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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
Ionus
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 08:29 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Explain why it is "critical" for 50 million adolescents as opposed to the few people who are going to get their living, or excuses for certain rejections of Christian morality, from a study of evolution.
THAT is your main recurrent theme, and you know what Spendi ?......they wont answer it because they cant. THAT is why some have you on ignore...they are an emotional bundle of rags who cant debate without pleading poor in intelligence.

I worry that with enough of these Atheists/Scientists we will have to relive the Nazi experiments all over again. The only reason for morality is if it suits their survival...evolution tells us so.....if morality is a handicap then they will die out or change to no morality. Evolution doesnt lie. Evolutionists do.
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  2  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 09:06 am
@Ionus,
I'm not getting into a pointless argument with you IO, you have your facts and way of interpreting them, as have I.
The first lifeforms

The earth was formed about 4,5 billion years ago. 3,5 Billion years ago the earth was a wild piece of rock. The earth already had an atmosphere then, but the composition was different. There was probably a lot of carbon- gas in the atmosphere and no oxygen.


Fig 2.1.1:
Miller's apparatus
In 1951, the American Miller succeeded to form organic matter out of a mixture of ammonia (NH3), methane (CH4), hydrogen (H2) and water (H2O) by exposing this mixture to an electric current. During the experiments different organic mixtures were formed, among them amino acids and nuclein acids. These acids are essential for the building of proteins and chromosomes.

It is possible that these circumstances also occurred in the past. In the primal atmosphere, which was cooling down, the composition of matter was probably the same as in Miller's experiments.

Through lightning organic connections were formed and fell into the prehistoric seas. Through evaporation of the inside seas, concentration might have occurred, giving rise to organic "primal soup". In this primal soup first bigger molecules were formed and later the first forms of life. This origin of life out of lifeless matter is called biogenesis.

About 3,5 billion years ago the first one-celled life forms were formed. These could do photosynthesis: that is they used carbonic oxide and water to make proteins, fats and other organic connections. This transformation costs energy, which they would get from the sunlight. Organisms like this still exist. Algae, plants and trees can do photosynthesis too. The chemistry of this transformation looks like this: 6 parts of CO2 (Carbonic oxide) + 5 parts of H2O water) are transformed with help of sunlight into: 1 part of C6H10O5 (farina) + 6 parts of O2 (oxygen).

In that period of time the atmosphere existed mainly of carbonic oxide with little oxygen. That mixture changed very fast. Because of the composition of the atmosphere, the one-celled life forms multiplied very fast. They had no enemies. The one-celled life forms transformed large amounts of carbonic oxide into oxygen. Since there were no animals to use this oxygen the amount of oxygen in the atmosphere rose very fast, while the amount of carbonic oxide decreased. The atmosphere thus transformed radically. The one-celled life forms originated in a carbonic oxide rich atmosphere, but now it became oxygen rich and carbonic oxide poor. This gave rise to a transformation of the one-celled life forms. A number of these one-celled transformed from oxygen producers (plants) into carbonic oxide producers (animals). They preyed on the old one-celled life forms and digesting them with help of oxygen. Herewith carbonic oxide came free.

After a while a new balance was reached. When there were a lot of oxygen producers (plants), they formed a lot of food for the oxygen consumers (animals). So the number of animals could rise. Then after a while the amount of food would not be enough for the larger numbers of animals and animals would die because of lack of food. Then the number of plants could increase again and so on till now.

Some animals learned that they could also eat other animals. This made the food-circle even more complicated. More and more different species of one-celled life forms arrised. Some survived by eating plants, others by eating animals. The one-celled life forms, which were eaten, did not like that. Some began to resist. Some swam away, others learned to defend themselves or again others to hide themselves. The species that did not resist became extinct. So more spaces came free for the surviving species.

The one-celled hunters had to adapt. In the beginning, the other one-celled life forms were easy preys, but later they could escape more often from the hunters. The hunters, that did not adapt, became extinct. The ones that did adapt to their preys got more food and multiplied faster. The slow one-celled life forms (hunters and preys) became extinct. Between the surviving plants and animals a race of arms arose. Some developed a little bit different from others and survived. For example animals that could hide themselves better by adopting a protective colouring had a better chance of surviving. In the next 3 billion years, the one-celled life forms developed in plants, molluscs, insects and fishes. Some animals were specialised plant-eater, others developed in beasts of prey.

After that, the evolution progressed faster and faster. Animals and plants transformed easier and easier and became more intelligent constantly. 400 Million years ago, fishes became numerous. 300 Million years ago, the first reptiles and amphibians appeared.

