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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Apr, 2010 11:36 am
@farmerman,
Fundamentalist subculture, as you call it, will never wrest "good" science from public schools if it wrests and wrests and wrests. And you know it.

You just like pretending. Give yourself a nice sitting duck. Anything flying fast has your gun pointing into the empty sky it left about three hours ago.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2010 09:26 am
Quote:
The Danger of Ignoring Creationism
(Michael Zimmerman, The Huffington Post, April 15, 2010)

Last week I wrote about the problems the Discovery Institute had with my article arguing that the evolution/creation controversy was a battle between different religious worldviews rather than a struggle between religion and science.

Now I find myself writing about yet another major creationist organization's criticisms of my work for The Huffington Post. This time the attack is coming from Answers in Genesis, the people behind the $27 million creation museum-cum-theme-park just outside Cincinnati. You know who I mean -- they're the folks who show dinosaurs and humans comfortably cavorting and who declare that the Earth is only 6,000 years old.

There are two issues I need to address.

The first, why the criticism leveled by Answers in Genesis is meaningless nonsense, is rather trivial. The second, however, why any of us should care in the least about what creationist organizations have to say, is far from trivial. Indeed, I'd argue that it may well be one of the more important issues of our time.

Let me dispense with the trivial point first. Last month I discussed why social Darwinism was both a misnomer and a terrible idea, both scientifically and socially. Not surprisingly, Answers in Genesis disagreed. They simply repeated their argument that social Darwinism is a "logical ... conclusion of Darwinian scientific theory" and then, grotesquely, pointed to the existence of serial killers to support their absurd contention.

Such behavior is nothing new for Answers in Genesis and their founder, Ken Ham. Two outrageous but all-too-typical examples will make my point. Back in 1987 Ham published an article entitled "Creationism: Cure for AIDS?" in which he concluded that "the spread of AIDS can be stopped -- by simply rejecting false evolution." In an even more extreme move, Ham and Answers in Genesis opted to commemorate the fifth anniversary of 9/11 by running ads in the Cincinnati Inquirer and in Christianity Today laying the attack at the feet of evolution.

Ham and his lot are clearly extremists, so why should we care what they do or say? Wouldn't we be better off simply ignoring them?

I wish it were so, but, as amazing as it might seem, Answers in Genesis and the Discovery Institute have the ability to shape public policy in frightening ways. Unless many of us keep pointing out what they're all about, they may well succeed in reshaping America and redefining science in a manner that will do irreparable damage.

And make no mistake about it, Answers in Genesis and the Discovery Institute are close cousins, even though they present different personas. Yes, the Discovery Institute is slicker -- with many more lawyers, better suits, and a bevy of political operatives -- than the young-earth- and fire-and-brimstone-preaching contingent that makes up the core of Answers in Genesis.

But, most importantly, both groups want the country recast as a Christian fundamentalist nation. And they both abhor the concept of evolution and want science redefined.

Am I being too extreme? You be the judge.

As I pointed out last week, Howard Ahmanson, Jr., one of the Discovery Institute's biggest donors, has expressed radical views about the role religion should play in America. And that's putting it mildly, since he's said, "My goal is the total integration of biblical law into our lives."

Take a look at the The Wedge, the Discovery Institute's original planning document, and cringe when you read that their goal is "nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies."

Or listen to Ken Ham's 2010 "State of the Nation" speech (yes, he thinks he's important enough to deliver a speech with that name!) and hear him call for a country based on "God's word" rather than "man's word."

Both organizations, apparently suffering from a bad case of science envy, are desperately calling for science to be redefined to include the supernatural. Yes, you read that correctly. Both think that science is too limited in its present form and that it needs to be expanded beyond its present search for natural explanations. Observation, experimentation, data collection, analysis, indeed, the entire scientific method, be damned; bring in supernatural explanations.

This would all be funny if groups of this sort weren't able to influence politicians, primarily at the local school board level and in state legislatures around the country. However, anti-evolution bills or pro-creationism actions persistently crop up, under various names, in state after state and town after town.

