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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 07:00 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

Quote:
Evolution is not meant to address the nature and meaning of life.


It may not be meant to but it does do. That is the reason why Darwin agonized and delayed publication for so long and only did so when others showed signs of stealing his thunder. In the debate on here the anti-IDers do mean to use evolution to address the nature and meaning of life.

BP's drilling was not meant to pollute the Gulf but it has done.

Darwin isn't here to defend himself, and I thought only silly sods attack those who can't defend themselves.

Evolution had a social impact, but it doesn't make it a social theory. Joseph Lister's had a social impact too.

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spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 07:04 am
@failures art,
I wasn't attacking Darwin. I was merely stating known facts as reported by Desmond and Moore in their monumental biography of the randy old Malthusian goat.
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 07:13 am
@spendius,
If you believe your own bullshit, I'm worried spendi.

Keep religious material in classrooms that teach religious myths. It's rather simple. I'm sorry that others are unwilling to accommodate to your envy.

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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 07:49 am
Quote:
COMER v. SCOTT

CHRISTINA CASTILLO COMER, Plaintiff-Appellant,
v.
ROBERT SCOTT, Commissioner, Texas Education Agency, in his official capacity; TEXAS EDUCATION AGENCY, Defendants-Appellees.

No. 09-50401.

United States Court of Appeals, Fifth Circuit.

Filed: July 2, 2010.

Before: BENAVIDES, STEWART, and SOUTHWICK, Circuit Judges.

FORTUNATO P. BENAVIDES, Circuit Judge.

In the present case, this Court is presented with the question of whether the Texas Education Agency's ("TEA") neutrality policy constitutes an establishment of religion, in violation of the First Amendment's Establishment Clause. Because we find no evidence to support the conclusion that the principal or primary effect of TEA's policy is one that either advances or inhibits religion, we conclude that the policy does not violate the Establishment Clause. As such, we affirm the decision of the district court.

FACTS AND PROCEDURAL BACKGROUND
This case arises out of TEA's decision to terminate Plaintiff Christina Castillo Comer ("Comer") after she violated TEA's neutrality policy— a policy requiring staff to remain neutral and refrain from expressing any opinions on any curricular matter subject to the Texas State Board of Education's ("Board") jurisdiction.

The Board and TEA are independent state actors, with distinct but overlapping responsibilities for administering public education in Texas. The Board is statutorily tasked with "establish[ing] curriculum and graduation requirements" and determining which textbooks shall be purchased by the state for school use. Tex. Educ. Code §§ 7.102(c)(4), 31.022, 31.023. TEA is led by the Commissioner of Education (in this case, Defendant Robert Scott), who is appointed by the Governor subject to Senate confirmation. Id. §§ 7.051, .055.

Because the Board has no staff of its own, the Commissioner provides TEA staff that assist the Board with the administrative, procedural, and clerical tasks necessary to develop the curriculum and specific requirements for graduation. Id. §§ 7.055(b)(2)-(3), (5). TEA's role during the curriculum development process is to facilitate the curriculum review meetings, provide resources for the Board's advisors, and to accurately draft and neutrally compile all of the recommendations to the Board and the Board's resulting decisions.

As a result of the function TEA serves in relation to the Board, TEA staff are "directed not to advocate a particular position on [curriculum] issues under deliberation, or participate in any way that could compromise the agency's ability to fairly and accurately implement the policy choices made by the Board." Thus the record reflects, and Comer does not dispute, that TEA maintains a "neutrality policy." In accordance with this neutrality policy, TEA staff can describe the contents of Board policy to others in neutral terms, if their jobs call for it, but they may not express opinions on the wisdom of any particular policy option in their capacity as TEA employees. The record also reflects that the neutrality policy has been enforced across a variety of different curriculum issues subject to decision by the Board.

Comer was employed as TEA's Director of Science for the Curriculum Division from May 1998 to November 7, 2007. As a part of her duties as Director of Science, Comer directed the kindergarten through twelfth grade science program in Texas public schools. More specifically, Comer was charged with providing "non-regulatory guidance" concerning the state curriculum and "support and guidance" regarding the Board's Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills ("TEKS") compliance. On October 26, 2007, Comer received an email from Glenn Branch ("Branch email"), addressed to her TEA account, advising her about an upcoming event in Austin entitled "Inside Creationism's Trojan Horse." The email explained that the featured speaker would give a presentation critical of teaching creationism in public schools. Comer responded to the email by promising to "help get the word out," and on that same day, Comer forwarded the Branch email from her TEA email account to thirty-six science teachers in the Austin area and leaders of science teacher organizations.

