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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2012 12:14 pm
@farmerman,
You're aching to get gunga back in the crosswires rather than me aren't you fm? You keep trying to talk him up as the representative of ID on here.

What would you do without Fundies eh?

Have you any idea how many of my questions you have failed to answer?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2012 12:28 pm
@spendius,
It is pretty obvious that the fact that constitutional interpretations are decided at the judicial level, which is part of federal machinery, will give the decisions a bias towards Federal consolidation whenever issues touching upon the boundaries of the spheres of competence between states and Federal Government.

Anti-ID is federalist. It believe in BIG GOVERNMENT.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2012 12:47 pm
@spendius,
There is a school of constitutional thought that claims that not only has there been a continuous usurpation of States Rights by the judiciary on behalf of Federal government but that that is exactly what the Founding Fathers had planned to happen in order to make America a country rather than a Union.

Free movement of goods, universal literacy in a common language and common customs and traditions are strong factors exerting a pull in the direction of central executives. These run counter to divisions based on geography. A high rate of geographical mobility weakens the rights of states as well.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2012 03:02 pm
@spendius,
Quote:
It is pretty obvious that the fact that constitutional interpretations are decided at the judicial level, which is part of federal machinery, will give the decisions a bias towards Federal consolidation whenever issues touching upon the boundaries of the spheres of competence between states and Federal Government.


Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk Drunk
I have no idea in Swatara what the hell youve just said there. Should I call a lawyer for a read, or a barkeep to cut you off?

YOU do understand that that is what the Federal judiciary's mission is? to interpret cases that have a Constitutional implication?
Competence is all defined in the Constitution and Amendment 10 is a slop bucket that does NOT address rules that are clearly defined in the other 23
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2012 06:21 pm
@farmerman,
Snow from a federaliser who has been found out.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Feb, 2012 09:08 pm
@spendius,
Sometimes you sling senetences together from parts of bad dreams or reading newspapares on the bottoms of canary cages. You havent a clue of what you speak, thats the funny part. Youve been talking hash here.
If anything , ENgland is the least that Id expect to take up and challenge an internal grievance by such "tough talk" as you are posing to do. Youre a pussy and you know it. Your courage comes from a tankard not convictions.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 05:15 am
NEW HAMPSHIRE UPDATE
Quote:
Bills assert science only a theory
(By Sarah Palermo / Concord Monitor / February 10, 2012)

If Reps. Gary Hopper and Jerry Bergevin doubted they had won national attention this year with a pair of bills designed to change how evolution is taught in New Hampshire classrooms, they had only to look around them yesterday. Their legislation inspired a think tank to fly a representative in from Seattle to testify.

The House Education Committee heard testimony yesterday on a bill Hopper, a Weare Republican, proposed, calling for science teachers to "instruct pupils that proper scientific (inquiry) results from not committing to any one theory or hypothesis . . . and that scientific and technological innovations based on new evidence can challenge accepted scientific theories."

Bergevin, a Manchester Republican, proposed a bill that would require schools to teach evolution as a theory, and include "the theorists' political and ideological viewpoints and their position on the concept of atheism." The Education Committee is scheduled to hear testimony on that bill Tuesday, and vote on both next Thursday.

"A lot of the schools in our state and elsewhere are teaching scientific theories as if they are undisputed fact," Hopper said. "I don't think that's the right way to teach our children. The right way to teach our children is with a sense of wonder. If you don't show the pros and the cons of an idea, you're limiting what children can learn, limiting their sense of wonder."

Several committee members asked Hopper to justify the need for his bill, saying the issue could be handled by local school boards instead of the Legislature, and asking how the state would enforce such a rule.

"I think what you are getting at is scientific inquiry, . . . trying to ask that science teachers ask children to attack the major premise of any argument. . . . I think it's a very worthy and noble bill that you're putting forward, but I think it's already being done in our classrooms," said Rep. Mary Gorman, a Nashua Democrat.

"But teachers, regardless of district, should have some liberty to teach the contradictions to the status quo without having fear of retribution," Hopper said.

Hopper also said he would not mind if the committee changed the bill so it encourages, not requires, teachers discuss both sides of the debate.

After Hopper and Bergevin testified in favor of the bill and a few other New Hampshire residents spoke against it, the committee heard from Joshua Youngkin, the law and policy program officer with the Discovery Institute in Seattle, a conservative think tank that sponsors intelligent design programs for schools.

Youngkin traveled to Concord to support Hopper's bill and urge lawmakers to go further to protect teachers' academic freedom, which he and Hopper said is in danger.

