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Latest Challenges to the Teaching of Evolution

 
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 10 May, 2009 04:18 pm
@farmerman,
He's looking for trouble and he's found the right place.
0 Replies
 
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Sun 10 May, 2009 04:23 pm
@farmerman,
It's quite amazing effemm how you suspend this much vaunted "reason" of your's just because you think he's on the same side as you.

Why don't you read wande's quote with a bit of care and critical analysis?

0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 11:38 am
The commentary below is not about anti-evolution, but it does illustrate another scheme to sneak religious education into public schools.

Quote:
In public schools, religion by any other name is still religion
(By Charles C. Haynes, First Amendment Center, 04.26.09)

The latest flashpoint in the never-ending conflict over religion in public schools is “Spirituality for Kids,” a program developed by a leader of the Kabbalah Centre International in Los Angeles.

According to the Los Angeles Times, the spirituality lessons are being taught in a number of Los Angeles elementary schools " much to the consternation of some parents and teachers who see the program as a Trojan horse for getting religion through the schoolhouse gate in violation of the First Amendment.

Defenders of Spirituality for Kids, including some L.A. school officials, characterize the class as being about ethics and tools for life, saying it has nothing to do with religion. Creators of the program describe it as “about re-awakening the inherent human spirit through lessons in cause and effect and activities based on universal human truths.”

Critics charge that this is nothing more than a thinly disguised way to promote a form of Kabbalah (broadly defined as a mystical interpretation of Hebrew Scriptures) taught by the Kabbalah Centre.

The Los Angeles Times reports that teachers using the program don’t mention Kabbalah, but they use terms consistent with the teachings of the Kabbalah Centre, telling children that “their actions cause reactions, and to allow their inner ‘light’ to shine by overcoming an internal ‘opponent’ who urges them to make bad decisions.”

Spirituality for Kids isn’t the first attempt to translate a faith-based teaching into a secular program that can be used in public schools. Thirty years ago, an appeals court ruled against the use of transcendental meditation techniques in public schools because the court saw the practice as inseparable from its religious underpinnings. In recent years, Narconon, an anti-drug initiative associated with the Church of Scientology, has stirred considerable controversy when used in California’s public schools.

It is entirely possible that some practices with religious roots " yoga, for example " might pass constitutional muster in public schools if sufficiently de-linked from religious teachings and language. But any program promising to foster “spiritual development” is bound to raise constitutional red flags.

Advocates of Spirituality for Kids argue that “spirituality” can be defined in nonreligious terms. But for First Amendment purposes, that’s a tough sell. A spiritual worldview claiming to offer “universal truths” through finding the “inner light” is likely to be viewed as a religious worldview by the courts.

Moreover, school endorsement of a universal, nonsectarian understanding of spiritual life will be seen by many parents and religious leaders as a direct challenge to their own faith traditions. For some traditions, such as Christianity and Islam, inner life or spiritual growth must be guided by revelations found in scripture. Otherwise, it is seen as dangerous and potentially demonic.

Pop star Madonna, an active proponent of Spirituality for Kids, unwittingly underscores the definitional dilemma when she says: “I like to draw a line between religion and spirituality. For me, the idea of God, or the idea of spirit, has nothing to do with religion. Religion is about separating people, and I don’t think that was ever the Creator’s intention.”

Madonna, of course, has every right to proclaim her belief in a God beyond religion. But her line between religion and spirituality can’t be constitutionally drawn by public school officials. Like other religious worldviews, spirituality (variously defined) may be discussed in the classroom, but only in the context of objective teaching about religions.

Spirituality for Kids does have another option that is legal under current law: It can become a community program offered to students during non-school hours without any involvement or sponsorship by school officials. In 2001, the Supreme Court upheld the right of the Good News Club, a Christian-based group that teaches values to kids, to use school facilities after school on the same basis as other community groups.

As for school officials, the spirit they need to consult on this question is the spirit of the First Amendment which guards against religious indoctrination in public education " by whatever name.
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 03:48 pm
@wandeljw,
wandeljw wrote:
Quote:
In public schools, religion by any other name is still religion
(By Charles C. Haynes, First Amendment Center, 04.26.09)

The latest flashpoint in the never-ending conflict over religion in public schools is “Spirituality for Kids,” a program developed by a leader of the Kabbalah Centre International in Los Angeles.

Maybe when schools can impress us all with the stellar performance of their students in the standard curriculum (Science and math and reading and writing and history, etc) then we might be able to spend some time on "spirituality"... but I doubt it.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 04:00 pm
@rosborne979,
This harkens back to the Good NEws Club case that was heard by the USSC in 1993(?).