Comer's direct supervisor, Monica Martinez, determined that forwarding the Branch email violated TEA's neutrality policy, in addition to a directive Martinez had previously issued to Comer based on her past misconduct. Martinez's previous directive to Comer had prohibited Comer from communicating with anyone outside TEA in any way that could imply endorsement of a position on any curriculum issue that may be considered by the Board.[ 1 ] Thus, on November 7, 2007, in response to Comer's act of forwarding the Branch email, Martinez drafted a memorandum recommending Comer's termination. After receiving this memorandum, Comer was told to "resign or be fired." The next day she resigned.

On June 30, 2008, Comer filed a complaint for declaratory and injunctive relief in the United States District Court, Western District of Texas, asserting two claims under the First Amendment's Establishment Clause as well as one claim under the Fourteenth Amendment's Due Process Clause. In her complaint, Comer averred that TEA's termination of her employment violated her Due Process rights. Additionally, she asserted that TEA's neutrality policy violates the Establishment Clause because it has the "effect of endorsing religion." According to Comer, terminating her employment deprived her of her right to carry out her duties free of a state policy that has the effect of promoting religion.

Both sides filed motions for summary judgment. The district court heard oral argument on the motions on December 17, 2008, and on March 31, 2009, the court issued its order and judgment dismissing all of Comer's claims. Specifically as to Comer's Establishment Clause claims, the district court found that "Comer provide[d] no summary-judgment proof raising an issue of material fact regarding whether [TEA's] neutrality policy has a primary effect of advancing or endorsing religion."

Comer timely filed her notice of appeal.[ 2 ]

STANDARD OF REVIEW
"We review a grant of summary judgment de novo, applying the same legal standard as the district court." Croft v. Governor of Tex., 562 F.3d 735, 742 (5th Cir. 2009) (internal quotations omitted). Summary judgment should be rendered if the record demonstrates that "there is no genuine issue as to any material fact and that the movant is entitled to judgment as a matter of law." Fed. R. Civ. P. 56(c). "An issue is material if its resolution could affect the outcome of the action." Daniels v. City of Arlington, Tex., 246 F.3d 500, 502 (5th Cir. 2001). "In deciding whether a fact issue has been created, the court must view the facts and the inferences to be drawn therefrom in the light most favorable to the nonmoving party." Id.

ANALYSIS
The First Amendment's Establishment Clause provides: "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . . ." "As is plain from its text, the First Amendment was adopted to curtail the power of Congress to interfere with the individual's freedom to believe, to worship, and to express him self in accordance with the dictates of his own conscience." Wallace v. Jaffree, 472 U.S. 38, 49 (1985).[ 3 ] Accordingly, the First Amendment's Establishment Clause dictates that:

Government in our democracy, state and national, must be neutral in matters of religious theory, doctrine, and practice. It may not be hostile to any religion or to the advocacy of noreligion; and it may not aid, foster, or promote one religion or religious theory against another or even against the militant opposite. The First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion.
Epperson v. State of Ark., 393 U.S. 97, 103-04 (1968).

With this constitutional orientation in mind, we also note the particular context in which Comer's appeal arises. "The Court's inquiry is shaped by the educational context in which it arises: `First Amendment rights must be analyzed in light of the special characteristics of the school environment.'" Christian Legal Soc. Chapter of the Univ. of Ca., Hastings Coll. of the Law v. Martinez, __ S.Ct. __, 2010 WL 2555187, *3 (Jun. 28, 2010) (quoting Widmar v. Vincent, 454 U.S. 263, 268 n.5 (1981)). The Supreme Court has recognized that although state schools must abide by the constitutional restraints imposed by the First Amendment, "[s]tates and local school boards are generally afforded considerable discretion in operating public schools." Edwards v. Aguillard, 482 U.S. 578, 583 (1987). Further, this Court has previously held that "[s]tates and their duly authorized boards of education have the right to prescribe the academic curricula of their public school systems." Freiler v. Tangipahoa Parish Bd. of Educ., 185 F.3d 337, 342 (5th Cir. 1999). Accordingly, the Supreme Court has "cautioned courts to resist `substitut[ing] their own notions of sound educational policy for those of school authorities,' for judges lack the on-the-ground expertise and experience of school administrators.'" Martinez, 2010 WL 2555187 at *3 (quoting Bd. of Ed. of Hendrick Hudson Cent. Sch. Dist., Westchester City. v. Rowley, 458 U.S. 176, 206 (1982)).

