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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 06:39 am
Something which makes fundamental religious folks balk (or "bawk," if one prefers).
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 06:52 am
@High Seas,
Quote:
Waste no more time explaining anything to him
What, and let you have all the fun?
Ianswered spendis question and he then slipped into his normal A1 defense mode of "You dont answer my questions"

I beleive taht he sees the world as one big tap room, where everything is handed to him like a glass of suds.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 06:58 am
@rosborne979,
ros was quoting Ionuis who said

Quote:
declaring something to be a fact because you believe it requires a leap of faith that would make some fundamental religious people bawk.
Science has always been self correcting and of the moment. Religion is static and brittle.
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 07:00 am
@rosborne979,
Quote:
Within science there is no leap of faith, only a leap of understanding.
Come off the grass.....how many theories have been totally abandoned becasue they were wrong AFTER they gained wide acceptance by your holier than thou scientists ?

Quote:
In science we don't declare something a fact because we believe it
THAT is exactly what you do.
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 07:05 am
@Setanta,
I accept your offer to be my spell checker. I hope you are aware I am dyslexic and you will have your work cut out for you. I realise it is a tedious mundane and very simple task so I hope you are up to it. Also if it doesnt work out for us I understand Famerman is in much greater need. In the meantime, I am sure there are some filthy foriegners you can call stupid because they dont speak english.
0 Replies
 
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 07:08 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Religion is static and brittle.
Your knowledge of religion could be deemed non-existant by that statement alone. Nothing could be further from the truth.
Quote:
Science has always been self correcting and of the moment.
Which includes everyone pushing to get to the front of the queque to back slap the latest theory proponent and perhaps get money with them.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 07:32 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
.....how many theories have been totally abandoned becasue they were wrong AFTER they gained wide acceptance by your holier than thou scientists ?

I seem to reacll several "theories" were only abandoned after their religiously based suppositions were found to be false. Remember Terracentrism or "Proving a historical Adam". How bout phlogiston or the sorcerers stone?

If you continue on this line Im sure we can easily dismiss and debunk your faulty reasoning."Here there be dragons" was enscribed on cartography until the "edge effect" as anticipated by Biblical reference was found to be not worth the parchment upon which it was scribed.
farmerman
 
  2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 07:39 am
@Ionus,
Quote:
Which includes everyone pushing to get to the front of the queque to back slap the latest theory proponent and perhaps get money with them.
AHA, so its jealousy as well as an unwavering acceptance of poofistic subtext.

Quote:
Your knowledge of religion could be deemed non-existant by that statement alone. Nothing could be further from the truth
Im all ears reverend. Please enlighten me with some good examples. I suppose that, Frank Collins, the director of the US genome project at the NIH ( he is an evangelical (but not fully fundamental) has been petitioning his Evangelical Fundamentl brothers to even accept scientific facts and the fact of evolution or his religion will be marginalized worldwide, this is what you consider being "mlleable to the times". Thats hardly "self correcting" Its merely disposing of some silly superstitions that hd no basis in fact EVER..


Quote:
understand Famerman is in much greater need.
See the hypocrisy in your positions, You want your deference and worship , ao when you are correted you take great issue, yet its ok for you to call out the beam in your neighbors eye. Merely celebrate your shortcomings . (I dont think anyone gives a rats ass about the fact that your dyslectic any more than they care about my blowed up hand and arm.
Beddy bye for you, no?
Ionus
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 07:42 am
@farmerman,
Oh, you mean like the scientific Bottom of the Oceans is Dead Flat Theory ? Or Hawking's theories on the event horizon ? Or Einstien's theories on Sub-Atomic theory ? Shall we go on ?
Ionus
 
  -1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 07:50 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
acceptance of poofistic subtext.
READ MY LIPS - I AM NOT RELIGIOUS. Will you be able to remember that or shall I type it again ?

Quote:
Im all ears reverend.
I am as much a religious person as you are a scientist. We all know how little that is....

Quote:
Religion is static and brittle.
That was your quoted statement...unless you wish to retract it.....and I replied :
Quote:
Nothing could be further from the truth.

To which you replied :
Quote:
I suppose that, Frank Collins, the director of the US genome project at the NIH ( he is an evangelical (but not fully fundamental) has been petitioning his Evangelical Fundamentl brothers to even accept scientific facts and the fact of evolution or his religion will be marginalized worldwide.
Relevance ? How is that related to "Religion is static and brittle"?

Even if you prove Christianity is "static and brittle" Very Happy after 2,000 years.......you do know there are other religions out there apart from the fundamentalists you love to hate ?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 08:40 am
@Ionus,
YEs lets. Einstein admitted that his biggest **** up was to deny Quantum Theory.