What may be saddest of all about this is that natural allies, people who care about high quality science instruction and respect for others, are being manipulated into attacking one another. Religion and fundamentalism are not synonymous and I've come to realize that deeply religious people are usually respectful of others with different beliefs. Fundamentalists, on the other hand, are typically intolerant of the slightest deviation from their own views. Which brings me back to my original point: the controversy is not between religion and science.

Whatever you may think of religion, the fact is that the majority of religions, including a majority of Christian denominations, view evolution as being fully compatible with their faith. When religion as a social construct is attacked because of the extreme pronouncements of people like Ken Ham, intolerance abounds and ignorance wins.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2010 10:05 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

Quote:
The Danger of Ignoring Creationism
(Michael Zimmerman, The Huffington Post, April 15, 2010)

Take a look at the The Wedge, the Discovery Institute's original planning document, and cringe when you read that their goal is "nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies."

Or listen to Ken Ham's 2010 "State of the Nation" speech (yes, he thinks he's important enough to deliver a speech with that name!) and hear him call for a country based on "God's word" rather than "man's word."


I think it's great that the Internet allows crackpots like Ham and the DI, to expose themselves. I think they will ultimately do less damage the more they draw attention to themselves.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2010 10:08 am
@wandeljw,
That is shot through with assertions wande and, as such, has no relevance to the debate and is profoundly unscientific. With people like that defending science it is no wonder you are all rattled.

The converted will accept all the assertions and the opponents won't. It goes nowhere except that it fills up the white space between the ads in the Huffington Post. At a very low cost. An hour of Mr Zimmerman's time. Top side.

One might almost say that it makes the case for the other side in the sense that people who write like that in public are to be resisted at all costs.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  0  
Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2010 10:49 am
@rosborne979,
Ive said that to dismiss the Creationists would, in turn, merely give them some license to continue their garbage. I dont like percieved license no matter what side of an issue. Only that which results from honest work is worth considering. Crteationism and ID are idiots delights where no further inquiry is needed or even desired.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2010 12:36 pm
@farmerman,
There is an ongoing enquiry into whether evolution "theory" is a dangerous one for society to accept.

The simple fact that Creationists and IDers, in the main, do not know how to argue their case, as Dover so emphatically demonstrated, is no valid reason to castigate the whole ideology they purport to represent.

It is a straw man of your's fm that they do know how to represent the ID case and that is why you turn your back on anybody who might do and focus your attention on what are, in reality, sitting ducks.

By adopting this easy strategy you are permanently stalled. There is further enquiry needed and desired but your assumptions save you from engaging in it.

That post could easily be fitted into the pages which were on these threads six years ago. That is how stalled you are. Your battery will soon be flat old boy.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 08:17 am
UK UPDATE
Quote:
The Creation? It is beyond belief
(Simon Perry, The Leicester Mercury, April 7, 2010)

If you need an organisation that appears to be dedicated to the spreading of ignorance then look no further than Answers in Genesis, whose UK offices are in Leicester.

Indoctrinate your children with their teaching materials and you'll be able to eliminate vast swathes of knowledge in geology, biology, astronomy, physics and chemistry.

Hundreds of years of scientific discovery can be eliminated from your child's brain with just a couple of their easy-to-read books or DVDs.

Their "educational" material states humans were around at the same time as dinosaurs (they died out more than 60 million years before we were around), and a claim that the Earth is just 6,000 years old (it's actually about 4.5 billion years old).

It's pretty easy to imagine ways that we could prove the theory of evolution isn't true. Just find one fossil " yes, just one, that is clearly out of sequence with evolution.

By dating the rocks in which the fossils are found, scientists have built up a clear picture of the tree of life evolving.

If you can dig up a fossil of some human remains that predate the evolution of primates, you've proven humans couldn't have evolved.

Dig up a primate that predates the evolution of mammals and you've shown that primates could not have evolved.

Find, as J B S Haldane put it, a rabbit in the Precambrian period. Just one will do.

Yet millions of fossils are dug up every year and they all sit perfectly within the tree of evolution.

