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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 12:23 pm
@spendius,
Politicians are mostly just average people who have the talent to get elected. No Mr. or Governor need. He hasn't qualified as a statesmen -- only a few politicians qualify to be called statesmen. We don't call him Governor Schwarzenegger, we call him the Governator. If you want to put your politicians up on pedestals for worship, be my guest.

I'll just refer to you from now on as Po-pie-ass.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 02:18 pm
@Lightwizard,
Well--I did always have a bit of a thing for Olive Oil. I'm not much of a fan of Madison Avenue woman.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 02:47 pm
@Shirakawasuna,
Thats the ticket. The discussions with IDers is one where , at best, you must accept that there is a crowd out there deciding who they will believe in (unless its a court). Ive seen the most specious arguments carry the day for IDits over science based solely upon format of the speech. Often the scientist is expecting "fair play" and "honest debate" and he will be pummeled with slight of hand.
There are a few really good spokespeople who represent science. However, their full time jobs arent acting as huicksters for Evolution. They will ust pass on an opportunity and will be presented as
"Well, we gave Dr.-------------- an opportunity to meet and debate his views on "EVIL lushun" but he turned us down,Apparently he was not willing to meet Dr ----------------- in open, honest debate"
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 03:01 pm
@farmerman,
That's probably happened more times than not.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 04:26 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
The discussions with IDers is one where , at best, you must accept that there is a crowd out there deciding who they will believe in (unless its a court).


But there's no crowd on here doing that. Frank got pissed with you constantly addressing people who were not on here and who you had chosen yourself like champion boxers do when they get the chance.

I have given you many opportunities to debate teaching evolution (not evolution--teaching it to kids) but you have turned me down more times than I care to remember. Apparently you are not willing to meet in open and honest debate. You have used Ignore too. And evasion. And getting my difficult posts buried pages back.

Both sides use the same strategies. Neither can answer the other side's most telling questions. So they spin out the ephemera. It seems pretty good business.

Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 07:13 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Lamarkian"inheritance of acquired characteristics" and Nat Selection (as conceived by Darwin) are BOTH classically incorrect in that the concept of pangenesis as defined by Darwin , was a similarly wrong answer to the struggle that DArwin had with heritable variation.


Ummm... pangenesis is certainly a hypothesis Darwin made that has been rejected, but it wasn't a part of natural selection. In TOS, he listed a huge number of things and a huge number of possibilities for sources of variation and inheritance. When one mentions Darwinism and isn't being a creationist hack (Ben Stein et al), they are almost never referencing pangenesis as part of it, but primarily Darwin's postulates and natural selection.

As you say, Darwin knew little of the mechanisms of inheritance and neither did Lamarck. That's one of the reasons when we cite Darwinism, we don't include those mechanisms : all that is necessary for his postulates, for example, is that there is at least partial inheritance of parental traits. This is entirely reconcilable with Lamarckism's general traits.

farmerman wrote:
We pretty much agree, however, Gould and ELdredge NEVER proposed PE to be a replacement for nat selection , only a "special case" in which stasis was measurable over significant geologic times.


I agree, of course! If I said something like that, I apologize for miscommunicating.

Very interesting info on Gould + PE. I knew that fellow scientists said many of the punctuations vs. stasis listed by Gould were exaggerated, which sadly is often the case with Gould. I didn't have any specific references, though. I own 'The Structure of Evolutionary Theory', although I haven't exactly finished it. You could teach Pedantry 101 with that thing!

I think it's worth noting that Eldridge was the more reasonable of the two and much more open to correction. Gould, in my opinion, would say/publish things he knew were false just to be a bit of a gadfly or balancing force. His constant railing against a semi-mythical ultra-adaptationist orthodoxy is one example.

I like that quote by Darwin. It can be tied to Gould as well, as he claimed that it was not true imperfections in the fossil record that led him to say that, but rationalizations. The jerk! Far more interesting than any imperfections, I think, are the known biases in the record, the lack of organisms with soft bodies which don't fossilize as obviously or easily. As astounding as our record is, it barely captures a part of a percentage of the total species that have lived.
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 07:15 pm
@Setanta,
But if there's a reproductive advantage, it isn't neutral and isn't genetic drift acting Smile. I know what you're saying, of course, and that's the cool thing about genetic drift interacting with adaptation. It's another potential source of new proteins/functions.
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 07:21 pm
@farmerman,
Indeed. I think it's a good thing, but only needs to be tied to repeated and vocal announcements by the scientist/university: we aren't debating the creotard because we don't take them seriously. If the creationist would like to waste our scientists' time, he can purchase a venue which isn't associated with our academic excellence and we will dress in proper clown suit attire for the "debate".

