Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

@wandeljw,

wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
Creationism is 'bad science,' 'bad theology,' speaker says
(By Malea Hargett, Editor, Arkansas Catholic, June 26, 2010 issue)

Creationism is a religious theory and should not be taught as science, Dr. Pauline Viviano told 110 participants during the Bible Institute at St. John Center in Little Rock June 18-20.

She's making a lot of the same observations that have been made before. They are all true of course, but there doesn't seem to be anything new in Viviano's speech.

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I think that the significant point here, Roswell, is that this is a religious figure saying all of this in a religious context.

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@Setanta,

Setanta wrote:

I think that the significant point here, Roswell, is that this is a religious figure saying all of this in a religious context.

That is rather refreshing to see. And the more of it the better. But hasn't the Vatican been saying most of those things for a while now?

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I don't think that, among the many, many valid criticisms of the Catholic Church as an institution, opposition to a theory of evolution is in that number. They've had a realistic attitude toward it all along, at least in the 20th century.

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@xris,

I think you mean conditioning or operant conditioning. Brain washing means the removal of previous conditioning usually by coercion. Possibly you mean indoctrinated.

What would you suggest doing with children? Is conditioning avoidable. Would it be in the child's interest to not be conditioned to the values of the culture it belongs to.

When it comes to the socialisation of millions of kids in modern societies I think loose language and platitudes are irresponsible. It isn't a subject to be dealt with with throwaway phrases however high sounding they might be. And neither is a complex matter like 50 million minds developing from moment to moment over many years and confronted by inputs from other sources the nature of which gives them a distinct advantage over teachers in classrooms and not subjected to the scrutiny of local elected people.

Did you read the article I posted by Dr Le Fanu?

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@spendius,

No, the brainwashing technique required the implant of false information to subvert and confuse the prisoner. If the conditioning of children was the indoctrination of the Nazis principles, would you say that was acceptable?It was a community that required its children socialise and its leaders demanded the dogmatic attention to its beliefs. I must judge the actions and the beliefs of those who introduce their children to these unscientific and dogmatic beliefs. Give them your views and explain your beliefs but dont give them false information, as if it was proven.

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@rosborne979,

Quote:

but there doesn't seem to be anything new in Viviano's speech.

There not much that is new or interesting in the vast bulk of wande's paste jobs.

They are all trivial, basically off topic, concerned with incidents, badly written and repetitive. I think wande reacts to the word "evolution" like one of Pavlov's dogs reacted to a bell.

The quote I gave above from Dr Le Fanu, which I don't expect many of you could read properly, offered a serious challenge to the dogmatism of Darwinists. Religious people are not the only ones who take a dogmatic approach.

I see that no anti-IDer on here has declared that their objective is to render churches and religion non-existent. I declared I was opposed to that. It seems like our resident anti-IDers are a bit faint-hearted. It is no use them pretending that they haven't lost the argument if they are unable to declare for the abolition of churches because they have and obviously so. It means they can no longer be taken seriously. It is axiomatic that if you have churches they will seek to influence education. And will influence education.

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@spendius,

It is interesting to speculate that, had Darwinism not been developed in the context of a prior intellectual commitment to the idea of 'creation', that it would not be regarded as a doctrine of creation, but only as what it actually is, namely, a biological theory concerning the origin of species. In other words, we have made a religion out of it, because it occupies a space formerly occupied by religion.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

Quote:
we dont wait until we have understanding to think critically
AAAAHHHH well theres yer problem Anus. "critical thinking" without any knowledge is what you attempt to accomplish herein. Rarely informed but never in doubt. Thats my take on you.

