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Has nobody noticed?

 
 
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:19 pm
With all the talk of the presidential election this week, it's odd that nobody has latched on to the fact that the Bush administration has basically adopted Obama's plan for re-deployment from Iraq, in a stunning reversal of their earlier position.

Quote:
A Timetable By Any Other Name

By Dan Froomkin
Special to washingtonpost.com
Friday, August 22, 2008; 12:31 PM

In agreeing to pull U.S. combat troops out of Iraqi cities by June, and from the rest of the country by 2011, President Bush has apparently consented to precisely the kind of timetable that, when Democrats called for one, he dismissed as "setting a date for failure." Bush can call it an "aspirational goal" until he turns blue, but a timetable is exactly what it is, thank you very much.

Bush has repeatedly warned that politics and public opinion should have no role in the decision about when to leave Iraq, but apparently he just meant American politics and public opinion. A clear majority of Americans has favored a withdrawal timetable for several years now, putting anti-war Democrats in control of Congress in 2006.

Bush ignored them. But in the end, he bowed to the will of the Iraqis' elected representatives. After five and a half years of occupation, it was their turn to put a gun to Bush's head: The timetable was the price they demanded for agreeing to let American troops remain in the country beyond the expiration of a United Nations mandate in December.

Bush's acquiescence pulls the rug out from under Republican presidential candidate John McCain, whose position on Iraq was largely identical to Bush's -- pre-backflip. In some ways, the new timetable is even shorter than the one proposed by Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama.

So how is this not exactly what Bush had previously decried as an invitation to disaster? The White House line will be that the timetable is still somewhat conditional -- and only possible because the situation on the ground has improved.

But Bush's real accomplishment here is that he has stalled long enough that none of the deadlines he has now agreed to will be on his watch. This will all be somebody else's problem.

It is hypothetically possible that an American pullout on this timetable will leave behind a peaceful, democratic and pro-Western Iraq. One can certainly hope. But it seems more likely that the sectarian fissures opened by the U.S. invasion and subsequent occupation will once again explode into violence as soon as U.S. troops -- and U.S. payments -- stop creating an artificial sense of stability.

And then, of course, there's Bush's own histrionic prediction. "It makes no sense to tell the enemy when you plan to start withdrawing," he said last May. "All the terrorists would have to do is mark their calendars and gather their strength -- and begin plotting how to overthrow the government and take control of the country of Iraq. I believe setting a deadline for withdrawal would demoralize the Iraqi people, would encourage killers across the broader Middle East, and send a signal that America will not keep its commitments. Setting a deadline for withdrawal is setting a date for failure -- and that would be irresponsible."

So the next big question is this: How will Bush explain this turnaround when he finally emerges from his Crawford vacation? Will he try to downplay its significance? Or will he actually suggest that the job is nearly done in Iraq? That would be a bold move indeed, but not one with a lot of evidence to support it.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/blog/2008/08/22/BL2008082201762.html?hpid=opinionsbox1

This is a massive repudiation of the key rhetoric that both Bush and McCain have been using for years: that we cannot announce a withdrawal date. Well, we've now done this, just like Obama and other Dems have suggested we should do all along.

Will any Conservative or Republican here denounce this? After all, for years you have been denouncing us Liberals for suggesting this. And how does this not represent a validation of Obama's policies?

Cycloptichorn
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:27 pm
Yeah, what ever happened to their "cut and run" rhetoric? LOL
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  3  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:30 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Well, okay. A withdrawal based on a timetable, or achivement of certain goals is a good idea. Announcing that timetable continues to be a terrible idea. It not only announces our time of maximum vulnerability, it tells everyone just how long they need to hunker down before they can really get busy.

Careful, now Cyclo. Don't fall into the trap that every conservative has any faith in Bush, nor that everyone who hates him is automatically a liberal.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:33 pm
@roger,
That's the rhetoric that the Bush administration used from very early on on this war. Now, they've changed their tune, and it's okay to announce our departure.
DrewDad
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:35 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
"These colors don't run!"

... but they do back away slowly.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:35 pm
@roger,
I profoundly disagree with the notion that you have put out, that announcing the timetable is a mistake. I think that those who are 'hunkering down' will wait however long it takes whether we announce one or not. It isn't as if they are going to get bored and give up.

