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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 05:10 pm
@reasoning logic,
I don't know what you are talking about rl.

Do you want mass belief or mass unbelief? You can't promote unbelief unless you want the masses to adopt it. Sell us unbelief.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Tue 6 Sep, 2011 05:48 pm
@spendius,
What would be so bad with knowing that we do not have all the answers but yet we see a need for ethics?


Quote:
Do you want mass belief or mass unbelief?



What do you think about understandings compared to beliefs or better yet faith verses reason?
izzythepush
 
  0  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 01:24 am
@reasoning logic,
Quote:
yet we see a need for ethics?


Of course, otherwise there would be a big gap between London and Suffolk.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 03:57 am
@izzythepush,
Who decides what they consist of? Variations in ethics exist betwen London and Suffolk and between Wimbledon and Soho.

Without a central ecclesiastical authority there would be fragmentation of ethics.

Ethics cannot be subject to reason and logic because then they cease to exist and law becomes the authority. Anti-IDers have no room in their mental frameworks for ethics or morality. Only half-baked anti-IDers could think otherwise.

wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 04:09 am
@spendius,
Isn't Essex between London and Suffolk? I think izzy was making a pun, spendi.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 06:27 am
@wandeljw,
I didn't but now you have mentioned it what do you have in mind?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Sep, 2011 02:00 pm
@spendius,
Most anti-IDers, certainly those on here, in the articles wande quotes and at the NCSE, seem never to have thought of the possibility that Christianity was inevitable. Given increasing trade in a relatively small area of the world, and conquests and interaction generally, a sort of chain reaction was established and at a certain criticality Christianity was not only the result but there could have been no other.

The search for the Holy Grail involved a journey as did Homer's tales. When peoples previously isolated from each other become interdependent for trade, exploit and exogamous generation they are bound to have to compromise and borrow aspects of each other's traditions. That compromise is Christianity. A distillation of all the hopes of mankind as represented by Jesus.

If, as some say, the religious experience of humankind represents an instinctive craving, however dimly apprehended, for a moral being to search for an unknown bliss or blessedness, then this cross-cultural fertilisation, with Palestine at the crossroads, resolves itself, unseen by human eye because constituting billions of interactions over thousands of square miles, into a consensus which we call Christianity. What might be called a spiritual "fact" in the sense that it is shared by all societies at all times and all religions.

It being unseen by human eye being the problem anti-IDers have with the idea because they only accept what they can see. What they can't see doesn't exist for them even if its existence is staring them in the face. As Christianity is. Or they have others, peer-reviewed experts, see for them and to which view they attach social status and invidious distinctions. Which, if rewarded, as Pavlov showed, stamps it in as ineluctable and exclusive. The hallmark of all that is posted here by anti-IDers.

The love and worship of an extra-mundane supreme creator being the fundamental aspect of such a consensus. The pagan gods were at war with each other. One God cannot war. And the goddesses being the cause of the desperation to find bliss.

They tried being tolerant of each other's gods and religious practices but it didn't work out. Bliss was the opposite of what they got with that wet consensus.

And the whole story is a sort of gigantic metaphor or allegory serving to move the increasingly international peoples in the direction of a patriarchal monotheism. A working out of the principles in dramatic form. In the same way that movies work to adjust psychological states. What works to arrive at bliss. As scientific as scientific gets.

And all through atheism is either ignored or seen off with varying degrees of emphasis because it is short-termist, superficial and carnal and puts the process in reverse. It relies on the single ego rather than the collected wisdom for its validation and is always at odds with the collected wisdom because it is inhibited by it for the obvious reason that collections of single egos cannot produce the sought for bliss. Many an eight year old has arrived at atheism on the basis that water cannot be turned into wine as has many an eighteen year old on finding the inhibitions of the collective wisdom to be frustrating in the back seat of a Buick 6.

