Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

AS far as creeping Creationism, dont think that you are free from the whole issue. Youd better watch carefully because I dont think that your system is as well equipped to handle the assault.

Our population is though, we don't tend to have religious nutters like you do. Whenever there is an election, abortion is never an issue.

You may think I'm pulling arguments out of the air, but you did accuse me of proseletysing and wanting to impose a state religion on the USA. I'm sorry that you can't comprehend the possibility that others are not jealous of your Constitution. I'm not envious of your gun control laws or healthcare system either. Sorry.

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@cicerone imposter,

cicerone imposter wrote:

How quaint; Liz brings in the tourists. And she's paid how much?

Way too ******* much.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

Because some states may have conservative views which you personally deplore is not no sufficient to say that we should have a government which can arbitrarily interfere--which is quite the opposite of the authoritarianism at which you hinted with that cheap shot you took.

But that misses the real point which is not a snapshot of now, which can always be argued about, but the direction in which such interference is moving, which can't be argued about. This very thread concerns a step in an obvious direction. And it is a step in the direction of centralising authority. A direction which has been travelled sufficiently far to have spawned serious resistance.

We almost had dictat from Dover if some hysterical anti-IDers were to be believed after JJ pronounced. Hounded the losers into exile I heard.

It is not a question of the limited sovereignty of the States. That is always limited unless there's an independent country. It's a sophistry. It's a question of whether sovereignty is increasing or decreasing and more importantly if it is felt to be.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

Quote:

I heard he actually had to be dug up later to be reburied at Westminster Abbey.

You heard wrong.

Where's those quotes?

1 Reply

@spendius,

From Ask.yahoo:

Quote:

Dear Yahoo!:
Where is Charles Darwin buried?
The Missing Link
Dear Link:
Charles Robert Darwin was born February 12, 1809, in Shrewsbury, England. After a remarkable and productive life, he died on April 19, 1882, in Downe, England. The cause of his death is not clear. Some sources claim it was due to a heart attack, while others cite an illness (possibly Chagas disease) contracted during his travels to South America.
Upon his death, Darwin's family arranged for him to be buried in St. Mary's churchyard in the village of Downe. However, William Spottiswoode, the President of the Royal Society (an elite scientific body in London), had greater aspirations for Darwin. He wrote to the Dean of Westminster Abbey requesting that Darwin be buried in its prestigious cemetery.

A self-professed agnostic, Darwin wrote the following on the topic of creationism:

I feel most deeply that the whole subject is too profound for human intellect. A dog might as well speculate on the mind of Newton. Let each man hope and believe what he can.
Despite Darwin's controversial work, the Dean of Westminster accepted Spottiswoode's request. After Darwin's family agreed to the interment, his body was sent to the Abbey for a service and burial.
Charles Darwin's grave bears a simple inscription with his name, birth date, and date of death. He keeps good company, however. He is buried close to two other famous scientists, Sir John Herschel and, ironically enough, Sir Isaac Newton.

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@cicerone imposter,

So. I know all that. fm said he had been dug up and reburied. He hadn't.

The landlord of a pub adjacent to the churchyard and some other self interested allies objected to the Abbey grabbing all the profits from his burial place. They felt they should have them. An inchoate Tea Party. In fact the USA is one big Tea Party. We were the centre being shunted off the scene then.

The Darwin burial is an early example of the direction of sovereignty towards centralisation that I was discussing earlier. Limiting local rights in the service of the higher right to coin it. Testing patience.

1 Reply

@spendius,

The Romans had a problem with the hubris of the centre. It's self-correcting in the long run. Like the balance in nature between predator and prey.

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@cicerone imposter,

Fm is correct, but his tone is wrong. It suggests that he was initially refused burial at Westminster Abbey, but as your post indicates that wasn't the case. The reason he was interred in Downe originally was because of his family's wishes.

1 Reply

@spendius,

More or less the whole economy of a small town in Yorkshire is based upon the Brontes being buried there. That was what was stolen off the meek citizens of Downe.

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@izzythepush,

I'm not exactly certain but my remembrance from Desmond and Moore is that he wasn't buried in the churchyard. And ci's quote agrees.

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@spendius,

Quote:

It is not a question of the limited sovereignty of the States. That is always limited unless there's an independent country. It's a sophistry. It's a question of whether sovereignty is increasing or decreasing and more importantly if it is felt to be.