I'd recommend this programme. BBC The Cell.
It's not to pretentious.

spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 10:46 am
@eurocelticyankee,
It begins--"I'm about to look back on the earliest evidence of life on earth".

Oh yeah!! "I'm about to make myself a few bucks by providing couch potatoes with some coloured, moving pictures which flatter them into thinking they are intelligent so that they are semi-comotose when the ads come on."

It's entertainment for self improver types with the usual incantations spoken in hushed reverence.

Bring on the dancing girls.

wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 11:22 am
@spendius,
Would it be morally justified to teach evolution in some limited situations, such as to male prostitutes wanting to prevent the spread of HIV?
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 11:38 am
@Ionus,
Ionus wrote:

...If I hold a book at arms length and let go, it will fall. That is a fact. Whether or not a Theory of Gravity is factual is open to interpretation but it most certainly is not a fact.

Zap post - am back in town for Thanksgiving - to tell you I finally came up with the definitive answer to your question about gaps in evolution; it's somewhat mathematical (mostly mathematical physics) which is no problem for you but may have to be explained to some of the other posters here.

First, though - what were you thinking when you wrote this quote? Unless you forgot your flight training completely you know the book will not fall if you let it go while in an airplane following a specific parabolic flight path; or otherwise in free fall, whether orbit or falling elevator.

To the point: your answer to gaps in any theoretical construct was written almost a century ago by ol' Edwin (he of the cat):
Quote:
“Instead of filling a gap by guesswork, genuine science
prefers to put up with it; and this, not so much
from conscientious scruples about telling lies, as from
the consideration that, however irksome the gap may
be, its obliteration by a fake removes the urge to seek
after a tenable answer.
'

Lots more on this link - am working my way through the equations (I know no chemistry or biology, but Farmerman does) and can answer questions (on pure math, maybe also part of fluid dynamics modeling, unless George or Thomas show up). It's absolutely ground-breaking work - you'll love it!
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1011/1011.4125v1.pdf
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 11:57 am
@wandeljw,
Look wande--male prostitutes wearing condoms is no different than TSA passenger handlers wearing rubber gloves.

All you display with your brilliant witticism is a lack of understanding of the Church's teaching on sexual matters which has no other foundation than the dignity of womanhood.

It is a measure of your misogyny, which I know you can't help, that you have persuaded women to be an artificial convenience for men, using pharmaceuticals, mechanical devices and surgical operations, with such good effect that a large number of them don't know any different or can't deal with male carnality any other way.

Prof. Greer and others have pointed out this obvious fact which is also the theme of Sir Cliff Richard's hit song Living Doll.

And you base your philosophy, if such it can be called, on the assertion that the Church is anti-woman. Which is male chauvinist piggery going round in a circle the centre of which is your own pristine and sacred manhood.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 12:03 pm
@High Seas,
Quote:
but may have to be explained to some of the other posters here.


Oh--please do HS. I'm agog with eager anticipation. We are all pals on here. There is no need to be coy.

I daresay George is not too keen to be patronisingly flanneled as easily as that. The other two will be though.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 12:05 pm
@spendius,
Cliff Richard was knighted?
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 12:06 pm
@wandeljw,
Yes--he's a national institution.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 12:15 pm
@Ionus,
Quote:
I think Evolution Theory is accurate but it ceratinly is NOT a fact.
It is theory AND a fact. Facts make up theories. We dont base scientific theories on myths do we?

HERES A LITTLE DITTY ON THE VERY SUBJECT FROM THE STEPHEN GOULD ARCHIVES

Quote:
Evolution as Fact and Theory

by Stephen Jay Gould




irtley Mather, who died last year at age ninety, was a pillar of both science and Christian religion in America and one of my dearest friends. The difference of a half-century in our ages evaporated before our common interests. The most curious thing we shared was a battle we each fought at the same age. For Kirtley had gone to Tennessee with Clarence Darrow to testify for evolution at the Scopes trial of 1925. When I think that we are enmeshed again in the same struggle for one of the best documented, most compelling and exciting concepts in all of science, I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

According to idealized principles of scientific discourse, the arousal of dormant issues should reflect fresh data that give renewed life to abandoned notions. Those outside the current debate may therefore be excused for suspecting that creationists have come up with something new, or that evolutionists have generated some serious internal trouble. But nothing has changed; the creationists have presented not a single new fact or argument. Darrow and Bryan were at least more entertaining than we lesser antagonists today. The rise of creationism is politics, pure and simple; it represents one issue (and by no means the major concern) of the resurgent evangelical right. Arguments that seemed kooky just a decade ago have reentered the mainstream.