The Supreme Court established a general framework for analyzing Establishment Clause challenges in Lemon v. Kurtzman, 403 U.S. 602 (1971). To survive an Establishment Clause challenge, the statute or policy must survive all three of Lemon's prongs: (1) "the statute must have a secular legislative purpose;" (2) "its principal or primary effect must be one that neither advances nor inhibits religion;" and (3) "the statute must not foster an excessive government entanglement with religion." Id. at 612-13.

Before the district court and now on appeal, Comer has focused her argument exclusively on Lemon's second prong.[ 4 ] That is, Comer contends that TEA's neutrality policy's principal and/or primary effect is to advance and/or endorse religion. Comer bases her argument largely on the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards v. Aguillard, where the Court held that a Louisiana law proscribing the teaching of evolution as part of the public school curriculum, unless accompanied by a lesson on creationism, violated the Establishment Clause. See 482 U.S. at 596-97. By relying on the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards, Comer attempts to equate TEA's neutrality policy with the Louisiana law at issue in Edwards, arguing that both are unconstitutionally "neutral" and "balanced" in their treatment of evolution and creationism in the classrooms of public schools. According to Comer, the Supreme Court has held that neutrally requiring creationism to be taught with evolution in public schools is unconstitutional, and therefore, TEA's neutrality policy prohibiting her from speaking out against creationism must be in contravention of the Supreme Court's decision in Edwards. Thus, argues Comer, the neutrality policy considers creationism to be a legitimate subject matter for the Board to consider in the curriculum, and consequently, the policy constitutes an establishment of religion in violation of her rights under the First Amendment.[ 5 ]

Comer's aforementioned interpretation and application of Edwards' precedent fails for two reasons. First, Comer exclusively argues that TEA's neutrality policy violates Lemon's second prong. The Supreme Court in Edwards, however, only found Louisiana's law to be in violation of Lemon's first prong, and consequently, Edwards's analysis is inapposite to this case. Second, when we do consider the argument Comer has raised on appeal—specifically, that TEA's neutrality policy violates Lemon's second prong—we find no evidence in the record to indicate that the neutrality policy's "principal or primary effect" is to advance religion.

In Edwards, the Supreme Court considered only whether Louisiana's law violated the first prong of the Lemon test, noting that "[t]he purpose prong of the Lemon test asks whether government's actual purpose is to endorse or disapprove of religion." Edwards, 482 U.S. at 585 (quotation marks and citation omitted). Thus, the Supreme Court reasoned that "[a] governmental intention to promote religion is clear when the State enacts a law to serve a religious purpose." Id. In considering the challenged law, the Edwards Court noted that the State "identified no clear secular purpose for the Louisiana Act." Id. Consequently, the Supreme Court's extensive review of the legislative history led the Court to conclude that the Louisiana law served the religious "purpose of discrediting evolution by counterbalancing its teaching at every turn with the teaching of creationism." Id. at 589 (quotation marks and citation omitted). Because the Edwards Court concluded that the purpose of the law was to promote religion, the Court did not consider the second and third prongs of Lemon. See id. at 585 ("If the law was enacted for the purpose of endorsing religion, no consideration of the second or third criteria of Lemon is necessary.") (internal brackets, quotation marks, and citation omitted).

Yet Comer does not argue that the purpose behind TEA's creation of the neutrality policy was to promote religion.[ 6 ] And despite Comer's assertions otherwise, we do not read Edwards as declaring that the State's balanced and neutral treatment of religion will always violate the First Amendment. Cf. Epperson, 393 U.S. at 104 ("The First Amendment mandates governmental neutrality between religion and religion, and between religion and nonreligion."). Instead, we read Edwards as declaring that any law labeled as "neutral" or "balanced" violates the Establishment Clause if it was "enact[ed] . . . to serve a religious purpose." Edwards, 482 U.S. at 585.

Comer, however, argues only that the TEA policy has the "principal or primary effect" of advancing religion. The purpose behind a law or statute's enactment is not synonymous with its effect. Consequently, Comer's attempt to equate purpose with effect fails, and we decline to conflate Lemon's first prong with the second.