AGain , youre fucked up. Dover was tried in a FEd SDistrict (not a local or state court). That is because it was a Constitutional Issue (get it IZY?) not a state or local law being broken.

So teaching Creationism in ENGLISH SCIENCE CLASSES would not be batted an eye against even though the Church of ENgland Supports Evolutionary theory as a fact?

How do you distribute and separate the various opposing worldviews to present it to kids?
Or do you just reserve anything of a deeper intellectual nature for only a precious few?

The state of TExas is 3 times as big as UK and its home of many really worldclass engineering and science Universities . It os also home to a "redneck Fundamentalist" population larger than that ofWALES. We allow them all their freedoms of chooice and religion. We dont allow them to inculcate the public education institutions with their sectarian worldview.
Little Britain, would be relatively easy to govern . Imagine it like it was, where you hadda bluff your way into holding the lid down on a huge empire (How did that work out for you?).
The US has a strong Constitution, Its in effect, It can be changed (with difficulty) and for the most part, IT WORKS PRETTY WELL. Many people are uncomfortable with one or more parts of the document, but it seems to all iron out well, and outsiders will cast what they can at it but I still submit that theres a bit of jealousy in IZZY's tone .

When a document is so clearly written as to be a subject of argument by all classes, it shows something about how good a job was done in its formation.

AS far as looking at its age, The 10 commandments have lasted even longer and noone seems to dispue em. Even I, an atheist, feel that they are a pretty good code of behavior .

3 Replies

@cicerone imposter,

Being buried at Westminster Abbey is a great honour but I prefer Highgate cemetery.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

So teaching Creationism in ENGLISH SCIENCE CLASSES would not be batted an eye against even though the Church of ENgland Supports Evolutionary theory as a fact?

Why would you think that?

1 Reply

@farmerman,

farmerman wrote:

The US has a strong Constitution, Its in effect, It can be changed (with difficulty) and for the most part, IT WORKS PRETTY WELL. Many people are uncomfortable with one or more parts of the document, but it seems to all iron out well, and outsiders will cast what they can at it but I still submit that theres a bit of jealousy in IZZY's tone .

Oh come on. Why do you find it so hard to accept that not everybody wants democracy American style? You remind me of an old baptist preacher refusing to accept that someone doesn't believe in God.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

To my way of thinking, it doesn't matter where most people are buried or cremated. Look at what happened to Vasco de Gama, Christopher Columbus, and Madam Curie. Only the living cares, and they'll be gone too!

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

Why would you think that. (That teaching Creationism would not be batted an eye against in science classes)

BTW it was a question, not a statement of fact. HoweverBecause you claim the secular state condition prevails in UK yet the Creationism push from your own brand of Fundamentalists is growing.
If it wouldnt be tolerated over there , on what basis would the challenge be made if not some law already on the books. Surely you arent saying that some arbitrary new rule would suddenly appear to smite the Creationism tide.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

It's not going to happen. If you knew anything about the UK, you wouldn't have to ask that.

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@izzythepush,

Quote:

You remind me of an old baptist preacher refusing to accept that someone doesn't believe in God.

If you cant be compelling then be insulting. WHY do you even worry about it then ? Its an issue that is important on this side of the ocean. When it grows on yours, then we will talk about what you wish to borrow. Since your codes of laws are kinda arbitrary.

1 Reply

@farmerman,

You claim I'm being insulting when you're the one who implied I wanted ti introduce a state religion to yourt country. I find it insulting that you accuse me of being jealous. Now we're even.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

Or do you just reserve anything of a deeper intellectual nature for only a precious few?

I am afraid to say old boy that that is the case. I have known it for a long time. Long before that fateful day when I was thrown up on A2K's beach. I didn't beach myself. It is precisely where you are going wrong. You have put your finger on the real nub of the issue. Obviously it is un-American. Being know-alls and all.

I agree that it WORKS OUT PRETTY WELL. That's not important. It's the future that's important. Will it work out well?

There's no jealousy in my tone.

One famous historian called the style of the Constitution "laconic" and so it is.

If you agree that the 10 Cs are a sound code of behaviour don't you think you should get behind whatever it is that makes them stick because evolution has no methods in that regard. Or, at least, knock off undermining it.

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