Quote:
Good News Club v. Milford Central School, 533 U.S. 98 (2001), held that when a government operates a "limited public forum," it may not discriminate against speech that takes place within that forum on the basis of the viewpoint it expresses"in this case, against religious speech engaged in by an evangelical Christian club for children.


So, its a clear limit placed by"Milford" as to what is covered under the Establishment clause and supportive case history
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 05:43 pm
@farmerman,
The EC has nothing to do with the matter. You focus on it for obvious self-serving reasons. There are no rules in evolution.

Can't you get your act together. One minute you're an evolutionist and the next minute you are quoting rules.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 05:02 am
@spendius,
Quote:
The EC has nothing to do with the matter. You focus on it for obvious self-serving reasons.


Tell you what, you can act like you know of what you speak when it comes to Parliament, the queen, and ladies undies.
Please dont act like you know anything about the US and its legal and cultural systems. You are defiantly ignorant. Many have tried to explain things to you but you just leave in the earplugs and continue to act the fool.

Your comments about our First Amendment rights, are not sought, we are trying to exchange opinions from real information and actual knowledge.
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 02:07 pm
@farmerman,
I know plenty about the US and its legal and cultural systems. And I'm learning all the time.

My comment was based on your inconsistency in talking about evolution in terms of a rule bound system created artificially under a specific set of conditions which are so far from where you are now that they might as well be on another planet somewhere in the Milky Way. A designed system which you are bringing into an argument about a system you say is undesigned.

You'll end up with the kids as confused as you are.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 06:14 pm
@spendius,
Youre response is inconsistent with all the evidence presented to an objective observer.

Quote:
My comment was based on your inconsistency in talking about evolution in terms of a rule bound system created artificially under a specific set of conditions which are so far from where you are now that they might as well be on another planet somewhere in the Milky Way. A designed system which you are bringing into an argument about a system you say is undesigned
Your comment (to refresh your addled memory was that my quote and post had "nothing to do with the EStablishment Clause" of the US Constitution, except you called it the EC(No doubt in order to impress some that you have actually been paying attention to those of us who do know of what we are speaking).

How can a "rule bound artificiallly created system" be "undesigned". Those are your words so, trying to peg them onto me is fraud and illogical. I thought that youd be more careful at making such a HUGE gaff. Im used to more prosaic ones (sort of venial mistakes).

Your prefrontal cortex is in an ethanol soaked condition so Im even amazed that your were able to collect and present a series of phrases in one post, (No matter how idiotic they sound).

Why dont you just go to bed, Its probably well after 1AM over there and you need to let your body commence repairs to the superattenuation of THIQ. and other Aldehydes and quinones.

Since you are a believer, say a prayer and make believe that theres someone on the line who can make better sense of your blatherings.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 07:21 am
What I know about science can be put in into my little pinkie finger with room to spare. However Wink I have often wondered since evolution has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt to be correct in their theories, I mean the last I heard it was a theory, I don't' understand why it is taught in schools if other theories are not taught as well.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 08:04 am
@revel,
A scientific theory has to be backed up by real facts -- this has been repeated all over the evolution threads with links to scientific articles to back it up (some here outright refusing to read any of those articles, dismissing them as propaganda, which they are not). If you don't "know about science," how could you know there is any other scientific theory of the origin of everything around you, including you, other than evolution?

This isn't a trial of evolution to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt and then sentenced. There are no other theories which have any facts to back them up -- they have faked facts and quasi-scientific studies, but no demonstrable facts. If you didn't get the swine flu and die, you are now not a victim of evolution and free to believe what you want to believe. Evolution is a science and has viable studies available in classrooms where one can decide to reasonably accept it, reject it, or simply be ambivalent towards it. If you want to study Creationism (definitely not proven to the even the tiniest bit of doubt), go to church, and if you want to study ID, go to the highly paid executives at the Discovery Institute online, since even the Catholic theological schools do not teach it (but they do teach evolution). Buy their stuff, 'cause they need the money to pay that handful of executives.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 08:56 am
@revel,
revel wrote:

What I know about science can be put in into my little pinkie finger with room to spare. However Wink I have often wondered since evolution has not been proven beyond reasonable doubt to be correct in their theories, I mean the last I heard it was a theory, I don't' understand why it is taught in schools if other theories are not taught as well.


revel,
The term "theory" in science has different connotations than the way "theory" is used in ordinary conversation. In ordinary conversation, theory basically means "speculation". In science, theory is an extensively documented set of propositions about something observed from nature. The observations and predictions made by a scientific theory must be verifiable.

Darwin's theory of evolution is based on science. Alternative theories such as creationism and intelligent design are based on religion. Science limits itself to natural explanations. Creationism and intelligent design use explanations outside of the natural world (supernatural explanations).