The basic attack of modern creationists falls apart on two general counts before we even reach the supposed factual details of their assault against evolution. First, they play upon a vernacular misunderstanding of the word "theory" to convey the false impression that we evolutionists are covering up the rotten core of our edifice. Second, they misuse a popular philosophy of science to argue that they are behaving scientifically in attacking evolution. Yet the same philosophy demonstrates that their own belief is not science, and that "scientific creationism" is a meaningless and self-contradictory phrase, an example of what Orwell called "newspeak."

In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"—part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus creationists can (and do) argue: evolution is "only" a theory, and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is less than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science—that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was."

Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" does not mean "absolute certainty." The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been clear about this distinction between fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory—natural selection—to explain the mechanism of evolution. He wrote in The Descent of Man: "I had two distinct objects in view; firstly, to show that species had not been separately created, and secondly, that natural selection had been the chief agent of change. . . . Hence if I have erred in . . . having exaggerated its [natural selection's] power . . . I have at least, as I hope, done good service in aiding to overthrow the dogma of separate creations."

Thus Darwin acknowledged the provisional nature of natural selection while affirming the fact of evolution. The fruitful theoretical debate that Darwin initiated has never ceased. From the 1940s through the 1960s, Darwin's own theory of natural selection did achieve a temporary hegemony that it never enjoyed in his lifetime. But renewed debate characterizes our decade, and, while no biologist questions the importance of natural selection, many doubt its ubiquity. In particular, many evolutionists argue that substantial amounts of genetic change may not be subject to natural selection and may spread through the populations at random. Others are challenging Darwin's linking of natural selection with gradual, imperceptible change through all intermediary degrees; they are arguing that most evolutionary events may occur far more rapidly than Darwin envisioned.

Scientists regard debates on fundamental issues of theory as a sign of intellectual health and a source of excitement. Science is—and how else can I say it?—most fun when it plays with interesting ideas, examines their implications, and recognizes that old information might be explained in surprisingly new ways. Evolutionary theory is now enjoying this uncommon vigor. Yet amidst all this turmoil no biologist has been lead to doubt the fact that evolution occurred; we are debating how it happened. We are all trying to explain the same thing: the tree of evolutionary descent linking all organisms by ties of genealogy. Creationists pervert and caricature this debate by conveniently neglecting the common conviction that underlies it, and by falsely suggesting that evolutionists now doubt the very phenomenon we are struggling to understand.

Secondly, creationists claim that "the dogma of separate creations," as Darwin characterized it a century ago, is a scientific theory meriting equal time with evolution in high school biology curricula. But a popular viewpoint among philosophers of science belies this creationist argument. Philosopher Karl Popper has argued for decades that the primary criterion of science is the falsifiability of its theories. We can never prove absolutely, but we can falsify. A set of ideas that cannot, in principle, be falsified is not science.

The entire creationist program includes little more than a rhetorical attempt to falsify evolution by presenting supposed contradictions among its supporters. Their brand of creationism, they claim, is "scientific" because it follows the Popperian model in trying to demolish evolution. Yet Popper's argument must apply in both directions. One does not become a scientist by the simple act of trying to falsify a rival and truly scientific system; one has to present an alternative system that also meets Popper's criterion — it too must be falsifiable in principle.

"Scientific creationism" is a self-contradictory, nonsense phrase precisely because it cannot be falsified. I can envision observations and experiments that would disprove any evolutionary theory I know, but I cannot imagine what potential data could lead creationists to abandon their beliefs. Unbeatable systems are dogma, not science. Lest I seem harsh or rhetorical, I quote creationism's leading intellectual, Duane Gish, Ph.D. from his recent (1978) book, Evolution? The Fossils Say No! "By creation we mean the bringing into being by a supernatural Creator of the basic kinds of plants and animals by the process of sudden, or fiat, creation. We do not know how the Creator created, what process He used, for He used processes which are not now operating anywhere in the natural universe [Gish's italics]. This is why we refer to creation as special creation. We cannot discover by scientific investigations anything about the creative processes used by the Creator." Pray tell, Dr. Gish, in the light of your last sentence, what then is scientific creationism?

