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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 01:00 pm
@cicerone imposter,
If its from on "high enough" it becomes morals no?

These are the really deep questions.

EG
If spendi no longer talked out of his ass, would he be able to speak at all?
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 01:28 pm
@spendius,
spendius wrote:
Bugger off you silly sod. Most of them have me on Ignore because they are frightened of discussing the social consequences of having no morality. They ran off waving a white flag. Have you not been keeping up.


Don't flatter yourself. They consider you a troll. You take up an awful lot of useless space with your idiotic posts.

So how about starting up that thread where you make a coherent and cogent argument concerning the consequences of evolutionary theory? Eager minds want to know whether you're as ignorant and full of it as you seem.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 01:33 pm
@Shirakawasuna,
Did he propose that? I must have had him on ignore and missed that. Id love to debate his views. Course wed have to take a drug that would paralyze one hemisphere of our brains so itd be fair to him.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Feb, 2009 04:07 pm
@farmerman,
The sheer hubris!! If you paralyzed half your brains it would at least be a step in the right direction.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 05:56 am
@spendius,
OK I just jammed a pen deeply into my right eye and have rendered myself lobotomized and have done a sinistral hemispherical resection. Lawd, I can spell sinistral without any typos. HALELLELUJAH.

ANYWAY, Im all set now to debate spendi on his level.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 07:44 am
@farmerman,
Right then--

Who or what does the coalition of the lobby group promoting the teaching of evolution consist of? What are the possible motives?

What outcomes socially can be expected if the whole population comes to accept the theory of evolution? Which must be the ultimate aim to justify the project when, on the face of it, it looks to be unacceptable to a majority of Americans and a large majority in some states.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 09:07 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Who or what does the coalition of the lobby group promoting the teaching of evolution consist of?
You are, of course , assuming that there is such a "lobby" group. I have no idea that one does exist as a registered lobby group. Do you?

Quote:
What outcomes socially can be expected if the whole population comes to accept the theory of evolution?
. Youve got this totally backwards. Its the Cretinists/IDjits who are trying to insert their worldview into scince classes. What benefit (socially or otherwise) would accrue with that approach? Do we teach Shamanism in History, or herbalism in Health classes?
How bout witchcraft in Home EConomics? DO any of these ring a bell?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 09:41 am
Quote:
Utah policy on evolution helps land science conference
(By Brian Maffly, The Salt Lake Tribune, February 19, 2009)

A national biological society has diverted its annual meeting to Salt Lake City, snubbing New Orleans because of Louisiana's recent embrace of a law widely panned as anti-science.

The Louisiana Science Education Act -- similar to a measure Utah lawmakers rejected three years ago -- allows local school boards to introduce creationist materials into the classroom under the guise of promoting "critical thinking" toward the theory of evolution, critics say.

"This law undermines the integrity of science and science education in Louisiana," wrote Richard Satterlie, president of the Society for Integrative and Comparative Biology, in Feb. 5 letter to Gov. Bobby Jindal, who signed the controversial bill into law last June.

"Utah, in contrast, passed a resolution that states that evolution is central to any science curriculum," the letter continued. "As scientists it is our responsibility to oppose anti-science initiatives."

The 2011 event will bring up to 2,000 biologists to Salt Lake City for the first week of January. For Satterlie, it was a tough call to bail on New Orleans, which twice hosted the society before Hurricane Katrina's devastating 2005 visit.

"It has been a very popular venue. The people are nice and there's lots to do," said Satterlie, a neuroscientist at the University of North Carolina-Wilmington. "It's a city in recovery. The city can use the business. And taking away a conference like ours from the state where the teachers and students could benefit really weighed heavily."

One of Salt Lake's selling points, besides its great snow, is Utah Board of Education policy, Satterlie said.

"Viewing present-day organisms as products of evolution provides the most productive framework for investigating and understanding their structure and function. As such, evolution is a unifying concept for science and provides the foundation for understanding nature," says the board's policy on teaching evolution.

Utah lawmakers have grappled with calls for creationist-inspired teachings in classrooms, but the 2006 Legislature settled the question in favor of science.

"It is great that it's not being held against us. People outside the state see we have gotten past this question," said University of Utah biologist Denise Dearing, a SICB member. "It's wrong to confuse faith with science. It's not a substitute."

Louisiana is now seeing the economic consequences of allowing those with a religious agenda to muddy science education, said pro-science activist Barbara Forrest.

"[SISB's] discipline has been attacked in this state. They made a decision like an industry that wants to relocate here and they can't get the support of the state," said Forrest, co-founder of the Louisiana Coalition for Science and co-author of Creationism's Trojan Horse: The Wedge of Intelligent Design.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 11:11 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
You are, of course , assuming that there is such a "lobby" group. I have no idea that one does exist as a registered lobby group. Do you?


No. But I never mentioned "registered". I used the word in its loosest possible meaning.

Quote:
. Youve got this totally backwards. Its the Cretinists/IDjits who are trying to insert their worldview into scince classes. What benefit (socially or otherwise) would accrue with that approach? Do we teach Shamanism in History, or herbalism in Health classes?
How bout witchcraft in Home EConomics? DO any of these ring a bell?


I think of science classes in a social context. And thus that " Cretinists/IDjits" are not trying to insert anything but are trying to resist the insertion of something into that social context.

The use of "Cretinists/ IDjits" tells me that you are not ready to debate anything, as you said you were. One doesn't debate with people one has no respect for.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 11:32 am
spendi wrote:
Quote:

I think of science classes in a social context. And thus that " Cretinists/IDjits" are not trying to insert anything but are trying to resist the insertion of something into that social context.