Darwin spent twenty years collecting evidence before he published his theory. In the November 2004 issue of National Geographic Magazine, David Quammen gave a nice summary of the evidence put forth by Darwin:

Quote:
The evidence, as he presented it, mostly fell within four categories: biogeography, paleontology, embryology, and morphology. Biogeography is the study of the geographical distribution of living creatures"that is, which species inhabit which parts of the planet and why. Paleontology investigates extinct life-forms, as revealed in the fossil record. Embryology examines the revealing stages of development (echoing earlier stages of evolutionary history) that embryos pass through before birth or hatching; at a stretch, embryology also concerns the immature forms of animals that metamorphose, such as the larvae of insects. Morphology is the science of anatomical shape and design. Darwin devoted sizable sections of The Origin of Species to these categories.

Biogeography, for instance, offered a great pageant of peculiar facts and patterns. Anyone who considers the biogeographical data, Darwin wrote, must be struck by the mysterious clustering pattern among what he called "closely allied" species"that is, similar creatures sharing roughly the same body plan. Such closely allied species tend to be found on the same continent (several species of zebras in Africa) or within the same group of oceanic islands (dozens of species of honeycreepers in Hawaii, 13 species of Galápagos finch), despite their species-by-species preferences for different habitats, food sources, or conditions of climate. Adjacent areas of South America, Darwin noted, are occupied by two similar species of large, flightless birds (the rheas, Rhea americana and Pterocnemia pennata), not by ostriches as in Africa or emus as in Australia. South America also has agoutis and viscachas (small rodents) in terrestrial habitats, plus coypus and capybaras in the wetlands, not"as Darwin wrote"hares and rabbits in terrestrial habitats or beavers and muskrats in the wetlands. During his own youthful visit to the Galápagos, aboard the survey ship Beagle, Darwin himself had discovered three very similar forms of mockingbird, each on a different island.

Why should "closely allied" species inhabit neighboring patches of habitat? And why should similar habitat on different continents be occupied by species that aren't so closely allied? "We see in these facts some deep organic bond, prevailing throughout space and time," Darwin wrote. "This bond, on my theory, is simply inheritance." Similar species occur nearby in space because they have descended from common ancestors.

Paleontology reveals a similar clustering pattern in the dimension of time. The vertical column of geologic strata, laid down by sedimentary processes over the eons, lightly peppered with fossils, represents a tangible record showing which species lived when. Less ancient layers of rock lie atop more ancient ones (except where geologic forces have tipped or shuffled them), and likewise with the animal and plant fossils that the strata contain. What Darwin noticed about this record is that closely allied species tend to be found adjacent to one another in successive strata. One species endures for millions of years and then makes its last appearance in, say, the middle Eocene epoch; just above, a similar but not identical species replaces it. In North America, for example, a vaguely horselike creature known as Hyracotherium was succeeded by Orohippus, then Epihippus, then Mesohippus, which in turn were succeeded by a variety of horsey American critters. Some of them even galloped across the Bering land bridge into Asia, then onward to Europe and Africa. By five million years ago they had nearly all disappeared, leaving behind Dinohippus, which was succeeded by Equus, the modern genus of horse. Not all these fossil links had been unearthed in Darwin's day, but he captured the essence of the matter anyway. Again, were such sequences just coincidental? No, Darwin argued. Closely allied species succeed one another in time, as well as living nearby in space, because they're related through evolutionary descent.

Embryology too involved patterns that couldn't be explained by coincidence. Why does the embryo of a mammal pass through stages resembling stages of the embryo of a reptile? Why is one of the larval forms of a barnacle, before metamorphosis, so similar to the larval form of a shrimp? Why do the larvae of moths, flies, and beetles resemble one another more than any of them resemble their respective adults? Because, Darwin wrote, "the embryo is the animal in its less modified state" and that state "reveals the structure of its progenitor."

Morphology, his fourth category of evidence, was the "very soul" of natural history, according to Darwin. Even today it's on display in the layout and organization of any zoo. Here are the monkeys, there are the big cats, and in that building are the alligators and crocodiles. Birds in the aviary, fish in the aquarium. Living creatures can be easily sorted into a hierarchy of categories"not just species but genera, families, orders, whole kingdoms"based on which anatomical characters they share and which they don't.

All vertebrate animals have backbones. Among vertebrates, birds have feathers, whereas reptiles have scales. Mammals have fur and mammary glands, not feathers or scales. Among mammals, some have pouches in which they nurse their tiny young. Among these species, the marsupials, some have huge rear legs and strong tails by which they go hopping across miles of arid outback; we call them kangaroos. Bring in modern microscopic and molecular evidence, and you can trace the similarities still further back. All plants and fungi, as well as animals, have nuclei within their cells. All living organisms contain DNA and RNA (except some viruses with RNA only), two related forms of information-coding molecules.

