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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jul, 2009 06:40 pm
@cicerone imposter,
* The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).

* The clergy...believe that any portion of power confided to me [as President] will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly: for I have sworn upon the altar of God, eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. But this is all they have to fear from me: and enough, too, in their opinion (Letter to Benjamin Rush, 1800).

* History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes (Letter to von Humboldt, 1813).

* In every country and in every age, the priest has been hostile to liberty. He is always in alliance with the despot, abetting his abuses in return for protection to his own (Letter to H. Spafford, 1814).

-Thomas Jefferson

(no italics needed -- all one needs to to is read the Federalist Papers and other writings of the founder of the country to know that clerics and churches have no business mixing into politics and especially in public schools -- they have established their own "colleges" to indoctrinate the willing).
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 05:15 am
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
* The clergy, by getting themselves established by law and ingrafted into the machine of government, have been a very formidable engine against the civil and religious rights of man (Letter to J. Moor, 1800).


What's the alternative? Anarchy or a clergy by another name.

How do you avoid "tyranny over the mind of man"? At what point in history would you begin?

What's a "free civil government"?

Those are disingenuous platitudes.

I read that Mr Jefferson owned slaves.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 08:59 am
BACKGROUND ON SPENCER, IOWA'S NEW SCHOOL POLICY

Quote:
Spencer school district shapes policy on religion
(By STACI HUPP • Des Moines Register • July 8, 2009)

Public school students in Spencer will get to study the Bible and pray at graduation if school district leaders approve a proposed "religious liberties" policy, the first of its kind in Iowa.

The plan calls for elective classes such as "Critic of Darwinism," which includes arguments against the theory of evolution, and "The Bible in History and Literature."

School officials say they want to set clear rules for religious expression without discouraging students, for example, from writing "Merry Christmas" on holiday cards in class.

Spencer Superintendent Greg Ebeling said most public educators who fear lawsuits go too far to exclude religion from schools.

"We're going to have critics, but we're not out to cram religion down anybody's throats," said Ebeling, whose northwest Iowa district enrolls about 2,000 students. "It's just about what's the right way to handle it. The way we handle it right now is to avoid it at all costs."

Opponents worry that the policy could pave the way to school-sponsored evangelizing to a captive audience of impressionable children.

Ben Stone, who heads the American Civil Liberties Union of Iowa, said the U.S. Constitution already protects students' right to pray on their own or learn about religion in school.

"Where's the evidence that students in that district are having their religious freedoms curtailed by the government?" Stone asked.

"Because if that's happening, call us. They don't need to adopt a written policy."

Two Spencer school board members - one is a pastor - put the finishing touches on the policy, which they will take to the board today. A vote is not expected then.

Iowa's public school districts take a uniform approach to religion, "which is pretty close to a flat-out prohibition of it," said Mary Gannon, a lawyer with the Iowa Association of School Boards.

Spencer officials say they are the first in Iowa to spell out religious freedoms in schools, a concept more popular in Southern states such as Georgia and Texas. The district has not received complaints, but school board member Barb Van Wyk said confusion about religion's place in schools has created a gag effect.

Van Wyk, an Assemblies of God pastor who co-wrote the religious liberties policy, said her son's junior high classmates told him it was illegal to read the Bible at school in his free time.

"A lot of times students and teachers feel they have to check their faith at the door," she said. "That is not what the Constitution says."

Public schools walk a fine line between constitutionally protected freedom of religious expression and the separation of church and state.
Schools have been sued on both sides of the issue:

- In May, a judge ordered school officials in Santa Rosa County, Fla., to stop promoting personal religious beliefs after two high school students sued. The students said school officials led prayers at school events.

- A judge ruled in 2006 that school officials in Katy, Texas, could not stop elementary school students who wanted to hand out Valentine's Day cards with religious themes. The order stemmed from a lawsuit filed by parents.

- School officials in Odessa, Texas, agreed to eliminate an elective Bible class as part of a 2008 lawsuit settlement with the ACLU, which said the curriculum reflected a conservative Protestant bias.

The same Bible curriculum has been used legally by nearly 500 school districts in 38 states, according to the National Council on Bible Curriculum in Public Schools, which wrote it.

Spencer will be next on the list if the religious liberties policy is approved.

"It would be challenging for any school district to teach a Bible course in a way that satisfied all its constituencies, but this particular course is especially troubling," said Mark Chancey, a religious studies professor at Southern Methodist University in Dallas.