The only "science" in a social context would be psychology or psychiatry. Trying to insert creationism into science is attempting to mix apples and oranges to create a new fruit. There is no need to mix those two "specialties." Creationism rightfully belongs in Philosophy where participants can Q&A all they want about gods, ID and heaven.
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 01:33 pm
spendius wrote:

Who or what does the coalition of the lobby group promoting the teaching of evolution consist of? What are the possible motives?

What outcomes socially can be expected if the whole population comes to accept the theory of evolution? Which must be the ultimate aim to justify the project when, on the face of it, it looks to be unacceptable to a majority of Americans and a large majority in some states.


You sound interested in exploring this topic of consequences. Note that it conflicts with the title and continued point (as wandeljw keeps reminding us). If you want to discuss it without (yet again) derailing a topic, make your own thread. I won't make it for you.
0 Replies
 
Shirakawasuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 01:36 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It doesn't even 'belong' in Philosophy, where it often fails just a royally as it does when it tries to be "scientific". It belongs in the beautiful and well-populated land of sophistry. Sadly, there aren't any high school classes on sophistry. Poor kids.
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 01:51 pm
@wandeljw,
Wandel's source wrote:
The 2011 event will bring up to 2,000 biologists to Salt Lake City for the first week of January. For Satterlie, it was a tough call to bail on New Orleans, which twice hosted the society before Hurricane Katrina's devastating 2005 visit.


This is what will eventually decide these issues, and this is true everywhere in the world, not just in the United States. Two thousand biologists, and very likely a great many of their husbands or wives, will mean literally millions of dollars infused into the economy of Salt Lake in the course of a few days. That kind of capital injection is important at any time, and will be especially important in these times. This sends a strong signal to municipal authorities and business people everywhere about the value of having an image of intelligence and progressive attitudes toward people and ideas.

Contrast that with the message which Dover sent to municipal authorities and school boards across the country. That message was that if the loony stealth candidates of the religious right get on school boards, that if law suits are brought because school boards do not maintain reasonable standards in science education, cash-strapped school boards can see hundreds of thousands, and perhaps even millions of dollars bled away to defend against law suits that need never have been brought.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 04:55 pm
@Setanta,
I wish that were true, but religion seems to transcend almost everything else - including "millions of dollars" in added revenue. They're going to continue to push for ID in their schools - because they believe god told them to do it.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 04:59 pm
Quote:
spendi wrote: Quote:

I think of science classes in a social context. And thus that " Cretinists/IDjits" are not trying to insert anything but are trying to resist the insertion of something into that social context.
. THAT sort of demonstrates why we have little to discuss. If your mindset is so ossified as to actually believe that, then you have little to offer science or social study.

Why not insert some shamanism into piano lessons?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 05:03 pm
@Shirakawasuna,
This is what I was referring to (from Wiki):
Quote:
'Philosophy of religion' is a branch of philosophy that is concerned with the philosophical study of religion, including arguments over the nature and existence of God, religious language, miracles, prayer, the problem of evil, and the relationship between religion and other value-systems such as science and ethics, among others.[citation needed] It is sometimes distinguished from "religious philosophy", the philosophical thinking that is inspired and directed by religion, such as Christian philosophy and Islamic philosophy. Instead, philosophy of religion is the philosophical thinking about religion, which can be carried out dispassionately by a believer and non-believer alike.[1]
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 07:00 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
Why not insert some shamanism into piano lessons?


I've seen pianists play in shaman mode. In fact they are the only ones who are any good.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Thu 19 Feb, 2009 07:30 pm
@farmerman,
How about some Voodoo introduced into cooking classes? I love that Creole cuisine, but finding a burlap doll with a hatpin through it as a garnish to my Jambalaya would be really disconcerting. Especially if under the garnish there's a toad. Voodoo is just as valid as any of the metaphysical, supernatural beliefs passed of as spirituality. There's just as much proof that it works as well as any belief to ward of evil and disease.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 05:13 am
@Lightwizard,
Vodoo is black magic LW.

Love thy neighbour as thyself, keep a clean head and always carry a lightbulb are white magic.

Very few men would marry a woman who had attended cookery classes in which Voodoo was a component whereas nice Christian ladies are quite popular.

Females operating under strict scientific principles are known to be somewhat difficult to handle and it isn't guaranteed that they will be better biologists either despite assertions to the contrary.

Your basic difficulty is that you think of education classes in the same way you might think of a problem in chess which is disconnected from the exigencies of the real world.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 03:28 pm
@spendius,
While we are on about cookery classes it might be worth saying that rhetoric aiming at teaching evolution theory in school classrooms which pays no heed to the social consequences is similar to that aspect of food pornography which flatters the palate of the multitude without any regard for their health.

My challenge to the teaching of evolution is based upon the abject failure of the proponents of it to pay the slightest attention to the social consequences of doing so and that this failure is so glaringly obvious that, so far at least, those proponents are not taking the matter seriously but are playing a self-indulgent and self-justifying game in which the well being of the multitude is the ball to be kicked about at their solitary individual pleasure.

But I will admit that nothing else can be expected of an evolutionist if he is consistent. The pleasures of rhetoric are freely granted. It is delightful to hold forth and the pleasure increases as the skill in the art improves. It is well known that excellent rhetoricians are addicted to the sound of themselves holding forth and when they are heedless of the well being of the multitude, the passions of which are easily swayed, their flights of fancy can easily range over uncharted territory and can prove quite dangerous.

Deficiences in the skill can be to some extent made up for by a propaganda blitz coming from a coalition of interests where quantity substitutes for quality.

His problem arises when he has persuaded everybody else to play the same game and he starts whining about being the ball in someone else's game whose right to also play that game he has conceded by claiming it for himself unless, of course, he claims rights which he denies to others. Which I expect he does.
0 Replies
 
 

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