"The Discovery Institute does express support to the spirit of the bill. A critical state of mind amongst high school students is appropriate . . . They should learn to address matters skeptically."

A 2005 profile of the group in the Seattle Times says it has worked with school boards to craft anti-evolution rules for small towns and entire states. According to the group's tax reports filed in 2009, it brought in and spent about $4.5 million in 2009.

The institute condemns legislation that promotes an overtly creationist or religious alternative to evolution, preferring to advocate for the inclusion of scientific objections. Since 2002, when the group worked with the Ohio Board of Education on curricular alternatives to evolution, it has used the rallying cry "teach the controversy."

"Teaching the controversy" avoids the religious connotations of creationism and intelligent design, but calls on lawmakers to require teachers spend equal time discussing evidence for and against evolution.

Hopper's bill only requires teachers to address the fact that science is a field where new discoveries will be made. But the state should be more specific, and explicitly allow teachers to address challenges people have made to evolutionary science, Youngkin said, listing teachers in Washington, Minnesota and Texas who lost their jobs over the issue.

"There is a great deal of (uncertainty) of what teachers can teach about scientific controversy. . . . You can pass academic freedom legislation and protect teachers to teach both sides of every academic controversy in a critical manner," he said.

Dale Roy, a former high school science teacher who lives in Hillsboro, testified that she didn't support the bill. Her former district asked her to follow the state framework for appropriate curricula by grade level but didn't mandate what topics she should cover, or how she should address student questions about evolution.

She used the textbook as a tool and supplemented it with more current scientific articles and research, but still, students often asked about things outside the purview of her classroom, like what existed before or caused the Big Bang, Roy said.

"The answer I have to give is, 'I don't know,' and you know what, science doesn't know, and it's okay," she said.

Her objection to Hopper's bill was a concern it would release a flood of information, not all of it equally researched or empirical.

"According to this, if one lone scientist in his backyard found something, I'm supposed to teach that to my students and present it with equal weight to something established by the consensus," she said.

And, yes, said another former science teacher, some scientific theories are established and vetted by a consensus.

John Godfrey of Pembroke, a retired teacher and representative of the New Hampshire Science Teachers Association, said there is no scientific debate on the veracity of evolution.

He described scientific theories as sitting along a broad spectrum. At one end, theories of religious or philosophical nature can't be proven by empirical research.

At the other, "there's what we're really sure of," he said.

The theories at that end have been put through experiments and tests, and are supported and sometimes modified based on measurable data.

"If you have the data, you're going to win arguments. You're going to win the day," he said. "Does the majority of the scientific community believe in evolution? Yes."

"To enact legislation requiring teachers to instruct that you cannot commit to any one theory no matter how firmly it appears to be accepted, just doesn't fit with what we know about theories. They go the gamut from purely theoretical to wow, this has been proven out time after time after time and we believe it to be so."

"There's lots of things in science we really know and we can teach the kids, here's what scientists have figured out, and we pretty much agree. Don't deprive them of that and say, 'Maybe yes, and maybe no. Go figure it out for yourself.' "
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 05:22 am
@wandeljw,
Ill bet that rosborne is really proud of his state of New HAmpster
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 05:28 am
@farmerman,
Hey, there's cockroaches in every state, it don't mean they're bad people.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 05:35 am
@farmerman,
Will you kindly explain what you mean by --

Quote:
Sometimes you sling senetences together from parts of bad dreams or reading newspapares on the bottoms of canary cages.


because I have no idea. I don't have bad dreams and I don't read newspapers.

And while you're at it please explain what this means--

Quote:
You havent a clue of what you speak, thats the funny part.


Anybody can say that about anything. It is not an argument just as the first quote isn't either.

Likewise-

Quote:
. Youve been talking hash here.


Quote:
If anything , ENgland is the least that Id expect to take up and challenge an internal grievance by such "tough talk" as you are posing to do. Youre a pussy and you know it. Your courage comes from a tankard not convictions.


That's pure shite too.

You have not a single scientific cell in your body. If you had it would have stopped you from discrediting yourself and anti-ID with such nonsensical drivel as that post.

All I did was defend some elected representatives in Indiana and question the validity of stacking this thread with carefully selected and biased blogs and articles about the issues. A long succession of such selections is obviously politically motivated.

Suppose I wasn't here doing that. This thread would then look like an atheists in-house magazine.

I don't do any "tough talk" on here. And I'm not in the least ashamed of being a pussy. What are you then? A prick?