You also should realize that it's going to take most of a year to withdraw anyways; it isn't going to be a surprise, whether we announce it or not. The enemy will KNOW when we are leaving. So why not have a public timeline? There is no real downside to it and a significant political upside.

Cycloptichorn
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
You probably failed to notice that this is a position with which I continue to disagree.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 01:48 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo, I am crushed. Crushed, I say. You had to chose between who you were going to agree with, and you chose George Bush.

Well, if I were a Methodist planning to wipe out the Presbyterians, I would much prefer advance notice so I could properly prepared. I have no idea why I keep trying to apply western logic to the mideast.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 02:17 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

With all the talk of the presidential election this week, it's odd that nobody has latched on to the fact that the Bush administration has basically adopted Obama's plan for re-deployment from Iraq, in a stunning reversal of their earlier position.


They have no choice given the facts on the ground in Iraq (reduced violence) and the political climate. It's now a popular political platform in Iraq to want the Americans out and the US will have no legal mandate to stay in Iraq if the Iraqis don't let them. The Iraqis refused to agree to an extension of the mandate without the timetable.

They didn't change their minds, the situation changed and they had no choice but to accept it.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 04:00 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo is right; it doesn't matter whether we announce our departure or not. "Everybody" will know when we start pulling out our troops; it won't be a secret.
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 04:05 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
"Everybody" will know when we start pulling out our troops; it won't be a secret.


That's the way it's been forever... What's your point?
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 04:13 pm
@H2O MAN,
H2O MAN wrote:

Quote:
"Everybody" will know when we start pulling out our troops; it won't be a secret.


That's the way it's been forever... What's your point?


Yup. Bush has always been for a timetable for withdrawal. Everybody knows that.

And, on a somewhat related topic, we've always been at war with Eastasia. That's the way it's been forever.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 04:25 pm
From CBS News:


Bush: No Timetable For Iraq
ANNAPOLIS, Md., Nov. 30, 2005(CBS/AP) In what was billed as a major speech on Iraq, President Bush said Wednesday that Iraqi troops are increasingly taking the lead in battle but that "this will take time and patience."

But Mr. Bush refused again to set a timetable for a U.S. withdrawal, saying conditions in Iraq will dictate when American forces can come home. He said setting a deadline to pull out is "not a plan for victory."

Mr. Bush said the U.S. military presence in Iraq is set to change, by making fewer patrols and convoys, moving out of Iraqi cities and focusing more on specialized operations aimed at high-value terrorist targets.

"As Iraqi forces gain experience and the political process advances, we will be able to decrease our troop level in Iraq without losing our capability to defeat the terrorists," the president told a supportive audience at the U.S. Naval Academy.

But Mr. Bush was emphatic in stating that the decision on troop levels will be made by American commanders and "not by artificial timetables set by politicians in Washington," reports CBS News correspondent Mark Knoller.

Even before the president finished speaking, Senate Democratic Leader Harry Reid issued a statement claiming that Mr. Bush "recycled his tired rhetoric of 'stay the course' and once again missed an opportunity to lay out a real strategy for success in Iraq that will bring our troops safely home."
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 05:03 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I think Bush's basic plan was to WIN the conflict over there and THEN leave, which he appears to be in the process of doing. Oinkbamma's plan was to just walk away, **** the consequences.
Cycloptichorn
 
  0  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 05:25 pm
@gungasnake,
Oh, win? Is that what we did?

Geez, you guys can call it whatever makes you feel good - as long as we leave.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 05:31 pm
Nobody, even Bush, has not defined what "win in Iraq" means. The on-going problem is that McCain continues on the same path as Bush; we'll leave after we "win."
Not a Soccer Mom
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 05:40 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
LOL Hardball just replayed videos showing McClueless denouncing a timetable.

You can pretty much figure McCain peaked at 44% and unless events change. 44% doesn't win elections in a two party system.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 06:01 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Quote:
Nobody, even Bush, has not defined what "win in Iraq" means. The on-going problem is that McCain continues on the same path as Bush; we'll leave after we "win."


How about we've already won (despite the best efforts of the de-moKKKer-rats to prevent it) and we'r eleaving.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 06:33 pm
@gungasnake,
You're wrong! Show us where Obama would just "walk away?"
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 Aug, 2008 06:34 pm
@gungasnake,
"Already won what?" Please detail this "win" for us?

Is this why McCain says we're staying until we win?

0 Replies
 
 

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