34
   

BBB gets the message

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:35 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Yeah, any criticisms I have, boy, they aren't based on anything other then my personal vendetta against you. Right.

You don't have to have a separate person, just some empathy for folks who don't understand or don't like the system you've created.

Quote:

I've said variations of that. But quite frankly I'm not going to be upset at all if people leave. You guys are not customers and this kind of sense of entitlement that you display here is annoying.


Really? Who exactly ARE the customers?

I'll give you an example of the different ways to deal with people and their problems - in my 'request for timeline' thread, I outlined a bunch of stuff I was wondering about, and Craven said 'we're working on it.' And that was the end of my complaints about those items. In other threads, I've outlined concerns about stuff which you have responded to; instead of simply saying 'we're working on it,' you give reasons why people shouldn't feel the way they feel and think it's necessary to defend the system. You should just say 'we're working on it.'

Quote:


Huh? Saying to her that I think she misunderstood the message shows that I don't understand that people misunderstand the message?


Yes - because the problem isn't her misunderstanding anything, the problem is the message is not clearly presented by your side. Your post did not give that impression.

Cyclotptichorn
FreeDuck
 
  7  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:39 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Ok, let's ratchet things down a notch. Craven is paying attention. He is responding. You wouldn't want him NOT to respond, because then you'd feel that your concerns were being ignored. Cyclop, sometimes you get a hold of a chew toy and you just won't let go. Now you've both dug yourselves in. You've made him defensive and you won't be satisfied. This can't come out well.

Take a deep breath.
Cycloptichorn
 
  4  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:40 pm
@FreeDuck,
Okay, fair enough.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:43 pm
Just a thought; has it occured to anyone that voting down a thread that isn't going to get a response if just a minor waste of bandwidth. New posts come along as such a rate that a post without a response or vote is going to be buried within 30 minutes, regardless of voting.
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  4  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:44 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cycloptichorn wrote:

Really? Who exactly ARE the customers?


What customers? We make our money consulting for others and spend a lot of it on this site. This site is a net loss for me personally of over $24,000 in the last year.

What ******* customers Cyclo?

Quote:
I'll give you an example of the different ways to deal with people and their problems - in my 'request for timeline' thread, I outlined a bunch of stuff I was wondering about, and Craven said 'we're working on it.' And that was the end of my complaints about those items.


No it wasn't you proceeded to keep arguing and arguing and arguing.

And while we are giving examples, here's my examples of how you going around rating people down, telling them about it to try to get them pissed is a bad way to try to help the site. It seems to me like you are more interested in being right, and are willing to be an ass to prove that there will be asses.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

And as an example, I just did that. Your rep is now two points lower then it was before, for no reason at all other then the fact that I felt like lowering it. If I or some other user really felt like it, it's a trifling to click on 'posts' in your profile and downrate dozens or hundreds of posts.


Cycloptichorn wrote:

It's just an example, and it doesn't harm anyone, and after all, you keep saying that people shouldn't care about their rep, right? So what's the big deal?


Cycloptichorn wrote:
Nothing you wrote in your last post directly pertains to what I was writing, and I am forced to believe that you are being deliberately disingenuous. So I'm going to vote your posts down from now on every time I see them. As there is no ToS currently, and people shouldn't care, it shouldn't make a difference to you at all. Right?

There's also a value judgment associated with the thumbs up/down; it's on your profile screen.


We know there will be asses Cyclo, going around and doing this is not helpful and you are not being helpful in the slightest.
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:46 pm
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

Ok, let's ratchet things down a notch. Craven is paying attention. He is responding. You wouldn't want him NOT to respond, because then you'd feel that your concerns were being ignored. Cyclop, sometimes you get a hold of a chew toy and you just won't let go. Now you've both dug yourselves in. You've made him defensive and you won't be satisfied. This can't come out well.

Take a deep breath.


<points up>

What FreeDuck said...

Really.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:46 pm
I'm going to follow FD's advice, and pretend that you said 'we're working on it' instead of continuing to be confrontational.

Cycloptichorn
Robert Gentel
 
  7  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 12:54 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Robert Gentel wrote:

This site is a net loss for me personally of over $24,000 in the last year.


Make that more than $32,880 with the server costs also factored in. And this is the point. Yes, I know there could be more this and more that but there has to be more $$$ to do more that. And I can't spend any more.

That financial burden is something I can't take on forever. That's why there's a rush to get out the foundation of a site to fix the old one and not a perfect transition with all the details worked out.