Furthermore, we do not find ourselves persuaded by Comer's arguments that TEA's policy fails under Lemon's second prong. " Lemon's second prong asks whether, irrespective of [the policy's] actual purpose, the practice under review in fact conveys a message of endorsement or disapproval." Freiler, 185 F.3d at 346. That is, "a government practice may not aid one religion, aid all religions, or favor one religion over another." Id.; cf. Ingebretsen ex rel. Ingebretsen v. Jackson Pub. Sch. Dist., 88 F.3d 274, 279 (5th Cir. 1996) (reasoning that a "statute's effect is to advance religion [when]. . . it gives a preferential, exceptional benefit to religion that it does not extend to anything else."). "Nonetheless, where the benefit to religion or to a church is no more than indirect, remote, or incidental, the Supreme Court has advised that `no realistic danger [exists] that the community would think that the [contested government practice] was endorsing religion or any particular creed.'" Freiler, 185 F.3d at 346 (quoting Lamb's Chapel v. Ctr. Moriches Union Free Sch. Dist., 508 U.S. 384, 395 (1993)).

Upon review of the record and applicable law, we cannot conclude that TEA's neutrality policy has the "primary effect" of advancing religion. The fact that Comer and other TEA employees cannot speak out for or against possible subjects to be included in the curriculum—whether the considered subjects relate to the study of mathematics, Islamic art, creationism, chemistry, or the history of the Christian Crusades—their silence does not primarily advance religion, but rather, serves to preserve TEA's administrative role in facilitating the curriculum review process for the Board. That is, we have before us no evidence that ordinary Texas citizens look to TEA employees for authoritative statements on what the fifteen elected Board members might or may not one day endorse. Common sense dictates that Texas citizens would look to the fifteen Board members they elected, and not the TEA staff hired to work for the Board. And appropriately so, since TEA's sole role during the curriculum development process is to facilitate the curriculum review meetings, provide resources for the Board's advisors, and accurately draft and neutrally compile all of the recommendations to the Board and the Board's resulting decisions.

Thus, we find it hard to imagine circumstances in which a TEA employee's inability to publicly speak out for or against a potential subject for the Texas curriculum would be construed or perceived as the State's endorsement of a particular religion. Comer has presented no evidence that disputes the district court's conclusion in this regard, and accordingly, we find "no realistic danger . . . that the community would think that [TEA's neutrality policy] . . . s endorsing religion or any particular creed." Freiler, 185 F.3d at 346. We find that TEA's neutrality policy does not violate Lemon's second prong.[ 7 ]

CONCLUSION
For the aforementioned reasons, we conclude that TEA's neutrality policy does not violate the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment. Accordingly, the decision of the district court is AFFIRMED.
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 07:55 am
@failures art,
What bullshit. Specify please. I'm unable to deal with things that only exist in your mind.

It's the people of Texas and Louisiana and other places whose rights I am defending to decide what their kids are exposed to. What's your objection?

What others? The ones on here?? They are of no account. There are 25 million people in Texas with a GP of $1.2 trillion and a lot of it in the field of advanced science. Are you saying that these henpecked wimps on this thread who won't answer any questions are qualified to tell Texas what to do and impose it from behind walls where no free elections are held. Does Texas not know what is good for it?

I've never said one thing in six years about teaching any damn thing at all. Why don't you catch up on the thread or else **** off. Bottom of the football league table is your claim to fame. I won last season's Pick-Um competition against 29 Americans. Envy my arse.

I'm the only bloody scientist on the thread and it damn well shows.

And you needn't worry either. Not on my account.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 08:01 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Accordingly, the decision of the district court is AFFIRMED.


There you go then. A knock back for anti-IDers. In court. Is that decision "bullshit" too?
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 08:33 am
@wandeljw,
That seems like the correct verdict in this case. Christina Comer should have been more careful not to violate the terms of her employment, even if her intentions were to promote the integrity of science (which wasn't part of her job apparently).
failures art
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 09:06 am
@spendius,
It's simple spendi. Leave creationism in a theology class. I care not what parents teach their children. I don't even care if TX wants to add a theology course to their core curriculum. I do care about ID being taught as science.

There is where your envy is to be found. Perhaps you always wanted to be a scientist.