Such a pattern of tiered resemblances"groups of similar species nested within broader groupings, and all descending from a single source"isn't naturally present among other collections of items. You won't find anything equivalent if you try to categorize rocks, or musical instruments, or jewelry. Why not? Because rock types and styles of jewelry don't reflect unbroken descent from common ancestors. Biological diversity does. The number of shared characteristics between any one species and another indicates how recently those two species have diverged from a shared lineage.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 09:02 am
@Lightwizard,
The whole thing was just an errant thought of mine which i have always thought about the whole issue of creationism and evolutions and what is taught in schools. Since I am ignorant of the real facts which have been repeated in threads; I'll just let it go. I have just always thought they were both theories so why not both be taught and that is the sum extent of thought I have put into it, nor do I desire to learn more or even really care if creationism or evolution is taught in schools or not. So, I'll just leave it as I should have done to start with.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 09:42 am
@revel,
Creationism may be a metaphysical theory but it doesn't qualify as a scientific theory and therefore has no place in a science classroom. It might vaguely qualify as a hypothesis, but in either case it's not scientific, it's superstition. The Catholic church has tried to pull out of the creationism debate by embracing evolution with a tentative hug and explaining it away just short of a form of Deism, which is actually a more believable concept of ID -- that some higher power set off the Big Bang and then just left it alone to evolve as it will. Their were more Deists than Christians in the ranks of the forefathers. Creationism is having a tough time holding up even in theological schools. It still makes no difference as everyone has the right, at least under our constitution, where no religion is official or entirely subsidized by government, and you can believe in a saucepan if you like.
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 10:00 am
@Lightwizard,
Whoops -- I used "their" for "there." Time for a second cup of coffee (it's just about 9:00 AM here). Wouldn't want the grammar/typo/spelling police to get their panties all wadded up.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 12:08 pm
@Lightwizard,
I have studied some subjects in the past; usually, if there are any controversy or alternative views other than the one being taught; the alternative views along with the background information is at least stated somewhere in the course of the study.

For instance once I studied all the theological views of Revelation and the particular source from which I studied offered one view but since there were other views, those views were listed along with the information containing in each differing view.

I just thought since there is an alternative theory (or view if theory is restricted to use only in scientific terms) that has been pretty accepted by a large amount of the population for longer than evolution has, it just makes sense to include creationism in the subject of evolution regardless if there are legitimate scientific facts to back up creationism or not. (there is not; creationism is based on faith and don't pretend to be anything else as far as I know) It's like those who oppose creationism being taught in schools want to ignore the large elephant in the room because they think to discuss creationism in schools is giving it more credence than it deserves and puts it in an undeserved equal footing with evolution. The elephant is still there whether you want to pretend it is not there or not. When students read and study evolution; most are always thinking of the creation story in the Bible the whole time. It seems to me; if the creation story is so implausible; it would do the side of those who oppose creationism being taught in schools more good if it was taught along side with evolution in order to expose how the two are in no way equal to each other.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 12:18 pm
@revel,
My knowledge about science can fit on my pinkie finger nail, but I do understand the definition of science. Science is based on objective observation that is repeated to prove its theory. Creationism only has "god did it." Which god becomes philosophy.
revel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 12:38 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Could not the whole theory of evolution be a theory that is basically a non sequitur argument? I mean they say, because this and this happened, this is what it is when that might not be the case at all, which is why it is all; at the end of the day, just a theory based on some circumstantial evidence.
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 12:43 pm
@revel,
Quote:
Could not the whole theory of evolution be a theory that is basically a non sequitur argument? I mean they say, because this and this happened, this is what it is when that might not be the case at all, which is why it is all; at the end of the day, just a theory based on some circumstantial evidence.


Like "just an atomic bomb from a theory based on circumstantial evidence".
The theory always follows up on the evidence. Evidence is compiled and interpreted.Interpretation of the evidence and the pattern it develops leads to the Theory.

0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 13 May, 2009 12:44 pm
@revel,
You obviously know little about evolution, and little about what theory means in science. The evidence for evolution is far better than circumstantial. A scientific theory needs to be effectively predictive, and it needs to be able to stand up to falsification. No one has ever successfully falsified the theory of evolution, and don't kid yourself, people are frantically attempting to do so all the time. The theory of evolution is just about the most successfully predictive theory that ever came down the scientific pike. Darwin and Wallace independently derived the theory from observations based on morphology. The theory has been confirmed from genetic research, and is now being confirmed at the level of microbiological biochemistry. It was implicit in the originally articulated theory that investigations at levels more detailed than just morphology would sustain the theory, and genetic research and microbiological biochemical research have done so.

You have a lot to learn, although i suspect your not interested in making the effort.
 

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