Van Wyk said she did not know about the Bible curriculum's controversial history, "but I'm not shocked."

"People that are hostile toward having anything to do with the Bible, they're absolutely going to cry foul," she said.

Spencer's proposed policy says schools must let students talk about their faith, pray on their own and distribute religious materials if they want to.

High school seniors would decide whether they want a student-led benediction at graduation. Most schools, including Spencer, do not allow the prayers now.

Religion classes "must be academic, not devotional," the policy says. Teachers could talk about their beliefs if students ask.

Kris Toay, a Spencer mother of two, likes the policy's message - teachers and students "shouldn't have to worry about what they say," she said. But the high school shouldn't offer a Bible class if it doesn't teach about the Koran and other books of worship, she said.

"That may possibly be better left for the universities," Toay said.

Civil rights activists say the best approach to religious liberty is knowing the law.

"If public school officials are properly trained, religious liberty thrives," Stone said.
panzade
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 09:16 am
@spendius,
Quote:
Those are disingenuous platitudes.


Quote:
I read that Mr Jefferson owned slaves.


classic disingenuous statement
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 09:55 am
@panzade,
A crass attempt to put himself above Thomas Jefferson,
as well he would do with all the Founding Fathers, as in his mind, the British won the Revolutionary War:

The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles? -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 18

As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?
-- John Adams, letter to FA Van der Kamp, December 27, 1816

The frightful engines of ecclesiastical councils, of diabolical malice, and Calvinistical good-nature never failed to terrify me exceedingly whenever I thought of preaching.
-- John Adams, letter to his brother-in-law, Richard Cranch, October 18, 1756, explaining why he rejected the ministry

Thirteen governments [of the original states] thus founded on the natural authority of the people alone, without a pretence of miracle or mystery, and which are destined to spread over the northern part of that whole quarter of the globe, are a great point gained in favor of the rights of mankind.
-- John Adams, "A Defence of the Constitutions of Government of the United States of America" (1787-88), from Adrienne Koch, ed, The American Enlightenment: The Shaping of the American Experiment and a Free Society (1965) p. 258, quoted from Ed and Michael Buckner, "Quotations that Support the Separation of State and Church"

When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.
-- John Adams, from Rufus K Noyes, Views of Religion, quoted from from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

Indeed, Mr. Jefferson, what could be invented to debase the ancient Christianism which Greeks, Romans, Hebrews and Christian factions, above all the Catholics, have not fraudulently imposed upon the public? Miracles after miracles have rolled down in torrents.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, December 3, 1813, quoted from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief

Cabalistic Christianity, which is Catholic Christianity, and which has prevailed for 1,500 years, has received a mortal wound, of which the monster must finally die. Yet so strong is his constitution, that he may endure for centuries before he expires.
-- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, July 16, 1814, from James A Haught, ed, 2000 Years of Disbelief


Pope Spendius XXX will now start foaming at the mouth.





cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 10:34 am
@Lightwizard,
Good post, LW. That's the first time I'm reading those quotes.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 01:11 pm
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles? -- John Adams, letter to Thomas Jefferson, June 20, 18


It's tittering material LW. What pomposity eh? So pompous that it was either acted or a species of madness. I assume Mr Adams was not mad out of my profound respect for your wonderful country. And acted, it's ******* hilarious. It's Col. Hall going off on one about how things should be done while Bilko rolls his eyes.

"The question before the human race" indeed. Hells Bells. This is Lucifer if I am not mistaken. Charles Laughton could have said that with enough integrity to convince the movie audience that the character he was playing is mad.

Mr Adams must have been in a competition with Mr Jefferson on who could say the most pompous thing with a straight face. And "The question before the human race" is a good effort.

One only has to consider the circumstances in which the statement was uttered. One can easily imagine other variations. "The human race is at a crossroad in its destiny", for example. Bit over the top maybe. Save that for the meeting. They, the variations, would have been tried out in the mind before one was committed to paper. Maybe vocalised. On a full belly, two or three large glasses real Coca Cola, breeches, about which the less said the better in view of the sanitary arrangements congruent with the times, but breeches loosened, the odd fart and scratch and the maid placing a large vase of fresh lavender as near to him as she dare. Coyotes howling, wind whistling, oil lamp flickering, ink pot empty, quills blunt, --we can all imagine the circumstances.

I bet Mr Obama daren't say that. It's fundamental Darwinianism.