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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 09:17 am
@rosborne979,
If, by keeping silent on a lwa that is clearly unconstitutional in its intent, I feel she will be vindicated down the rod. Remember all these courts are in Texas and Louisiana
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 09:26 am
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
If, by keeping silent on a lwa that is clearly unconstitutional in its intent, I feel she will be vindicated down the rod.

Which law do you feel is unconstitutional in it's intent?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 10:06 am
@failures art,
Quote:
It's simple spendi.


It's not simple and only a fool would think it is. If it was simple none of us would be here.

Quote:
Leave creationism in a theology class.


It doesn't belong in any class unless the voters approve of it being. And neither does anything else unless the voters accept it. That is why there are elected members of school boards and ones appointed by elected govenors. If you want national curricula get campaigning for it instead of piss-balling about with semantic nonsense. What should be in a theology class and can it be contradictory to what is taught in other classes in the same school or area? Will you answer that please?

Quote:
I care not what parents teach their children.


Maybe you should do.

Quote:
I do care about ID being taught as science.


I never said it should be. The subject is the teaching of evolution. Have you an argument against those, and they are many, who think the teaching of evolution is dangerous? Or are you like fm who does not care whether it is dangerous or not, or potentially dangerous in the hands of some teachers, and wishes to proceed with it nontheless. On his say so.

I am a scientist. Whether you believe me or not is not a matter I am going to lose any sleep over. A few minutes study of the posts of our claque of anti-IDers will quickly reveal to you than there is not one ounce of a scientific sensibility in the lot of them and if you can't see that then you can be safely added to the scales without any discernable shift in the pointer.

I know what your hidden agenda is and that of the others of the same ilk. You need have no illusions about that.

spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 10:09 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Remember all these courts are in Texas and Louisiana.


As is most of the crude oil on their shores which was destined to feed the insatiable maws of the cities from which your agenda derives.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 11:54 am
@rosborne979,
I believe that Lemon has been incorrectly applied via Engelbrutson. The INTENT of keeping her quiet was clearly because of religious belief thhat EQUATES the two concepts as coeequal scientofc or religious beliefs. This is not the case.

She, also, is being deprived of her own civil rights by virtue of being ateacher. I can understand this in the military chain of command, but I am unaware of any similar valid statutes that command a teacxher to stay quiet on a particular area that is under cultural scrutiny elsewhere.

1Either the law is in itself total bullshit or

2Its been misinterpreted based on local religious standards.


I was fully of your belief earlier Ros. (I am not hiding behind the nfact and my several past posts were actually fairly complete in my thinking (then)) Ive since changed my mind upon rethinking the issue in terms of Comer's civil rights.

A priest can get into politics yet a teacher cannot voice her opinion even if it was a mere transmittal of an e-mail critical of ID or Creationism based upon Barbara Forrests book/

Could she have merely passed an e-mail that merely announced that Barbara Forrest was going to speak (without mentioning her "Trojan Horse Book"?).

I believe that the Lemon "Test" was incorrectly interpreted by the court of Appeal.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 12:01 pm
@farmerman,
Here is the paragraph that describes what led to this:
Quote:
Comer was employed as TEA's Director of Science for the Curriculum Division from May 1998 to November 7, 2007. As a part of her duties as Director of Science, Comer directed the kindergarten through twelfth grade science program in Texas public schools. More specifically, Comer was charged with providing "non-regulatory guidance" concerning the state curriculum and "support and guidance" regarding the Board's Texas Essential Knowledge and Skills ("TEKS") compliance. On October 26, 2007, Comer received an email from Glenn Branch ("Branch email"), addressed to her TEA account, advising her about an upcoming event in Austin entitled "Inside Creationism's Trojan Horse." The email explained that the featured speaker would give a presentation critical of teaching creationism in public schools. Comer responded to the email by promising to "help get the word out," and on that same day, Comer forwarded the Branch email from her TEA email account to thirty-six science teachers in the Austin area and leaders of science teacher organizations.

Comer's direct supervisor, Monica Martinez, determined that forwarding the Branch email violated TEA's neutrality policy, in addition to a directive Martinez had previously issued to Comer based on her past misconduct. Martinez's previous directive to Comer had prohibited Comer from communicating with anyone outside TEA in any way that could imply endorsement of a position on any curriculum issue that may be considered by the Board.[ 1 ] Thus, on November 7, 2007, in response to Comer's act of forwarding the Branch email, Martinez drafted a memorandum recommending Comer's termination. After receiving this memorandum, Comer was told to "resign or be fired." The next day she resigned.

