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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 01:33 pm
@Lightwizard,
It's just a long-winded publisher's blurb Wiz.

We don't really wish to know that the authors demolish creationism and ID. That information can be gleaned from the title.

We wish to know how society proceeds if it places all its faith in science. The "all" is the key word. If it is not "all" there needs be something else. Corrosive cyncisism is one possibility based on the notion that scientists are human and thus subjected to the same weaknesses as any other set of humans and that power corrupts.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Thu 12 Nov, 2009 04:30 pm
@rosborne979,
Quote:
LMAO Thanks Wand.


Snidey remarks based on nothing but another snidey remark do not disguise the fact that you can't answer my last question on here which is on topic unlike your last post.

And if you're laughing your arse off why did your emo only smile.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 10:02 am
DISCOVERY INSTITUTE DEBATES ID AT MINNEAPOLIS LAW SCHOOL
Quote:
FAITH IN REASON
(Pioneer Press Twin Cities, November 12, 2009)

"Intelligent Design" is an explanation of life's origins that seeks to leave room for a Designer, AKA God. "ID," as it is called, is at the front lines of our continuing debate over evolution and science education, still going strong 150 years after Charles Darwin published "Origin of the Species."

Thanks to the University of St. Thomas School of Law, we understand the battle a little bit better.

At a symposium at the Minneapolis law school on Tuesday, we heard Casey Luskin of the Discovery Institute argue he wants "to see 'ID' advanced as a scientific proposition.'' But he argued that public schools should "teach the controversy'' over evolution. He said many states, including Minnesota, have incorporated this critical approach into their state science standards.

He said: "We're not trying to ban evolution. We're not even asking that 'ID' be taught, even though we do think it's science.'' He followed that with a power-point demonstration in the college's moot courtroom that questions whether the correct metaphor for man's descent is a "tree of life'' with a universal ancestor or an "orchard" suggesting multiple sources.

He raced through how African monkeys could have ended up in the Americas " an unlikely event that, he said, gives credence to the "orchard model" of multiple lines of descent.

Luskin was followed by Peter Hess, a theologian, author of "Catholicism and Science" and a defender of teaching evolution in schools. He said Intelligent Design is "not science'' but is "poor theology.'' He said it presents God as a "mere designer, and not a very good one at that,'' responsible for "eons of suffering" such as genetic diseases and praying mantises that mix courtship with cannibalism.

He said intelligent design arose from the Protestant evangelical movement, and that mainline churches do not see evolution as conflicting with their beliefs. He said the alternative to seeing God as a meddling "designer" is to see "God remaining hidden, indecipherable, behind the veil of nature.''

Hess said "theistic evolutionists" like himself are comfortable with an "unimaginably vast, dynamic, ancient, evolving universe." He added: "If we accept the idea of creation at all, why can't we accept the autonomy ... of what has been created?"

St. Thomas is a Catholic law school whose mission is "integrating faith and reason in the search for truth....'' We appreciate a setting in which faith and science can be discussed with respect and passion.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 10:40 am
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:

DISCOVERY INSTITUTE DEBATES ID AT MINNEAPOLIS LAW SCHOOL
Quote:
FAITH IN REASON
(Pioneer Press Twin Cities, November 12, 2009)

St. Thomas is a Catholic law school whose mission is "integrating faith and reason in the search for truth....''


Maybe Faith and Reason can't be integrated. How can you integrate two antithetical philosophies?

Maybe they should change their mission to say, "rationalizing faith in the face of reason to assuage the fears of the faithful". Wink
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 10:49 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
He said the alternative to seeing God as a meddling "designer" is to see "God remaining hidden, indecipherable, behind the veil of nature.''


A pity he didn't add "paring his fingernails" as James Joyce did nearly a century ago.

He ought to have at least hinted that the core of the respectful and passionate debate is hidden, unmentionable, and behind a veil of high sounding euphemism.

The quote takes us nowhere. It is simply people drawing attention to themselves, claiming permission to avoid the disreputable industrial process and possibly making easy money.

Hess is ridiculous.


0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 13 Nov, 2009 10:59 am
Part of an acronym Francis, an avowed atheist I think, contributed earlier today is this sentence--

Quote:
Intelligent design undermines all libertine societies.


