology in EE repeats the tactic ID proponents used in an earlier creationist textbook, Of People and Pandas, the first high school textbook that the ID movement produced. Pandas was written while Louisiana’s first creationism law, the 1981 “Balanced Treatment for Creation-Science and Evolution-Science Act,” was being litigated. When the U. S. Supreme Court declared this law unconstitutional in 1987, the creationist terminology was hastily scrubbed from Pandas and replaced with the terminology of “intelligent design” prior to its initial publication in 1989. Continuing the creationist strategy of shifting their terminology in the wake of defeats in federal court, EE is the sanitized product of ID creationism’s resounding defeat in the Kitzmiller trial, a fact that Timmer clearly recognizes:
If it never mentions creationism or intelligent design, the decision to avoid doing so appears to be strategic, rather than intellectual. Presumably, it’s done for the same reason that many of the Discovery Fellows have chosen to downplay their personal beliefs about the identity of the designer: it would only get them in trouble when they try to get the book into the school system.

Timmer closes his review with a parting reference to Louisiana. Recalling the statement by Kevin Padian, a scientist and expert witness for the plaintiffs in the Kitzmiller trial, that intelligent design “makes people stupid . . . essentially makes them ignorant,” Timmer concludes on a note that should resonate strongly with all Louisiana citizens who value our public schools and want our children to be decently educated:
Sadly, thanks to the actions of the Louisiana state government, that state’s students are much more likely to be exposed to this sort of stupidity. But the book doesn’t only promote stupidity, it demands it. In every way except its use of the actual term, this is a creationist book, but its authors are expecting that legislators and the courts will be too stupid to notice that, or to remember that the Supreme Court has declared teaching creationism an unconstitutional imposition of religion. As laws similar to Louisiana’s resurface in other states next year, we can only hope that legislators choose not to live down to the low expectations of EE’s authors.

Down here in Louisiana, we can only say “AMEN TO THAT.”
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 05:02 pm
@wandeljw,
Quote:
In “A Biologist Reviews an Evolution Textbook from the ID Camp,” Timmer refers several times to the prospect that this book may be used in Louisiana science classrooms as a “supplement” of the kind intended by the “LA Science Education Act” (LSEA), which was approved by the Louisiana legislature and signed by Gov. Bobby Jindal during the 2008 legislative session. Indeed, according to one Louisiana newspaper, Meyer’s colleague, CSC associate director John West, indicated that the Discovery Institute hopes to see EE adopted in Louisiana science classes as one of the supplements that the LSEA will permit teachers to use. Contrary to its misleading title, Explore Evolution is a sustained, error-ridden attack on evolutionary theory. It also contains a section on Michael Behe’s concept of “irreducible complexity.” Both aspects of EE make it very much an intelligent design creationist textbook.

It didn't take the Discovery Institute long to prepare a textbook to slide into the gap created by that Louisiana law did it. Amazing how quickly "academic freedom" morphs into religious propaganda isn't it.

0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 05:13 pm
@wandeljw,
I didn't bother reading that wande on account of my bullshit warning device flashing on the word "stealth".

Have you read it yourself? Did you enjoy it? That's the main thing.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 06:22 pm
I have a review copy of EE and was amazed at the areas of error that Minnich Meyers et al have inserted, Im referring to the congruence of "geosynclinal theory" as opposed to the later "Plate tectonic " theory.
Meyers has totally ignored the fact that Plate Tectonics was an evidence based hypothesis that gradually overtook and buried "geosynclinal theory" mostly because GT could NOT explain sequential mountain ranges,gravity glide faulting, Island arcs , tectonic basins, and entire Continental Shields. As the tools of the subject became more sophiosticated, geosynclines became unsustainable.
Also, Nat selection and Evo/devo, have overcome ID/Creationism by weight of evidence, which none of these guys has even laid a glove upon.

The YECs are the most outrageous, with their denial of the overwhelmingly substantiated evidence and facts regarding ALL the sciences that underpin evolutionary theory. They are merely stupid fools. The IDers, with their latest foray into "simultaneous genomes" are beginning to sound panicky, more like our own beloved gungasnake or Real Life (who has , strangely been absent since the new format of A2K).
They say that,Simultaneous genomes, like stem cells, remain "asleep"(?) underground until environmental conditions become favorable, and one or another phenotype ascends into the light.

Does this sound like a "B" Japanese Monster Movie?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 27 Sep, 2008 06:33 pm
@farmerman,
I can't answer that fm as I have never seen a B" Japanese Monster Movie.

I prefer Jamie Gillies as a priest hearing a nun's confession type movie.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  3  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 08:40 am
TEXAS UPDATE
Quote:
The fight over teaching science in Texas begins
(Corpus Christi Caller-Times Editorial, September 29, 2008)

Last week the first draft of the science curriculum that would be used in Texas schools for the next 10 years was released. The size of the fight to come was quickly made evident by members of the state Board of Education who want to inject religion into the public schools.

The draft, the work of science teachers and academics, would remove language from the guidelines that govern the teaching of science that mandates that classrooms include covering the "weaknesses" of major scientific theories. The only major scientific theory the conservatives have in their bull's eye is evolution. The draft was the opening shot in what promises to be a long and contentious debate next year.

The guide that directs science teachers to include lessons on the "strengths" and "weaknesses" of scientific theories has been part of the state's teaching guidelines for decades. But the guide has meant little because there is no detail on what that means. The growing power of the conservatives on the State Board, however, could make that mandate explicit, especially as the board goes through rewriting the entire teaching curriculum.

The illusion of balance and even handedness, exploring strengths and weaknesses, distracts from the real goal of the conservatives. They want to open up the public classroom to religious teachings about the origins of the universe. Such teachings are about faith and man's relationship with a greater being, the kind of teaching that is appropriate for church, but not for public schools. The business of science classes is science, not religion.

The harm is that the teaching of science to Texas public schoolchildren suffers. The state, whose future depends on an educated work force, risks diluting the grounding for its students in the very bedrock principles of science with an outlook that is more properly in the realm of Sunday school and the pulpit.

But proponents of such teaching are unbothered by the risks to sound science by including the "weaknesses" mandate. Don McLeroy, chairman of the State Board, believes there are many weaknesses to the theory of evolution. "To teach it as scientific fact presents a real problem to me."

This same conservative faction, which now holds the upper hand on the board, has already had its impact on the teaching of English. The board majority shoved aside the best thinking of English teachers whose own curriculum proposal was ditched. And the board has seen bickering in the past over the teaching of history. The single theme running through this is an agenda that sees the world narrowly and wants that view taught in the public schools.

The draft science curriculum won't be taken up until next year but the lines of division have been drawn for some time. And those lines have been drawn by the candidates for election to the board. The state Board of Education is not a high profile body, although it can have enormous influence on what schoolchildren are taught. That makes it imperative that voters inform themselves about the candidates vying for a place on the board and whether those candidates sound teaching of science or whether they advocate some intellectually slippery notion of "weaknesses" of one of the bedrock principles of science.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 01:04 pm
@wandeljw,
It's passe wande. Everybody is busy dealing with the results of secularism and lack of moral guidance apart from that set out by Mr Darwin. Within Mr Darwin's scheme the fat-cat bankers and slick loan-sharks are highly approved of. You only need look at the type of female which socialises with them.

I presume you approve of them yourself. If you don't you have been pulling our leg all this time about you being a Darwinist and that Darwinianism is the only science for science classes.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 29 Sep, 2008 02:23 pm
Theres that annoying chirping again.
 

Related Topics

 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.08 seconds on 11/07/2024 at 06:40:27