If I understand it right, she was specifically prohibited from promoting any non-neutral viewpoint, and that was apparently tied in with "past misconduct", which doesn't seem to be detailed.

farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 12:03 pm
@rosborne979,
Ive read it and remember , its a detail written BY the court of appeals. Do you think they would question their own logic?
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 12:10 pm
@farmerman,
fm just believes which court he wants to believe. It's like Animal Farm around here.

Quote:
I was fully of your belief earlier Ros. (I am not hiding behind the nfact and my several past posts were actually fairly complete in my thinking (then)) Ive since changed my mind upon rethinking the issue in terms of Comer's civil rights.


And we're on the wobbly deck. A few more rethinks and he might well come back to "fully" on board with ros's belief.

I hope fm revised his lesson notes and sent e-mails to his students from before the watershed advising them that his previous beliefs are now inoperative and advising them of the new ones.

Everybody knows that all law is bullshit don't they. There's no legal systems in Origins. Or in the world it so superficially describes.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 02:25 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
Ive read it and remember , its a detail written BY the court of appeals. Do you think they would question their own logic?

I just think that this section: "Martinez's previous directive to Comer had prohibited Comer from communicating with anyone outside TEA in any way that could imply endorsement of a position on any curriculum issue that may be considered by the Board.", pretty much sealed the deal for Comer.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 02:29 pm
@rosborne979,
Does it occur to us that this is one of the very few areas in which teachers are NOT allowed a personal conviction.(And one that is defined by the very science curriculum she controla).
Its a nasty bit of shaftery I say.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Jul, 2010 05:22 pm
@farmerman,
I think fm that the second largest state with 24.7 million inhabitants and a GDP of over $1,2 trillion can be sure to have intellectuals and scientific advisors available to its counsels who are so far ahead of you that you might as well be a ******* dog for all the notice they will take of anything you say.

I daresay that if Ms Comer is anything like the ceiling busting women I have become entangled with from time to time she will will have a whole slew of personal convictions all of which, from a scientific point of view, would be not only perfectly understandable but entirely inappropriate in school classrooms.

Your caricature stereotyping of the human condition is indecent. You obviously think we are all cardboard cut-outs which you can move about your board game to satisfy whatever whims your consciousness happens to be paying attention to at any particular moment none of which are necessarily connected up except possibly accidentally.

Unified field theories are outside of your competence.


0 Replies
 
failures art
 
  2  
Reply Tue 6 Jul, 2010 08:27 am
@spendius,
spendius wrote:

It's not simple and only a fool would think it is. If it was simple none of us would be here.

It is simple spendi. Your convolution of the topic means a not to real minds that matter. It is a false stalemate perpetuated by ignorant mass of religious idiots. The idea is to promote a false scientific controversy, nothing more.

spendius wrote:

What should be in a theology class and can it be contradictory to what is taught in other classes in the same school or area? Will you answer that please?

A theology class should teach a student about various world religions and how they came to be. The class should talk about the influence of religion on language and culture.

Can it contradict what other classes say? Sure. Sophomore English classes in High School teach Greek and Roman mythology already. It provides a very different account of history that is contradictory. It's not being sold as truth.

spendius wrote:

Have you an argument against those, and they are many, who think the teaching of evolution is dangerous?

Yes. The teaching of evolution has not created any sort of threat, and so treating it as dangerous is irrational. For that matter, the concept of idea-threats is a specious notion.

spendius wrote:

I am a scientist. Whether you believe me or not is not a matter I am going to lose any sleep over.

You're not a scientist, and I'm sure you'll sleep just fine. I don't give a damn what you'd like to badge yourself with. Your arguments have shown no real scientific understanding of evolution.

If you are a scientist, you're **** at it.

spendius wrote:

A few minutes study of the posts of our claque of anti-IDers will quickly reveal to you than there is not one ounce of a scientific sensibility in the lot of them and if you can't see that then you can be safely added to the scales without any discernable shift in the pointer.

What an apt metaphor, a scale in which you can't tip.

spendius wrote:

I know what your hidden agenda is and that of the others of the same ilk. You need have no illusions about that.

My agenda is not hidden. It is, and will always be, to have science taught in the science classroom. In the case of evolution, it belongs, and ID does not.

A
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