Nothing excites a scientist more than proving an established theory wrong, and finding that one fossil would likely win the scientist a Nobel Prize.

Yet in the 150 years since Darwin published his theory of evolution, nobody has found one.

It's equally easy to disprove creationism; the favoured idea of Answers in Genesis that we were all made by a perfect, benevolent, omnipotent and intelligent god in our present form about 6,000 years ago.

To disprove this idea, all you need to do is to find one feature of an animal " yes, just one, that, if designed, could only have been designed by a complete idiot.

Here we have thousands of examples. One of my favourite is the recurrent laryngeal nerve.

This is the nerve that connects the brain to the voice box, giving creationists the power to spread their nonsense verbally.

Fish have the same nerve. The fourth vagus nerve in sharks connects the brain to the gills via a direct route.

But, as fish evolved into land mammals, the nerve took on a different purpose, connecting the brain to the voice box.

As we evolved necks, both ends of the nerve needed to be at the top of the neck.

Yet due to its evolutionary roots, the nerve passes down to our heart and back.

In humans, this is a daft enough route to take. But in a giraffe, it is about two unnecessary metres long. If this is design, it is anything but intelligent.

While the theory of evolution was proven conclusively long before Watson and Crick discovered DNA in 1953, this discovery, together with the technology to sequence it, has provided us with huge amounts of further evidence.

The way that DNA copies itself and passes itself on to the next generation perfectly fits our previous understanding of how descent with modification worked.

And when we look at the DNA of different animals, we can see exactly how they fit into the evolutionary tree of life by looking at which genes are the same, and different, from their relatives.
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 08:45 am
There is an ongoing enquiry into whether evolution "theory" is a dangerous one for society to accept. - spendius

Said enquiry getting conducted by spendi.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 09:19 am
@edgarblythe,
Come on Ed. There's been an ad running on these threads entitled Darwin's Dangerous Idea. So also a TV series with the same title. The whole of Islam thinks evolution a dangerous idea.

I asked a well-heeled Moslem last week about the matter. He recommended a book, Evolution Deceit by Harun Yahya. I haven't looked into it yet.

I think that before the subject is foisted onto the kids by militant liberals (know what I mean?) it should be decided whether or not it is dangerous. Simply asserting that it is not dangerous is far too weak a justification and clearly grossly unscientific. The claim that religion is unscientific, which is not only unscientific but contrary to evolutionary first principles, is not a justification that evolution is not a dangerous idea.

Dover ducked such a challenge right in everybody's face. So did fm on these threads.

Are you in favour Ed of teaching evolution before it is proved safe for society to do so? On a wing and a prayer so to say. Attacking religion has nothing to do with the matter. I daresay there are atheists who think evolution dangerous.

0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 09:51 am
It is the rabble-rousing nature of certain anti forces to frighten people. Evolution is not an instigator of civil unrest, but a target of it. Just as innocent citizens were targets of McCarthyism, academics targets of Pol Pot's maniacs in Cambodia. Control your own side's hysterical spokesmen and the problem resolves itself, peacefully.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 11:20 am
@edgarblythe,
That wasn't an answer to the question Ed.

I can't answer for the "hysterical spokemen".

This was the question-

Quote:
Are you in favour Ed of teaching evolution before it is proved safe for society to do so?


edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 11:21 am
@spendius,
You need to find something about it that makes a credible argument beyond what I wrote.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 12:48 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

UK UPDATE
Quote:
The Creation? It is beyond belief
(Simon Perry, The Leicester Mercury, April 7, 2010)

It's pretty easy to imagine ways that we could prove the theory of evolution isn't true. Just find one fossil " yes, just one, that is clearly out of sequence with evolution.


Actually, I suspect that it would take more than one.

Evolution is so well understood that to find a rabbit in precambrian rocks would cast more doubt on the circumstances of the find than on Evolution.