Now Gomer, no backsliding...remember you are trying to be heterosexual....Critical thinking after you have decided what is knowledge is what you attempt to acomplish herein. Factless posts where you try to apply critical thinking at a point way too late to be useful. I include a definition of critical as I know you have trouble determining what is knowledge and assume everything is....

crit·i·cal (krt-kl)
adj.
1. Inclined to judge severely and find fault.
2. Characterized by careful, exact evaluation and judgment: a critical reading.3. Of, relating to, or characteristic of critics or criticism: critical acclaim; a critical analysis of Melville's writings.
4. Forming or having the nature of a turning point; crucial or decisive: a critical point in the campaign.
5.
a. Of or relating to a medical crisis: an illness at the critical stage.
b. Being or relating to a grave physical condition especially of a patient.
6. Indispensable; essential: a critical element of the plan; a second income that is critical to the family's well-being.
7. Being in or verging on a state of crisis or emergency: a critical shortage of food.
8. Fraught with danger or risk; perilous.
9. Mathematics Of or relating to a point at which a curve has a horizontal tangent line, as at a maximum or minimum.
10. Chemistry & Physics Of or relating to the value of a measurement, such as temperature, at which an abrupt change in a quality, property, or state occurs: A critical temperature of water is 100°C, its boiling point at standard atmospheric pressure.
11. Physics Capable of sustaining a nuclear chain reaction.

Do you see now how you need critical thinking before you decide what is knowledge ?? Otherwise everyone would just run off at the mouth foolishly like you do all the time.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

If you are serious about allowing ID or Creationism to be taught as valid science, I guess Id have to point as you as a purveyor of fraud.

You are without doubt the dumbest **** I ever met....how many times do I have to tell you for it to sink into that senile withered sponge you call your brain ? I am against Creationist science. Maybe I should say it again....I am against Creationist science....write it down somewhere you can see it and remember it.

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@xris,

A reasonable viewpoint. Science and religion occupy different missions and the accusations that "without religion we would be mere brutes" or equally, "gods srve no function to the population" are equally ridiculous.
However, the relms of faith or conversely, the wprld where evidence drives conclusions should not be overlapped

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@Ionus,

Should I even respond to this? I think not. Its too full of anger and contains little scholarship so why bother?

Now I would like to defend my tardiness in NOT RESPONDING, lest ANus or his ilk accuse me of "ducking off for several hours to escape his superior intellect" .(Anus keeps forgetting that we occupy different quadrants of this planet so that when he is awake, Im often getting a good nights sleep). That, coupled with a major power outage due to several thunderstorms last night kept me off the board for several hours.
However , when I returned this AM, I was quickly underwhelmed by the power of his arguments, especially the rookie part where he actually went and "looked up" the word "critical" and posted the entire slew of definitions including the one that refers to nuclear reactions.
That was all relevant stuff wasnt it?

What words shall we have him look up today?

I will start by suggesting he look up "breathtaking inanity" .

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AUSTRALIA UPDATE

Quote:

Creationism creeps into NSW schools
(Jodie Minus, The Australian, June 25, 2010)

Students at one NSW school were told by an untrained scripture teacher they would "burn in hell" if they didn't believe in Jesus

And, elsewhere in the state, children at other schools were given creationism showbags. A survey by Sydney's Macquarie University also found 70 per cent of scripture teachers think children should be taught the Bible as historical fact and 80 per cent believe students should not be exposed to non-Christian beliefs.

The survey found a group of scripture volunteers were distributing kits called "Creation For Kids" containing colouring books, calendars and DVDs deriding evolution and claiming that the universe was only 6000 years old.

The university conducted surveys at 13 NSW schools and spoke to parents, teachers, scripture volunteers and principals, and found stark differences between what parents want and what is taught in classrooms.

Researcher Cathy Byrne, of the university's Centre for Research and Social Inclusion, said most parents would be shocked to learn what goes on in some religious education classes. Scripture teachers generally discouraged questioning, emphasised submission to authority and excluded different beliefs.

"Most parents and trained teachers want critical thinking about religion, individual responsibility for moral decisions and empathy towards others," Ms Byrne said. "Several parents also expressed concerns that pressure is being put on children to become full church members."

Ms Byrne said NSW schools were required to offer access to religious groups to teach children for an hour a week but there were no requirements for professional training or control of content.