Then insert a challenge to participate in a public written debate, where showmanship is near-useless. Maybe even throw in the obvious fact that evolution is supported by mounds of evidence and is one of the best-supported theories of science while creationist/ID ideas inevitably turn out to be lies and/or fallacy.
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Mar, 2009 07:23 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
I have given you many opportunities to debate teaching evolution (not evolution--teaching it to kids) but you have turned me down more times than I care to remember. Apparently you are not willing to meet in open and honest debate. You have used Ignore too. And evasion. And getting my difficult posts buried pages back.


Coward. Make your thread with your cogent, coherent argument about the dangers of teaching evolution or you'll be reminded of it every time you try to puff up your chest and pretend you aren't a charlatan.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 05:57 am
@Shirakawasuna,
Quote:
I own 'The Structure of Evolutionary Theory', although I haven't exactly finished it. You could teach Pedantry 101 with that thing!

Its one of the best literarture indices on evo/devo or paleoecology up to 2002. I use mine to cover up the light on the burglar alarm system. It has the perfect thickness. ALthough it does get whipped out for specific paleo references and topics that I need to rush up .

0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 06:33 am
@Shirakawasuna,
Quote:
Ummm... pangenesis is certainly a hypothesis Darwin made that has been rejected, but it wasn't a part of natural selection. In TOS, he listed a huge number of things and a huge number of possibilities for sources of variation and inheritance.


Im not so kind, but in doing so, I think that DArwin may be resurrected in areas that we always considered him flat incorrect and pangenesis is the one area. All of Darwins body of work is related to and pretty much supportive of(except for several descriptive and geology papers) his main lifes work on transmutation. His use of "gemmules" as a mechanism for acquired traits appears in his "The variation of plants and animals under domestication" (1868) and is a major space taker in some of his famous notebooks.

Darwin was considered wrong on some central issues to his theory. He did believe and did assert that the external environment could stimulate the production of heritable variation. This is the stuff that is being looked at now and the core of epigenetic heritability. As ELdredge said,"When it comes to heritable variation there may be circumstances where environmental change does effect heritable change in developmental "timing"". This essentially became the focus of where Darwin and LAmarck joined up and now we are looking at it seriously as a "mechanism level" . DArwin may yet be right on this and It would be laughable to see how the self policing of science dicloses Creationism as even more bunkum because their own position is heavily invested in the " genomic robustness and the staying power of immutable organisms". Here we have some explanations for both PE and possible environmental overprinting.
Under no circumstances do I have a vested dog in the fight. Im an innocent bystander whose own research is involved with being a "customer" of the applications of cladistics to environmental geosciences . However, any new thing that has immediate implications for our work, and Im so there.
If you can recc any techy papers on the subject, I will read em , I am the "Duke of Download"
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 08:35 am
In The Anatomy of Human Destructiveness Erich Fromm wrote-

Quote:
The sadistic character is afraid of everything that is not certain and predictable, that offers surprises which would force him to spontaneous and original reactions. For this reason he is afraid of life. Life frightens him precisely because it is by its very nature unpredictable and uncertain. It is structured but it is not orderly; there is only one certainty in life: that all men die. Love is equally uncertain. To be loved requires a capacity to be loving oneself, to arouse love, and it implies always a risk of rejection and failure. That is why the sadistic character can "love" only when he controls, i.e., when he has power over the object of his love. The sadistic character is usually xenophobic and neophobic--one who is strange constitutes newness. and what is new arouses fear, suspicion, and dislike, because a spontaneous, alive, and non-routinized response would be required.