First the find itself would have to be verified, then the rocks would have to be verified, then the people who found it would have to be verified, and even after all that, I think most scientists would just shake their heads and say we have a mystery on our hands. It would be just like finding a Boeing 747 in precambrian rock, no different.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 03:16 pm
@rosborne979,
I think it would cause a great stir among scientists as well as the religious right. You are correct that the entire circumstances of the fossils deposition, rock ages, etc would be scrutinized in detail. Remember, these kinds of occurences have always happened
(I wont use hoaxes until, should it happen, the fossil is forensically concluded on).

Pilydown man, Nebraska man,the Pennsylvania aged Human "knuckle bone" Paluxey river "human footprints". IKA Stones, the chinese fossil bird that was "married" from two different genera, and several others. All these were successfully debunked and the truth of the frauds they represented were discovered within months to decades after the discoveries.

Remember the fossil of the "Dinosaur" that was discovered in place with a hominid skeleton in i ts jaws? That one was a very skillfully done cast using the same rock materials that were part of the dinosaur fossil. What gave em away was that the scientists working on the fossil beds were quite familiar with the rock and bone and it turned out that the cast itself, when viewed in thin section polarized microscopy, showed that the bone was actually particles that were "Glued together" with an epoxy type cement.

The Creationist frauds only know a smidgeon about the sciences and thought they could fake something without being caught. Thats the problem with a little knowledge and a desire to deceieve, it only makes the story more entertaining when the facts are fdound out. The ministry that posed the dino-hominid fossil looked like a real bunch of schlubs and they really havent been heard of much since then.

Same thing with Ken Ham and his Dr Dino title. Hes been ass whupped so many times that his Creation museum is visited by more scientists as a really dumb fun trip than there are visits by the actual Creationists. Last year the Geological Society of AMerica held its midqest meeting in Cinnisnatti and there were almost 2 thousand real honest to goodness geologists who tried to make the trip to Kentucky to see this museum. I have a picture of one of my geo friends who had his picture taken saddled up on a triceratops.
He uses it on his departmental web page
Joe Nation
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 04:03 pm
Quote:
He uses it on his departmental web page


Ha ha ha ha hah hah hah!

Joe(made my day)Nation
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 04:28 pm
@farmerman,
Quote:
All these were successfully debunked and the truth of the frauds they represented were discovered within months to decades after the discoveries.


Have you any info fm on the scientific papers published which were based on the frauds that took decades to unravel. I imagine that the ones based on the those that only took months to expose were a result of prematuria ejactulatorix which is an endemic condition in cold northern latitudes for evolutionary reasons. (see Ms Ida, aka the Missing Blink).
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 04:57 pm
@spendius,
So you are not familiar with the Piltdown Man spendi? It was an occurence that involved severl churchmembers of the Anglican Persuasion and a few noted "real estate developers " of the day
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 05:15 pm
@farmerman,
I've heard of it. Didn't a minister resign?

The Anglican Church is a property company you know.

Had FitzRoy's mate not decided that five years of no shagging of English Roses was too high a price to pay to swing in a hammock to entertain him, Sir Charles would not have been knighted, buried in WA or have produced a raft of thrumming disciples and would have had to settle instead for a rural parsonage as God's minister, a measly £2,000 a year and rendering the couplings of swains and damsels respectable, abluting original sin from the souls of the nappy fillers and inchoate monsters and shoving the putrifying remains of the carked under the sod in a dignified manner in between poking his squeeze and netting butterflies to pin in his glass display cabinets.

And we would be talking football. Or currach construction.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 25 Apr, 2010 06:49 pm
@spendius,
If thats an apology, accepted
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Mon 26 Apr, 2010 05:40 am
@farmerman,
What's the line of reasoning that leads to such a conclusion fm? I'll listen to any damn thing at all.

I think you might find Tristram Shandy a mite more interesting than you have been led to believe it is by your educational authorities. But you have to take it very slowly. If you take my advice I verily believe that a time will come to pass when you will have no words to express your gratitude to A2K for being the only route you could ever have arrived at Sterne's feet.

A couple of days between each chapter is about slow enough. The idea that 50 pages at a sitting is "reading" a book like that is ridiculous.
 

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