What part of SELF CORRECTING are you having trouble dealing with?
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 08:49 am
TEXAS UPDATE
Quote:
Charter schools with ties to religious groups raise fears about state funds' use
(By JESSICA MEYERS / The Dallas Morning News / November 22, 2010)

Students at Duncanville's Advantage Academy follow biblical principles, talk openly about faith and receive guidance from a gregarious former pastor who still preaches when he speaks.

But his congregation is a swath of low-income students. And his sermon is an educator's mantra about the opportunities of charter schools.

Advantage's state-funded campuses showcase the latest breed of charter schools, born from faith-based principles and taxpayer funds. More than 20 percent of Texas' charter schools have some kind of religious ties. That's the case for six of the seven approved this year.

Church-charter partnerships are springing up across the country as private institutions lose funding and nontraditional education models grow in popularity. Their emergence prompts questions about the role religious groups should play in the development of publicly funded schools.

"The church-state line is beginning to blur," said Bruce Cooper, a professor at Fordham University's Graduate School of Education, who has studied religious charter schools. "We may be coming to a midpoint between the best of what is private and the best of what is public."

Critics fear the fuzzy division means taxpayers are footing the bill for religious instruction.

"You have to wonder what the impetus is," said Dan Quinn, a spokesman for Texas Freedom Network, an Austin watchdog group focused on church-state issues. "What is the catalyst for becoming a charter because at that point they've abandoned the mission of being a religious institution?"

Charter schools are public schools run by private groups and approved by the State Board of Education. They are freed of many state rules. But they must adhere to the state's accountability tests and maintain a separation of church and state. Religious groups may apply to open a charter school if they establish a separate nonprofit to receive state funds.

Even with a middleman, heavy overlap exists between the school and the religious group that supports it. Dozens of Texas charter school leaders or board members hold prominent positions in the church, where the schooling sometimes takes place. Parochial schools reinvent themselves as charters, often with little guidance on running a public school. And the mission of the school itself typically stems from the values of the religious group.

These close ties stir concern that churches will use state funds to bolster their coffers. In Houston, the Rev. Harold Wilcox and several church members were indicted six years ago for embezzling federal and state funds through Prepared Table Charter School. Wilcox paid himself a $210,000 annual salary to run the school and received $68,000 in rent for classes held in his Baptist church sanctuary.

A decade ago, the state launched an investigation into Dallas' Rylie Faith Family Academy and discovered dozens of family and church members on the founders' payroll. The group installed professional educators and cleaned up its books. Rylie Faith still runs two Dallas charter schools.

Advantage Academy sits in two nondescript one-story buildings on the edge of Duncanville, next to a bank and a guarded office complex. Poster board covers the walls inside with stenciled letters that read "Character Counts." Reminders of the academy's seven pillars, including integrity, humility and authority, hang in classrooms next to pie charts and pictures of President Barack Obama.

Advantage markets its teaching of creationism and intelligent design. It offers a Bible class as an elective and encourages personal growth through hard work and "faith in God and country." On a recent morning, a dozen uniformed seventh-graders hunched over worksheets, turning fractions into decimals.

Allen Beck, the academy's founder and a former Assemblies of God pastor, hopes to instill morals and ethics in students as they learn to count and read. "America is in a battle between secularity and biblical thinking," he said. "I want to fuse the two together in a legal way."

Religiously affiliated charters like Beck's tend to emphasize similar themes of developing character and shaping values. His office is filled with books about Abraham Lincoln, seminary degrees and a whiteboard that details a path from victim to victory. "Education" appears as the middle link, right before "acting in faith."

"It's a balancing act," he said.

The ties extend beyond Christian organizations. Houston's highly regarded Harmony Public Schools are run by Turkish Muslims who embody the philosophies of a popular imam. Islamic Relief sponsors Minnesota's Tarek ibn Ziyad Academy, whose curriculum emphasizes Muslim culture and Arabic language. Students at Ben Gamla Charter School in Florida eat kosher food in the cafeteria and learn Hebrew.

These charter schools may operate because they say they don't endorse religion - they accommodate it.

They also provide space. Charter schools don't receive local property taxes or state funds for construction, meaning they must scout their own locations.

Leadership Prep School found its home at Frisco's Elevate Life Church. Steve Miner, the church's business administrator, calls the relationship a tenant-renter one. Frisco's first charter school will open there next fall.

Members of Elevate Life approached church officials a year ago and asked if they'd help establish an alternative schooling option in Collin County.

"A lot of community action is happening in our churches," Miner said. "It seems like a natural alignment."

The school will emphasize leadership, one of Elevate Life's key principles. But pastors won't work there, and no religious classes will take place during school hours, Miner said.