You certainly look like it after treating a science thread in the way you do. You're having emotional thrums because you have no other answers.

Who are you and wande and ros and those wande has quoted to stand opposed to people who have been elected in Indiana and have the responsibility of running a very successful state? And have to answer for what they do at the next election. You lot have to answer to nobody. You can gob off without a care in the world.

I don't know that much about the Constitution but I know enough to convince me that you know nothing about it and just use the word to beat down people in your path.

Viewers on here, and there are a number, can make their own minds up about what I say and what you lot say. They don't need your petty insults for guidance except insofar as they are bound to get a sense of what life will be like if ever anti-IDers usurp all states rights and centralise all authority legitimised by your style of debate. You're a bunch of ignorant, bigoted bullies who had scared everybody off with the sort of playground invective you once again display. Then I arrived. You won't scare me off.

And you are motivated solely by rejection of Christian sexual morality and are using the prestige of Science to row your boats ashore. Considering a 50% divorce rate and after Kinsey, Masters and Johnson, Freud, Wilhelm Reich & Co it is amazing that you cannot make any serious inroads into religious belief.

Do you never wonder why? I'll tell you. It's because you are not anti-IDers at all. Real anti-IDers must be tearing their hair out seeing you silly sods representing their position when you would run a mile at the thought of anti-ID being even half operative.

And you are in a minority.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 05:42 am
@spendius,
feel better ? Lets get back to the subject at hand , k?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 06:24 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
John Godfrey of Pembroke, a retired teacher and representative of the New Hampshire Science Teachers Association, said there is no scientific debate on the veracity of evolution.


But there is a scientific debate about whether science is the only principle to guide human affairs. And politicians are charged with guiding human affairs. Science is not. It's a tool.

What does evolution have to say about guiding human affairs going forward?

Quote:
He described scientific theories as sitting along a broad spectrum. At one end, theories of religious or philosophical nature can't be proven by empirical research.


Is not the obvious success of Christian culture an empirical fact? Was not life "nasty, brutish and short" in every other culture?

Will one of you sneerers, and sneering seems your only method, give us a brief outline of the mechanics of an atheist project resulting in industrialisation, and the welfare programmes which resulted from industrialisation, starting from anywhere you like before 1000 AD.

It would be helpful too if you gave us an explanation of evolutionary mechanics rather than giant piles of simple descriptions of what, when and where which are elaborated out of all proportion to keep people in well paid pointless jobs telling us the same banal things over and over again in order to disguise the obvious fact that they have no idea of why or how and to avoid the necessity of telling us that might is right scientifically.

Since when is the why and the how relegated to being of no interest?
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 06:52 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
At the other, "there's what we're really sure of," he said.


Perhaps Mr Godfrey will explain to us all how he proceeds through the day on the basis of only what he is really sure of. He has a recipe for catatonia on his hands there. And no science of any sort.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 06:55 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Ill bet that rosborne is really proud of his state of New Hamster
I hang my head in shame. Sad
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 07:07 am
@rosborne979,
With Mr Godfrey speaking on behalf of ros's small faction he ought to hang his head in shame.

When Godfrey got up on his hind legs to say that " there is no scientific debate on the veracity of evolution" what he actually meant was that there is no scientific debate on the veracity of evolution that he has ever heard of.

Which is not the same thing. It is a fond belief of scientific methodologists that what they have heard of is the only thing that can possibly be heard of. The classic head in arse situation.
0 Replies
 
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 07:35 pm
Was there not an anti-scientific bill passed recently?

I am not certain of the specifics, being that I am from the UK.

However, there does not appear to be no fact-valuation spectrum to distinguish.

The conditions for science have been suggested, it is practical and open to the concept of falsification, empirically, yet does this suggest it ought to be practiced?

It is a naturalistic assumption, positivism, or not, there is a normative basis in this case, that being the 'teaching of evolution'.

For clarification, is it scientifically valid to practice scientific methodology?

Though, it is likely that we all agree on a normative definition of rationality, or usefulness, empirically satisfying occhams razor.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 07:49 pm
@Anomie,
It seems obvious you have no clue about science.
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 07:54 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Perhaps you have misinterpreted my arguement.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 07:56 pm
@Anomie,
You wrote,
Quote:
For clarification, is it scientifically valid to practice scientific methodology?


If you have to ask the question, it means your knowledge of science is lacking.
Anomie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Feb, 2012 07:57 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Science does not argue normatives, the topic is a political arguement.
 

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