Our confidence that evolution occurred centers upon three general arguments. First, we have abundant, direct, observational evidence of evolution in action, from both the field and laboratory. This evidence ranges from countless experiments on change in nearly everything about fruit flies subjected to artificial selection in the laboratory to the famous populations of British moths that became black when industrial soot darkened the trees upon which the moths rest. (Moths gain protection from sharp-sighted bird predators by blending into the background.) Creationists do not deny these observations; how could they? Creationists have tightened their act. They now argue that God only created "basic kinds," and allowed for limited evolutionary meandering within them. Thus toy poodles and Great Danes come from the dog kind and moths can change color, but nature cannot convert a dog to a cat or a monkey to a man.

The second and third arguments for evolution—the case for major changes—do not involve direct observation of evolution in action. They rest upon inference, but are no less secure for that reason. Major evolutionary change requires too much time for direct observation on the scale of recorded human history. All historical sciences rest upon inference, and evolution is no different from geology, cosmology, or human history in this respect. In principle, we cannot observe processes that operated in the past. We must infer them from results that still surround us: living and fossil organisms for evolution, documents and artifacts for human history, strata and topography for geology.

The second argument—that the imperfection of nature reveals evolution—strikes many people as ironic, for they feel that evolution should be most elegantly displayed in the nearly perfect adaptation expressed by some organisms—the camber of a gull's wing, or butterflies that cannot be seen in ground litter because they mimic leaves so precisely. But perfection could be imposed by a wise creator or evolved by natural selection. Perfection covers the tracks of past history. And past history—the evidence of descent—is the mark of evolution.

Evolution lies exposed in the imperfections that record a history of descent. Why should a rat run, a bat fly, a porpoise swim, and I type this essay with structures built of the same bones unless we all inherited them from a common ancestor? An engineer, starting from scratch, could design better limbs in each case. Why should all the large native mammals of Australia be marsupials, unless they descended from a common ancestor isolated on this island continent? Marsupials are not "better," or ideally suited for Australia; many have been wiped out by placental mammals imported by man from other continents. This principle of imperfection extends to all historical sciences. When we recognize the etymology of September, October, November, and December (seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth), we know that the year once started in March, or that two additional months must have been added to an original calendar of ten months.

The third argument is more direct: transitions are often found in the fossil record. Preserved transitions are not common—and should not be, according to our understanding of evolution (see next section) but they are not entirely wanting, as creationists often claim. The lower jaw of reptiles contains several bones, that of mammals only one. The non-mammalian jawbones are reduced, step by step, in mammalian ancestors until they become tiny nubbins located at the back of the jaw. The "hammer" and "anvil" bones of the mammalian ear are descendants of these nubbins. How could such a transition be accomplished? the creationists ask. Surely a bone is either entirely in the jaw or in the ear. Yet paleontologists have discovered two transitional lineages of therapsids (the so-called mammal-like reptiles) with a double jaw joint—one composed of the old quadrate and articular bones (soon to become the hammer and anvil), the other of the squamosal and dentary bones (as in modern mammals). For that matter, what better transitional form could we expect to find than the oldest human, Australopithecus afarensis, with its apelike palate, its human upright stance, and a cranial capacity larger than any ape’s of the same body size but a full 1,000 cubic centimeters below ours? If God made each of the half-dozen human species discovered in ancient rocks, why did he create in an unbroken temporal sequence of progressively more modern features—increasing cranial capacity, reduced face and teeth, larger body size? Did he create to mimic evolution and test our faith thereby?

Faced with these facts of evolution and the philosophical bankruptcy of their own position, creationists rely upon distortion and innuendo to buttress their rhetorical claim. If I sound sharp or bitter, indeed I am—for I have become a major target of these practices.

I count myself among the evolutionists who argue for a jerky, or episodic, rather than a smoothly gradual, pace of change. In 1972 my colleague Niles Eldredge and I developed the theory of punctuated equilibrium. We argued that two outstanding facts of the fossil record—geologically "sudden" origin of new species and failure to change thereafter (stasis)—reflect the predictions of evolutionary theory, not the imperfections of the fossil record. In most theories, small isolated populations are the source of new species, and the process of speciation takes thousands or tens of thousands of years. This amount of time, so long when measured against our lives, is a geological microsecond. It represents much less than 1 per cent of the average life-span for a fossil invertebrate species—more than ten million years. Large, widespread, and well established species, on the other hand, are not expected to change very much. We believe that the inertia of large populations explains the stasis of most fossil species over millions of years.