Religious boundaries appear even hazier for former parochial schools, whose dwindling resources make charters an ideal option.

"It's a large learning curve," said David Ray, who took over South Dallas' St. Anthony School a year after it switched to a charter campus. "When I came in, they were still doing Catholic curriculum. Everything totally changed, with the exception of the building."

St. Anthony Church's white crosses peek over the school's thick iron gate. Words like "risk-taker" and "confidence" are scrawled on cafeteria walls, part of an outside program Ray implemented that promotes culture and self-reflection. Only two of the Catholic teaching staff remain.

Ray gets intercepted regularly for hugs when he walks down the school's tiny hallways. About half of the graduating middle school students go on to Dallas magnet schools. Dallas Diocese members make up much of the board, but Ray insists the school's operations are separate from those of the church next door.

Lawrence Weinberg, who wrote one of the first books on religious charters, sees these connections as an inevitable part of public-private relationships. As long as they don't force faith on students, he also sees them as hope.

"Urban education is in crisis," he said. "If public schools are not doing their job and religious organizations are willing to make a partnership and educate these kids, be happy. That's the starting point."
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 08:57 am
@wandeljw,
Here in Pa, the xharter schools, unlike PArochial schools, receive good half of the per student funding. Its usually done as a "for profit" organization. The teaching is often very doctrinaire about history and (never guess would ya) SCIENCE. Some of the big charter school cpompanies are LLC's begun by some churchs. The public school system in which the kids would have attended, are payed their half of the per student pwr diem and the public schools dont bitch. In fact, they are veeerrrry quiet. They are getting "Free money" and nobody is watching the charter school too closely. There will , no doubt, be a test case sometime. However we must remember that the parenst are often attracted to some of these charter schools with their 'nudge nudge, know what ah mean?" attitude
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 09:13 am
These are matters for the states, so long as the no establishment clause and the free exercise clause have not been incorporated. Until such time, the only thing that can happen in the courts is that someone in each state which perceives this as a problem has to challenge the practices in the courts. If it gets to a Federal court, and if said court claims a violation of the no establishment clause, and finally, if the defendant in the case (which will be the state in question) appeals, then it could get to the Supremes. As it stands right now, though, there is no reason to assume that the states are operating outside their authority.
spendius
 
  -2  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 09:21 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Ianswered spendis question and he then slipped into his normal A1 defense mode of "You dont answer my questions"


Oh yeah!! You said this--

Quote:
Within the theory of evolution, there reside several "Laws"...


I asked you what they were and you come up with some labels as if they are laws. Labels define nothing.

What are these "laws" of evolution?
msolga
 
  3  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 09:56 am
@spendius,
Spendius, I find it curious that you are asking for answers from the very folk whose arguments you've constantly rejected.
Personally, I can't see why farmer, or anyone else, would go to the trouble of accommodating you any further than they already have.
Why would they bother?
If you don't know, then why not do a bit of research for yourself?
It isn't that difficult, after all.
spendius
 
  -3  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 11:36 am
@msolga,
Go suck a lemon Olga.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 11:46 am
@Setanta,
I dont know how charter schools operate in other states other than Pa, NY, NJ, and Md. In thise states the Charter school LLC actually receives hlf of the perstudent stipend that the public schools get. The proviso is that the Charter SChool (CS) teaches and is mmeasured by state standards.
As weve found in PA, several of the LLCs are actually EVangelical churches. The LLCs are being watched carefully so that they dont become Jr "Liberty Colleges"
NOW, a parent (or three) would have to file a suit ala Dover for teaching issues that cross the wall in accordance with all the USSC and Fed District courts have decreed.

SInce the public schools get the other hlf of the money and dont have to put upwith the kids, they are happy.

0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 12:30 pm
@msolga,
You are addressing a fraudster - at your peril, as you saw. Here are my grounds for this characterization: the "gentleman" in question has claimed on this thread (I don't follow the other evolution thread or any of the discussions on theology) that he has an advanced degree in the sciences (either material sciences or chemistry) from a British university. Now even an undergraduate scientific degree at any accredited UK university would certainly require that he understand the precise meaning of the quoted paragraph - no matter whether the degree had been granted in mathematics, engineering, chemistry, or any related field. Parenthesis here to say context of quote was linked on previous pages, so there's no excuse other than shameless fraud.
High Seas
 
  0  
Reply Thu 25 Nov, 2010 12:35 pm
@farmerman,
He came around on that one (per Feynman, who studied with him at Princeton) and moved his "confession" of a "goof" to the cosmological constant. Ironically the dark matter/dark energy needed to balance the gravitational forces do require some such constant in order to get the equations to work.
0 Replies
 
 

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