I can well see that he had some deep-six stuff in his mind about how to make the most out of this untapped wilderness with some tools from the old world. And do it quick. And that in the clouds of smoke from his pipe he became a bit expansive, like one does, to the point of declaiming what the question before the human race was. It was intended to leave the gobs of the sodbusters wide open in wonderment.

Doing without priests and kings, he might have thought, was a form of athletic training. Noses to the grindstone. Fastest team gets to stake out the best land. That'll teach 'em to get their covered wagons in good nick.

Priests and kings are soft. Luxury, debauchery and idleness. And the population goes soft aping them when it gets the chance. It can't get back to work before Thursday afternoon after a festival.

Not good. That's not the right stuff for this situation, he must have thought.

But to bring the human race into the reckoning is over the hill, up the mountain side and down into the valley below. From where he was. It wouldn't be quite as pompous today. Still pretty pompous though. But if the reduction in pomposity from then to now continues to the point where the statement isn't pompous anymore one would have to admit that Mr Adams was a seer.

If he could see you now.



0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 01:29 pm
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?


Thinking he can ask a question like that is pompous too. The answer is irreducibly complex. Beyond him. Beyond us all. He implies he can know by asking it. And is it the bloodiest religion that ever existed?

And there are more things than the millions of fables, tales and legends blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation in the mix. Economic management for example. Military capability derived partly from the fables, tales and legends.

I think it is an absurd question and nothing more than a rhetorical flourish. Assuming he wasn't mad.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  -1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 01:42 pm
@Lightwizard,
Quote:
When philosophic reason is clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction, no subsequent revelation supported by prophecies or miracles can supersede it.


But it did. That's how we got out of caveman promiscuity after long practice. Everything was clear and certain by intuition or necessary induction in those days and there was no particular reason to change.

What mechanism would you have used to change from a million or more years of human animality? And effemm is BBQing his brisket to see if he can get back a sniff of it. Wearing eye protection and rubber gloves.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 01:46 pm
@Lightwizard,
Lightwizard wrote:
Pope Spendius XXX will now start foaming at the mouth.

Your marksmanship is superb.

T
K
O
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 02:08 pm
@Diest TKO,
Heck, a blind man could "hit' that target! LOL
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 03:49 pm
@Diest TKO,
Laughing
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 05:00 pm
Well-foaming at the mouth is more fun than shaking the last drop off.

For men I mean. I can only speak for men.
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 06:07 pm
The IDiots aren't trying desperately to get this heard before the USSC who in only a spattering of cases and decisions over the life of the US have ruled for having religious clubs, before or after school religious films for voluntary attendance on school property, and various other less impacting incidences not even close to the profound changes within actually classrooms studies to include ID or Creation "science." The judges read the direct interpretations by the Forefathers and authors of the Constitution in the Federalist Papers and other documents. They haven't gotten close and will not get any closer than the Dover School District case which was not taken for appeal. That established an emphatic precedent by a conservative Republican judge. It's now, "Send in the Clowns" -- "Don't bother, they're here" in the form of The Discovery Institute and other less ambitious follies. Give it up (or continue consuming plate fulls of crow).
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 06:40 pm
@Lightwizard,
That school district in Spencer, Iowa seems to be doing something very tricky, LW. I am going to be watching this. When I first heard about it I thought, "Dover Ain't Over."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 06:44 pm
@wandeljw,
wandel, All those challenges to change the science curriculum to include religion is "Dover." It smells the same, it looks the same, and it's being pushed by the "same" people.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 06:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Spencer, Iowa has an interesting twist on this, C.I. They claim to be protecting the "religious liberty" of public school students. And they are even trying to use Michael Behe's discredited book as recommended reading.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 07:18 pm
@wandeljw,
Any twist and turn that has to do with "religion" is all connected. They want to promote their religion in any way they can into public schools. Once they get their foot in the door, all hell will break loose, and every challenge they brought to introduce creationism and lost will be "born again."
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 07:19 pm
@wandeljw,
You mean "Kung Fu Panda?" It's about as comical -- pandas are smarter than most people. Michael Behe daft as a hen, laying his eggs all over the country?



Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jul, 2009 07:27 pm
@cicerone imposter,
No, they want their particular faction of Christian religion (usually not Catholic) taught in schools in inappropriate science classes. It's in philosophy and history classes where it is appropriately discussed along with Confucius, Islam, Hindu, Shinto, Buddhism and the rest. But no, they want a captive audience in a science class where it is inappropriate. Their little pea brains manage to come up with apparently smart tactics, but not smart enough.
0 Replies
 
 

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