That's lifting the euphemism veil a bit.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 12:29 pm
It's about time this Universe By Design appears as a show on the Learning Channel or Home and Garden. ID is a running joke now but UD has some legitimate debate. Unintelligible Design
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 03:17 pm
@Lightwizard,
Unintelligible Design??

Okay--I'll go with that. I've never said that intelligence performance isn't sometimes unintelligible. The higher levels of chess, science, diplomacy and theology are unintelligible to the ordinary person. That does not mean they are unintelligent and nothing is being designed.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 04:20 pm
@spendius,
However,unintelligible mumbo jumbo is usually indicative of a complete lack of substance.

spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 04:26 pm
@farmerman,
Not always you mean?
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 04:28 pm
@spendius,
99.9999% (what chemists call 6 nines of certainty)
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 04:31 pm
@farmerman,
Okay Mr Pedantic. Were you saying that my post was unintelligible?

Hinted assertions now eh? Ones with a built in get out clause. Is it a settled habit of your's?
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 14 Nov, 2009 08:49 pm
@farmerman,
What they don't have with their unscientific description of ID (and I do mean description, as in fictional). What they have come up with is a set of dogmatic rules making evolution into something resembling alchemy and a seance. Either one or both. An alchemist's seance, also knows as seance fiction.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 06:39 am
@Lightwizard,
They have an unscientific description of ID because a scientific one would have you little lambs lying down in darkened rooms with cold compresses on your brows.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 07:05 am
@spendius,
Quote:
a scientific one would have you little lambs lying down in darkened rooms with cold compresses on your brows.
Promises promises, when are you (and yours) gonna deliver a truly "scientific description". I feel that youre just another IDjit bluff. All talk and no action, all hat and no cattle, All vines ansd no taters.

Its been what 5 years since youve been threatening what you "truly scienytific" IDjits are gonna tweak our noses with and yet, youve still left it all undelivered.

Why youre just another Creationist fraud spendi.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 07:37 am
Quote:
Black and white: Nearly 150 years after Darwin, creationists and evolution theorists hold tight to their arguments
(By Kelly McBride, Green Bay Press-Gazette, November 15, 2009)

For 150 years, Charles Darwin's "The Origin of Species" has been the go-to text for understanding and teaching the principles of evolutionary biology.

Despite the book's age, Darwin's ideas continue to fuel debate about the relationship between faith and science. How that relationship should translate to the classroom remains a matter of contention.

Evolution theory holds that all life is related and descended from a common ancestor, with changes occurring in a population over time. Creationism says God created all life, and that the Earth is much younger than modern science suggests. Darwin's principles are used in public and private schools by theists and atheists. The U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 2005 that public school teaching of intelligent design, a form of creationism, violates the constitutional separation of church and state.

The Wisconsin Department of Public Instruction's position statement on the issue calls evolution "a fundamental and important unifying concept in science." It further states that incorporating creation in the teaching of science curriculum would raise "serious legal issues" because of the separation of church and state.

Yet there remains a sometimes-vocal segment of the population that wants to see creation and evolution taught side by side at school, an approach often favored by some home-schoolers.

"You can't teach creationism or intelligent design without getting into a little bit of trouble in the public schools, which is a shame," said former Green Bay East High School science teacher Jim Kraft of Allouez. "What's being promoted in the public schools is really atheism. … There's the (presumption) that the Earth is millions, billions of years old, and that is really a very subtle attack on the Bible, and on Christianity."

Kraft used to be an evolutionist, but later became a Christian and an adherent to creationist principles. He thinks public schools should teach creationism, and he isn't alone.

Although nearly half of Americans believe humans have evolved over time, more than half " 64 percent " support teaching creationism along with evolution in the public schools, according to a 2005 Pew Research Center study, the center's most recent on the topic. About a quarter of Americans opposed the idea.

For many scientists and teachers, suggesting that creationism should be taught alongside evolution is frustrating and even downright insulting.

"It's extremely frustrating," said Rich Krieg, who teaches biology at Green Bay East High School. "And right now, because of the anniversary of 'The Origin of Species,' there are a couple of groups totally coming out with a full-scale attack of the book.

"And once that stuff is out there, it's really tough for the scientific community to combat that, you know, with reasonable, logical arguments that take awhile to explain."

Rehna and Bob Bernhardt of Allouez have home-schooled their children, ages 9 to 23, teaching them tenets of both creationism and evolution.

Bob Bernhardt said he thinks scientific evidence exists that shows a great flood " much like that described in the biblical account of Noah's ark " and inconsistencies in evolution theory.