We proposed the theory of punctuated equilibrium largely to provide a different explanation for pervasive trends in the fossil record. Trends, we argued, cannot be attributed to gradual transformation within lineages, but must arise from the different success of certain kinds of species. A trend, we argued, is more like climbing a flight of stairs (punctuated and stasis) than rolling up an inclined plane.

Since we proposed punctuated equilibria to explain trends, it is infuriating to be quoted again and again by creationists—whether through design or stupidity, I do not know—as admitting that the fossil record includes no transitional forms. Transitional forms are generally lacking at the species level, but they are abundant between larger groups. Yet a pamphlet entitled "Harvard Scientists Agree Evolution Is a Hoax" states: "The facts of punctuated equilibrium which Gould and Eldredge…are forcing Darwinists to swallow fit the picture that Bryan insisted on, and which God has revealed to us in the Bible."

Continuing the distortion, several creationists have equated the theory of punctuated equilibrium with a caricature of the beliefs of Richard Goldschmidt, a great early geneticist. Goldschmidt argued, in a famous book published in 1940, that new groups can arise all at once through major mutations. He referred to these suddenly transformed creatures as "hopeful monsters." (I am attracted to some aspects of the non-caricatured version, but Goldschmidt's theory still has nothing to do with punctuated equilibrium—see essays in section 3 and my explicit essay on Goldschmidt in The Pandas Thumb.) Creationist Luther Sunderland talks of the "punctuated equilibrium hopeful monster theory" and tells his hopeful readers that "it amounts to tacit admission that anti-evolutionists are correct in asserting there is no fossil evidence supporting the theory that all life is connected to a common ancestor." Duane Gish writes, "According to Goldschmidt, and now apparently according to Gould, a reptile laid an egg from which the first bird, feathers and all, was produced." Any evolutionists who believed such nonsense would rightly be laughed off the intellectual stage; yet the only theory that could ever envision such a scenario for the origin of birds is creationism—with God acting in the egg.

I am both angry at and amused by the creationists; but mostly I am deeply sad. Sad for many reasons. Sad because so many people who respond to creationist appeals are troubled for the right reason, but venting their anger at the wrong target. It is true that scientists have often been dogmatic and elitist. It is true that we have often allowed the white-coated, advertising image to represent us—"Scientists say that Brand X cures bunions ten times faster than…" We have not fought it adequately because we derive benefits from appearing as a new priesthood. It is also true that faceless and bureaucratic state power intrudes more and more into our lives and removes choices that should belong to individuals and communities. I can understand that school curricula, imposed from above and without local input, might be seen as one more insult on all these grounds. But the culprit is not, and cannot be, evolution or any other fact of the natural world. Identify and fight our legitimate enemies by all means, but we are not among them.

I am sad because the practical result of this brouhaha will not be expanded coverage to include creationism (that would also make me sad), but the reduction or excision of evolution from high school curricula. Evolution is one of the half dozen "great ideas" developed by science. It speaks to the profound issues of genealogy that fascinate all of us—the "roots" phenomenon writ large. Where did we come from? Where did life arise? How did it develop? How are organisms related? It forces us to think, ponder, and wonder. Shall we deprive millions of this knowledge and once again teach biology as a set of dull and unconnected facts, without the thread that weaves diverse material into a supple unity?

But most of all I am saddened by a trend I am just beginning to discern among my colleagues. I sense that some now wish to mute the healthy debate about theory that has brought new life to evolutionary biology. It provides grist for creationist mills, they say, even if only by distortion. Perhaps we should lie low and rally around the flag of strict Darwinism, at least for the moment—a kind of old-time religion on our part.

But we should borrow another metaphor and recognize that we too have to tread a straight and narrow path, surrounded by roads to perdition. For if we ever begin to suppress our search to understand nature, to quench our own intellectual excitement in a misguided effort to present a united front where it does not and should not exist, then we are truly lost.



[ Stephen Jay Gould, "Evolution as Fact and Theory," Discover 2 (May 1981): 34-37; Reprinted here from Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes, New York: W. W. Norton & Company, 1994, pp. 253-262. ]

High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 12:16 pm
@failures art,
failures art wrote:

Meanwhile in science land, biologists are completely unaware that English pub hicks disapprove of their research.