Another element in the syndrome is the submissiveness and cowardice of the sadist. It may sound like a contradiction that the sadist is a submissive person , and yet not only is it not a contradiction--it is, dynamically speaking, a necessity. He is sadistic because he feels impotent, unalive, and powerless. He tries to compensate for this lack by having power over others, by transforming the worm he feels himself to be into a god. But even the sadist who has power suffers from his human impotence. He may kill and torture, but he remains a loveless, isolated, frightened person in need of a higher power to whom he can submit. For those one step below Hitler, the Fuhrer was this highest power; for Hitler himself, it was Fate, the laws of Evolution.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 09:41 am
NEW MEXICO UPDATE
Quote:
Bill protects ‘controversial science’ teaching
(By Kate Nash, The New Mexican, March 3, 2009)

A measure pending in the Senate Education Committee would protect teachers who want to talk about theories of a “controversial scientific nature,” including but not limited to creationism, its sponsor said.

“There’s fear that if they say the wrong thing at the wrong time with the wrong student present or the wrong authority present, that there could be some reprisal,” said Sen. Kent Cravens, R-Albuquerque, who is carrying the bill.

The measure (SB433) “just asks that if there’s a controversial scientific theory being presented, that a teacher can’t be reprimanded or fired or downgraded or anyway harmed if the teacher happens to mention that there are other theories of controversial scientific nature, to include biological evolution, human cloning, global warming, you name a dozen different things.”

Cravens said the bill isn’t meant to be an anti-Darwinism measure.

“It’s not intended to be,” he said, “It’s just intended to give the teacher the ability to disclose that there may be another way to think about this, whatever subject they are talking about.”

Such measures have been tried unsuccessfully in the Senate in the past. Its chances of passing this session seem slim; if it clears the education committee, it would go to the Senate Judiciary Committee before it could reach the Senate floor. Seventeen days remain in the session.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 10:19 am
The ordinary man with extraordinary power is the chief danger for mankind - not the fiend or the sadist.

Only the person who has faith in himself is able to be faithful to others.

Integrity simple means not violating one's own identity.

~ Nationalism is our form of incest, is our idolatry, is our insanity. "Patriotism" is its cult.

~ Man's main task in life is to give birth to himself, to become what he potentially is. The most important product of his effort is his own personality.

If faith cannot be reconciled with rational thinking,
it has to be eliminated as an anachronistic remnant
of earlier stages of culture and replaced by science
dealing with facts and theories which are intelligible
and can be validated.

-Erich Fromm







farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 10:37 am
@wandeljw,
ACK, I find this a world turned upside down system of logic. They wish to critique a perfectly defined and reasoned THEORY by elevating a worldview into theory status.
Again, for New Mexicaners who like to think without getting yelled at.I might suggest that presenting a theory of natural selection and a modern evolution synthesis together, one must really discuss the "grounds" by which the Creationist thinking has been elevated and how this is all evidenced. Once they do that (if its done honestly), Creationism will fold on its own

Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 10:42 am
@wandeljw,
Yeah, like that would get anywhere in this congress! Bush declared that he was an IDiot, but we all know he was just a plain idiot overall.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 11:35 am
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
If faith cannot be reconciled with rational thinking,


"If". The rest is conditional on that "if". The argument is between those who think faith can be reconciled with rational thinking and those who think it cannot.

And what is rational thinking if not an evolutionary mechanism for survival? Thus we get to the question of whether a society or a culture survives (best) with atheism or faith. And with irrational human nature as the one ingredient. It is certainly irrational to think human nature is rational.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 11:41 am
@farmerman,
We are not discussing Creationism effemm. It's just your favourite sitting duck.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 12:43 pm
No, the rational thinking can easily be secular humanism, agnosticism and deism (or theism), not the disastrous path of disorganized religion. Even the Christian religion is not organized -- there is still the historical (or hysterical) battle of Protestantism against Catholicism going on. It doesn't flare up into a Spanish Inquisition but -- look out! The first step will be to devalue science by teaching religion to young people in our schools, even if their parents do or do not send them to church and if they do, do not demand that they believe in what is being taught there. I don't believe there are religious teachers who are telling their students that the alternative scientific evidence of evolution as opposed to the Old Testament Creationism or the DI version of ID should not be considered in their understanding of God. Never in my deep and relevant association with the Episcopalian priest during college did any of them tell me anything negative about my study of paleontology, evolutionary biology, and all the sciences.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Mar, 2009 02:28 pm
@Lightwizard,
GWBush was a dangerous idiot. Any action he took turned into a disaster.
0 Replies
 
 

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