The invention of an ecclesiastical authority to read the mind of God is thus also inevitable because otherwise we would not be where we are now. Such an authority in its insecure early stages would obviously stamp out any heresies with vigour. Just as the early stages of American civilisation had rough justice.

Does anybody dispute that our search for bliss has not worked when the situation before Christ is taken into account. Waking nightmare seems an understatement. The thought of the coming day must have set every nerve a jangle.





0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 09:26 am
Quote:
Blind Cave Fish May Shed Light on Human Body Clocks
(International Business Times Science News, September 7, 2011)

Blind cave fish have spent millions of years in the dark underground with no concept of day and night, yet scientists have found that they still maintain a working biological clock.

Researchers say that learning more about how these eyeless fish operate could yield new clues on how our own body clocks work.

The Somalian cave fish, Phreatichthys andruzzii, has an inner timekeeper that ticks on a roughly 47-hour cycle determined by food rather than sunlight. This is the intriguing find from an international team of scientists from Italy, Germany, and Spain that was published online September 6 in PLoS Biology.

The researchers hope that their finds will teach scientists more about the molecular pathways that govern such clocks, why they are important to organisms, and how creatures adapt when their clocks are no longer tied to cycles set by sunrise and sunset.

Most living things - animals, plants, some kinds of bacteria - follow the sun to set their daily clocks. Our internal clocks, known as circadian rhythms, govern our sleep patterns, feeding times, rise and fall of blood pressure, and other daily activities. While this clock generally operates on a 24-hour cycle, it is highly adjustable to the natural world, resetting on a daily basis by signals such as daylight to keep synchronized.

Nearly 50 species of fish worldwide have evolved to live without sunlight in caves. Many of these species have evolved into eyeless creatures.

"Cave fish give us a unique opportunity to understand how profoundly sunlight has influenced our evolution," researcher Cristiano Bertolucci, a chronobiologist at the University of Ferrara in Italy, told LiveScience.

Bertolucci and his colleagues compared the swimming behavior and clock-gene activity of the Somalian cave fish, which has lived up to 2.6 million years beneath the desert, with the relatively normal and closely related zebra fish.

Zebra fish run on a circadian clock, synchronizing with cycles of light and dark. As expected, the blind cave fish did not keep in sync with light and dark. However, when a different signal (feeding time) was used, both the zebra fish and cave fished matched, proving that cave fish clocks could work if given a relevant signal like food.

Researchers then gave the cave fish a chemical known to activate clock genes in normal fish. Surprisingly, the blind fish's circadian rhythms began moving on a bizarre 47-hour cycle.

While the cave fish can no longer operate on a 24-hour cycle, the test showed that the core components of the fish's biological clock remained functioning.

"We're watching a clock in the process of being broken," study author Nicholas S. Foulkes, of Karlsruhe Institute of Technology in Germany, told ScienceNews.

Foulkes added that in another million years or so, the cave fish may lose other important clock parts as well.

In another experiment, the team found that raising the temperature in the lab sped up the cave fish clock, while lowering the temperature slowed it down. This is also unusual, as most organisms' circadian clocks remain insulated from temperature change.

The findings confirm that the cave fish clock is still ticking, even though it can no longer be set by light. In contrast, zebra fish clocks respond to both light and food.

"This study sets the stage for a more complete understanding of how clocks respond to their environment," Foulkes said in the study.

For humans, there is great interest in the recent finding that light's effects on the circadian clock are mediated by non-visual pathways in the brain. Also, because the human circadian system is known to be important in health and illness (especially mental health), understanding our body clocks better can help address a core vulnerability in our own circadian system.


A report on this study is available at the Public Library of Science website:
http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1001141
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 8 Sep, 2011 11:29 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Researchers then gave the cave fish a chemical known to activate clock genes in normal fish.


No doubt when the science is perfected the fat-cat Republicans will put it in the worker's nutrient so that they can work 36 hour shifts and the fat-cats can indulge themselves with the proceeds.

What a load of absurd oversimplifications there are in that lot. Jobs for the boys eh? And, no doubt, some girls.