Add the mathematicians to your list. I'd also be interested in your opinion on the article I just linked in my post to Ionus (this page).
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 12:18 pm
@farmerman,
The very man I was looking for - did you get a chance to look at article I linked? Should save you considerable time in organizing layout of your book:
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/arxiv/pdf/1011/1011.4125v1.pdf
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 12:22 pm
@farmerman,
In case you dont want to read the whole thing (Gould had a habit of sounding like spendi, except without the spendi run on sentences), heres the important line from the "FAct and Theory" thing

Quote:
Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts


prfect sig line for you. If you disagree, contact STephen Gould, I however cannot arrange the meeting.
0 Replies
 
eurocelticyankee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 12:49 pm
@spendius,
Besides expressing contempt for everything others have to say, what else have you got.
What do you bring to the table.
Negativity is not an argument in itself.
Besides pompous rhetoric, WHAT have YOU got.
Clown.
eurocelticyankee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 01:00 pm
I agree with the Farmerman, evolution is theory and fact, there are various theories on how the first cell formed and there is more to be learned, as some put it, gaps to be filled. But this does not negate the fact that evolution is fact, there can be no doubts, the evidence is there for all to see.
All with an open mind, that is.
0 Replies
 
High Seas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 01:26 pm
@eurocelticyankee,
Give our resident clown a break. Read this from Heinrich Heine - starting in French (quoting Napoleon) in the original text, rest is from a translation:
Quote:
Du sublime au ridicule il n'y a qu'un pas...." life is so fatally serious that it would be unbearable without such a connection between the pathetic and the comic. … after the departure of the heroes come the clowns.”
eurocelticyankee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 01:37 pm
@High Seas,
Yes, off course your right.
I don't like being nasty, it's not my nature.
But that said, he comes across as a mean spirited, arrogant and contemptuous human being with no regard for the opinion of others.
Oops there I go again.
eurocelticyankee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 02:05 pm
@eurocelticyankee,
I'm going bringing the GSP for a walk, it's a nice night.


Slan leat.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 02:39 pm
@High Seas,
Ive printed it out and Ill read it tonite
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 22 Nov, 2010 03:15 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
We dont base scientific theories on myths do we?


Yes we do. Scientific theories of social organisation which are much too complex for your geology training and they are not to everybody's liking.

Marx's class war was a myth. And that religion is an opiate. And the dictatorship of the proletariat. And the permanent monogamous relation. And the divine right of kings. And human sacrifice. And turning the other cheek. And power growing out of the barrel of a gun. And the Saturnalia. And the survival of the fittest. And the predatory nature of NFL team's franchise logo. And ladies fashions. The afterlife experience.

There are probably thousands of scientific theories of social organisations and they are all myths. Evolution tests the best myths. Our's hit the Jackpot. That science will get us out of the **** of it is a serious myth. That the bankers caused the financial crisis is a myth. And economics is science. The land of the free is one too. Freud's unconscious is a myth. And psychology is a science. The master race. Reincarnation. (I don't fancy that with my track record.)

I could sit here all night typing out bloody myths. Having a wife's a myth. Or a dog.

We know how to get the right number of Hershey bars out of a mechanical operation but how do we get the right number of babies out of the delivery tube. What is the right number of babies? Imagine something going haywire and all 60 million American women (16-46 say) produce a baby next year. Or none. Science thinks from the extremes inwards not from the inwards outwards. There's subjective complacency lying in wait in the inwards to trap the unwary. A sudden leap or decline sufficient to cause head scratching in Washington. Just a doubling as a result of a Royal heir arriving accompanied by a certain style of media coverage organised by the Pram Manufacturers and Allied Trades Federation.

That's serious science fm. Which layer of solidified **** is on top of which and how it's buckling with the strains of tectonic shoving and pushing and looked at through a somewhat bigger device than that a quality control inspector in a chocolate gateaux Christmas Presentation cake factory would use to see if the layers meet the minimum specifications the design agreed after extensive market research requires. (He takes the rest home to sell at swap meets on the day of rest--his wife disguises the hole with the left-overs from the test core.) Giving the layers of **** fancy names and laying figures on them which are incomprehensible to the human mind, "unimaginable" Darwin called them as well, and making coloured wall charts showing that oil collects above non porous valleys in one of the layers is not real science. It's science making somebody want to get that oily black gunk onto the surface after the Supreme Intelligence had fixed it that we didn't need to bother about it. You explain how that was done mate. Here you are doing it (rtd.) and it isn't that long since nobody would ever have thought that **** like that on the surface was anything other than a pisser.

I think anybody who thinks the matter over reasonably carefully would say that who we think we are is a myth.

Have you ever thought if your name was Bob or Harry or Mustapha. Or if you were The Right Honourable Sir C**ntly Boniface Trumpington KVCO. KGLG. How those might affect your sense of self.

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