The survey comes as the NSW Department of Education tries out ethics classes as an alternative to scripture.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

However , when I returned this AM, I was quickly underwhelmed by the power of his arguments, especially the rookie part where he actually went and "looked up" the word "critical" and posted the entire slew of definitions including the one that refers to nuclear reactions.

Obviously you would be underwhelmed by Io's argument. The fact that he means that you're all big talk about critical thinking but never actually get around to doing any is hardly up your subjective street. That he is right is neither here nor there.

Auberon Waugh used to say that as soon as a man started talking about his honesty the quicker he told the butler to count the spoons.

If you wasn't so hopeless with critical thinking and showed some sign of knowing what the expression meant rather than knowing how to type the words, or gob them out in company, assuming company can be found which can put up with such pomposity, perhaps Io wouldn't feel so moved to take you to task on the matter. He's actually doing you a favour. Or trying to. It's not anger. It's the hand of friendship. International counselling and for free. You ought to be grateful.
I gave up on such a pointless exercise many years ago. And not just with you although I think you are the worst but then again I've read more of your posts than anybody else's.

I don't think you know you are doing it. It is breathtakingly inane you know. When one hears a lady say--"Well brought up people don't do that sort of thing", it means she is asserting she has been well brought up. What's needed is for her to demonstrate she has been well brought up and thus disdains commenting on the behaviour of others. Otherwise she can end up looking for things to comment on about others for no other reason than to provide vehicles for her to draw attention to how well brought up she has been.

I think many female journalists are recruited on their expertise at this solipsistic art form. I think it activates the pleasure centres in the brain. I would hazard a guess that the activations are more precious and more deeply felt in those who have not been exposed to a religious education and on Pavlovian principles alone it is likely to become virulent as it is so understandable.

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@wandeljw,

That's nothing wande. The groundsmen at the SCG have been known to doctor the pitch to neutralise England's bowling line up and to play to their own strengths.

We should be more concerned about that than kids getting colouring books. Colouring books are very educational. Check out Andy Warhol's childhood. If the DVDs were re-writable ones the kids could use them to record other things and calenders are always useful as well as being decorative.

The general thesis you seem to support ought really to enable you to describe what sort of education your companions have had if you think that the effects of what you report on are so pronounced. What will the kids you have under your rapt attention be doing in, say, 30 years. Or even during the warm evenings in the parks. NSW has about 60,000 kids in each school year. How do you envisage their dispersion into the culture when school has been left behind based on your own observations of the dispersion you were a part of.

I mentioned a hypothetical lady in my last post, of a type I've been very familiar with before entropy got to work, looking for excuses to draw attention to how well brought up she had been.

It looks to me as if you trawl the world looking for excuses to draw attention to your scientific credentials. You might try getting some first.

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@spendius,

spendius wrote:

I mentioned a hypothetical lady in my last post

Are all the ladies in your life hypothetical? Smile

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@wandeljw,

I'm not ready for a monastery quite yet wande.

The hypothetical lady is a much more scientific concept than "her indoors". Critical thinking applied to the latter has value in proportion to the fraction of womanhood she represents. Hence theology derives from monastic life. And why theologians must avoid marriage.

They think of "woman" like you think of kids. In the abstract.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

Anus keeps forgetting that we occupy different quadrants of this planet so that when he is awake, Im often getting a good nights sleep

An assumption based on what ??

Quote:

posted the entire slew of definitions including the one that refers to nuclear reactions.

So as not to be accused of selective quoting and also to promote scholarship in you, an obvious needy cause.

But will you be remembering that I am against ID being taught as science or will we go a little down the track and you will bluster on about my support for it ?

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@wandeljw,

Yet there are many others who do damage to the public perception of science...the press for example, The Noble Prize for another....where are all the scientists attacking those fields ? Oh, thats right...they are busy attacking religion.

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@Ionus,

Quote:

An assumption based on what ??

geography ANus. Unless youre assuming Im up at night. (youd be wrong on that assumption too)

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