I don't know how deep underground these fish live but photons have been detected in deep mines. Only between sunrise and sunset.

How is the 47 hour cycle determined by food?

What on earth is "a core vulnerability in our own circadian system" supposed to mean?

0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 02:02 pm
Quote:
Fossil Finds Complicate Search for Human Ancestor
(Erin Wayman, Smithsonian Magazine, September 9, 2011)

Australopithecines lived in Africa some 4 million to 2 million years ago. Scientists speculate that the australopithecines gave rise to our own genus, Homo, sometime around 2 million years ago, but there’s not much fossil evidence to show exactly when or how this happened. But last year, scientists led by Lee Berger of the University of Witwatersrand announced they had found a possible candidate ancestor of Homo: Australopithecus sediba. The species lived 1.977 million years ago and resembled Homo in many ways.

This week, the researchers published five papers in the journal Science that provide a more in-depth look at the species. Experts are excited about the fossils, but do not agree on where A. sediba belongs in the human family tree—and in some sense, its discovery muddies the picture of human evolution at this critical transition 2 million years ago.

The new studies analyze two partial skeletons found in Malapa Cave in South Africa: a 12- to 13-year-old male and an adult female. Here’s a rundown of the key findings:

Brain: The researchers studied the size and shape of the young male’s brain by taking X-ray scans of his skull and creating a virtual 3-D endocast. A. sediba had a small brain—420 cubic centimeters—only slightly bigger than a chimpanzee brain or half the size of a Homo erectus brain. But the shape and organization of part of the frontal lobe appear similar to Homo. The team says this may mean brain reorganization came before a big jump in brain size in humans.

Pelvis: The pelvis had a mix of australopithecine- and Homo-like traits. This is interesting because some of A. sediba’s more advanced traits, like the shape and orientation of the ilium, were thought to have evolved in the genus Homo to accommodate bigger-brained babies as they came through the birth canal. But since A. sediba had these features and a small brain, another factor probably drove the evolution of these traits; they could be the result of spending even more time walking on the ground and less time in the trees, the researchers suggest.

Hands and Feet: The team found a nearly complete wrist and hand for the species as well as a partial foot and ankle. The foot had a unique mix of traits not seen in any other hominid, suggesting A. sediba had its own form of upright walking and probably still climbed trees. The hand also indicates A. sediba was a climber, but it shows that the hominid had the musculature and anatomy necessary for a “precision grip,” when the thumb meets the fingertips. This movement is what allows you to thread a needle or hold a pencil—and it probably enabled A. sediba to make and use stone tools, the researchers say, although they have not yet found any tools with the species.

Here’s why A. sediba complicates things. For the species to be the ancestor of Homo, it had to have lived before the first species of that genus. That’s just common sense. And it’s true for what the researchers call the “earliest uncontested evidence” of Homo: Homo erectus, at 1.9 million years ago.

But then there’s the contested evidence. At roughly 2.4 million years ago—before A. sediba— a species called H. habilis (“handy man”) lived in Africa, although the researchers say there is disagreement over what fossils should be included in this species. If this handy man is really the earliest member of Homo, it’s hard to call A. sediba an ancestor (unless, perhaps, additional fossil finds push back A. sediba’s age).

In some ways, H. habilis is more human-like than earlier hominids; it had a much larger brain, for example. But in other ways, such as the anatomy of the hand, A. sediba is more human-like than H. habilis, Berger and his colleagues say. What does this all mean? It’s unclear. But at the very least, several different types of Homo-like hominids probably all lived at about the same time—making it a “most challenging endeavor,” the researchers say, to figure out how these forms relate to each other and which if any best represents the ancestor of our genus.