Formerly a self-described "theistic evolutionist," Bernhardt now believes science also backs up the creationism concept. His kids, he said, know about both theories.

"When they learn about creation," he said, "right alongside it, they're learning why we disagree with evolution. … We want them to be aware how to navigate in the marketplace of ideas. … When you teach your children about something that's debatable, like creation versus evolution, it's hard to teach one without at least having the contrast of the other."

Scientists, however, argue it's wrong to present both theories to students as equals.

Comparing evolution and creation in the same breath is simply comparing science with non-science, said Anindo Choudhury, associate professor of biology and environmental science at St. Norbert College.

"You are assuming the students have the tools to make up their mind," he said. "So when you present something as having two alternatives, that immediately sets up or presupposes that both alternatives are equally plausible, that they have equal merit. … I would have no problem presenting intelligent design if it were based on the scientific method and the principles. (But) when you say 'intelligent design,' it presupposes a designer."

Kraft doesn't think someone can be a Christian and an evolutionist.

"It really boils down to the authority of Scripture," he said. "Are you going to believe God, or are you going to believe man?"

But not every person of faith agrees with that black-and-white stance.

The Roman Catholic Church repeatedly has stated that it does not oppose evolution, provided it is treated strictly as science, said Tony Abts, president of Appleton's ACES Xavier Educational System and a former science teacher.

"Where the Catholic Church objects to evolution is if you take it out of the realm of science, and you put it into the realm of philosophy," he said, adding, "Science has a whole lot to say about how things happened, but very little to say about why, whereas the Bible tells us a whole lot about why things happened and doesn't tell us a whole lot about how."

At St. Norbert, a Catholic college, the subjects are kept in separate realms, Choudhury said. The school has a strong religious studies faculty to help students when it comes to questions of Scripture and religion, he said.

"A science class deals with trying to understand the world through natural processes," Choudhury said. "Those are the parameters. And the moment you go outside those parameters, you're no longer in the realm of science. … So the students need to be grounded in the fundamentals of the science. They can always explore those additional things once they have that grounding, but that's not the purview of the that class itself."

As science and religion enter the next 150 years post-"Origin," the debate will likely continue. Although for some, it's not a debate at all.

"If somebody says to me, 'Do you believe evolution or creation?'" Abts said, "I would say 'yes.'"
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 09:56 am
@farmerman,
Quote:
Its been what 5 years since youve been threatening what you "truly scienytific" IDjits are gonna tweak our noses with and yet, youve still left it all undelivered.

Why youre just another Creationist fraud spendi.


It's you lot effemm who can't read properly. I don't do "read it off an instrument" stuff. I do jigsaw puzzles of nods and winks for those who don't automatically think something is incomprehensible because they don't understand it on a quick glance.

Your complacent and self-serving assumption that creationists are cretins and IDers are idiots or idjits is your weakness.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 10:02 am
Do you never stop and ponder why Mr Kraft went from being an evolutionist to being a Christian? Passing such things off as a nutcase conversion is just too easy.

0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 10:12 am
@wandeljw,
Quote:
Black and white: Nearly 150 years after Darwin, creationists and evolution theorists hold tight to their arguments
(By Kelly McBride, Green Bay Press-Gazette, November 15, 2009)

...said former Green Bay East High School science teacher Jim Kraft of Allouez. "What's being promoted in the public schools is really atheism…

No it's not, it's just science.

Quote:
There's the (presumption) that the Earth is millions, billions of years old, and that is really a very subtle attack on the Bible, and on Christianity."

The Earth is billions of years old. If that fact flies in the face of your fantasy, then that's tough luck for your fantasy. It doesn't mean that we have to water down science education for kids just to teach them that some people believe in fantasies and some people don't.

Quote:
Kraft doesn't think someone can be a Christian and an evolutionist.

This guy continues to demonstrate that he's an idiot.

Quote:
"It really boils down to the authority of Scripture," he said. "Are you going to believe God, or are you going to believe man?"

He's happy to "presume" that there is a God, and that he knows something about this God without an iota of evidence at all, but he accuses science of "presuming" that the Earth is billions of years old when we've got mountains (literally) of evidence to support it. What a raging moron.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Sun 15 Nov, 2009 10:25 am
@rosborne979,
Thanks for the analysis, rosborne. I agree with you 100 percent.
 

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