As paleoanthropologists like to say, more fossils may help clarify things—or muddle them even more.
MontereyJack
 
  2  
Reply Fri 9 Sep, 2011 08:55 pm
Hey, gunga snaKKKe where are you? Notice what they're saying in wandel's quoted article. It's a TRANSITIONAL FOSSIL, just like the thousands of others of other species that have been found--it exhibits characteristics in between australopithecine and homo. You really ought to bring you-cut-and-paste files up to date, with this further evidence that transitional fossils, like for example tiktalik, really do exist in the appropriate strata where they should be from DNA extrapolations, i.e. evolution is an accurate picture of biological process.
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 02:58 am
@MontereyJack,
Gunga can't be with you right now, his brain is being retuned.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 04:14 am
@MontereyJack,
Quote:
evolution is an accurate picture of biological process.


So what? What have biological processes got to do with compulsory education?
izzythepush
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 04:51 am
@spendius,
If you'd ever had to teach a bunch of teenagers you'd know biological processes, especially the overproduction of hormones, have a great deal to do with educational outcomes.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 05:26 am
@izzythepush,
I have taught a large number of teenagers and the whole point was to negate biology. Civilisation is the negation of biology. To raise biological process to the status of wisdom is a recipe for anarchy. For well fixed persons such as our anti-IDers it is insanity.

There is no such thing as the "overproduction of hormones" to a biologist and such a man has necessarily no view about the consequences of above average hormone production. Any above average hormone production and the consequences are simply facts to be dealt with in the same way that the outsize clothing industry deals with people running to fat due to above average production of food, taste amplifiers and invidious distinction possibilities.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 05:45 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Australopithecines lived in Africa some 4 million to 2 million years ago. Scientists speculate that the australopithecines gave rise to our own genus, Homo, sometime around 2 million years ago...


That turns out to be a bunch of bullshit.

http://able2know.org/topic/166283-1

Basic cold, hard reality is that the Neanderthal has been ruled out as a human ancestor precisely because the genetic gap is too wide and all other hominids were substantially further removed from us THAN the neanderthal.

Too-genetically-remote-to-be-descended-from is a transitive relationship; there is no hominid from which we could be descended via any process resembling evolution.

There are three choices:

  • We were created here, recently.
  • We were brought here from elsewhere in the cosmos.
  • We arose from the Neanderthal via some genetic -re-engineering process as opposed to evolution.


Going on with the claim that we evolved from some remote hominid ancestor is basically denying the reality of logic.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 06:58 am
@gungasnake,
Are you Southern Baptist? What do you think about Molecular Genetics?





spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 09:45 am
@reasoning logic,
Would you consider it a subject fit for your scientific enquiries rl that the particular configuration in the molecules of the jism from which you were generated might have been dependent on the mood of the participants to the transaction and the mode of operations and the key driver in the choice from many millions of that special one whose qualities you have inherited?

You're playing with words again hoping to impress the kiddiwinks.

Your science is similar in one important respect to those piano legs it was deemed necessary to veil in Victorian times and is only deemed un-necessary now because no piano manufacturer dare exercise the imagination upon them.
reasoning logic
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 10:39 am
@spendius,
You misspelled two words {You're}and {Your} You should of spelled them {I'm} and {My} I will help you and insert the correct spelling so that you can see Rolling Eyes


Would you consider it a subject fit for your scientific enquiries rl that the particular configuration in the molecules of the jism from which you were generated might have been dependent on the mood of the participants to the transaction and the mode of operations and the key driver in the choice from many millions of that special one whose qualities you have inherited?

I'm playing with words again hoping to impress the kiddiwinks.

My science is similar in one important respect to those piano legs it was deemed necessary to veil in Victorian times and is only deemed un-necessary now because no piano manufacturer dare exercise the imagination upon them.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 10 Sep, 2011 11:09 am
@reasoning logic,
I take it that your science stops at the level of the prim New England schoolmarm. That it is the labels you are interested in and not the things they signify.

I trust I didn't make you blush.

You brought up molecular genetics and the first response causes you to bolt down a hole of your own construction.

Reality. Truth. Logic. Reason. Don't make me laugh.

I also take it you will now depart the thread.
 

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