That's why there's not "salespeople" and extra communication. For example, I wanted a site blog for updates but decided some bugs were where the resources had to go. This is not a big company with customers.

It's me and now Nick building it part time and doing our best. I already know things can be better but when you say we need to do this or that for our "customers" you are saying I need to spend more of my personal money on the site, and I'm spending all I can possibly afford right now.
rabel22
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:02 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
I am haveing one hell of a time on this site. I really loved posting and reading the posts on the old a2k but this site has passed me like a shot. Most of the stuff isent anything I was interested in before. The politics site was my favorite but from what I can see you have to read a mile of garbage to get in inch of something interesting. I like some others am not computer literate as some of you should realize. I was never able to post others comments in my posts or pictures or even other sites. This venue has driven me away also, not that most will care.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  4  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:03 pm
@Robert Gentel,
RG, we used to be able to contribute monthly through paypal to help with covering basic a2k operational costs. $10 a month or whatever people wanted to contribute and could afford. If this would be possible again, many people would volunteer. I would for sure. I'd rather pay a2k than cable tv. Maybe not paypal, but some other automated online system. Something like firstgiving.com or whatnot.
McGentrix
 
  5  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:05 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Thank you.

Change is scary but good. There are other places to go if the change is too much to bear.
0 Replies
 
Butrflynet
 
  4  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:11 pm
Craven,

In some aspects, Cyclo is right, the site does need a salesperson, but not in the sense that he mean it. What it needs is a tutor/tutorial in layperson language to teach people how to use the service.

That is what was missing from the rough and dirty launch of the new site, understandable since it was something that needed to be done before it was polished up for visitors to stop the hemmorage of money spent on the old site. We had to fend for ourselves and figure things out via trial and error.

Usually that tutorial writer would be Jespah but she's in the middle of learning her new job and doesn't have the time to devote to that at the moment. Craven and Nick don't yet have the time to do this because they're still busy constructing the thing.

Craven, would it help if a small group of us takes on the task of creating a tutorial for people to help get them over the culture shock and ease them through the learning curve? I know the site is still in a state of flux but we can get the basics done and add the caveat of it being under construction.

If you agree with this, do you want us to form the small group amongst ourselves or do you want folks to let you know their interest in doing this so you can select the folks you want to do this?

I was thinking we could start a thread and just collaborate on the content of the tutorial there. Additionally, I have QuickTime Pro and would be willing to try making a video with screenshots to give people a visual aide if someone wants to help with the screenshots and text for it.
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:13 pm
@dagmaraka,
dagmaraka wrote:

RG, we used to be able to contribute monthly through paypal to help with covering basic a2k operational costs. $10 a month or whatever people wanted to contribute and could afford. If this would be possible again, many people would volunteer. I would for sure. I'd rather pay a2k than cable tv. Maybe not paypal, but some other automated online system. Something like firstgiving.com or whatnot.

This is a certainty, Robert. I too would be happy to contribute and am as confident as Dag that a great many would. At least consider this option before any nuclear one's. Perhaps a ad-free version for "premium members" like many websites do? (If you insist on providing even more than you already do for nothing-- not necessary)(Frankly, the entertainment value many of us get would make contributing a no brainer)(Probably even Cyclo when he settles down and realizes what an ass he's been... and he will)
0 Replies
 
Izzie
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:14 pm
@dagmaraka,
dagmaraka wrote:

RG, we used to be able to contribute monthly through paypal to help with covering basic a2k operational costs. $10 a month or whatever people wanted to contribute and could afford. If this would be possible again, many people would volunteer. I would for sure. I'd rather pay a2k than cable tv. Maybe not paypal, but some other automated online system. Something like firstgiving.com or whatnot.



Yep...ditto Dag.

I think everyone knows Robert, how much you put into this...not know financial input but of you, and Nick now... and Jes and the mods etc.

A2K was a lifeline for me - and then became a whole heap more than that. I think there are a number of folk who would voluntarily contribute - I know that I would be lost without this site...

so... would you maybe consider this again? I don't speak for anyone else about contributing - many I know wouldn't feel the need to...I know for sure this site and the people here (even the ones I don't interact with - but still read their posts and follow their stories) are heckish important to me.

Maybe consider a?



(reposting....ugh....post disappeared!)
0 Replies
 
OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:17 pm
@Butrflynet,
You and many like Nimh, Soz, Thomas, etc. are already doing this. There need not be some official capacity. Just continue answering questions as you have been (instead of stirring the pot of ****, like some ungrateful folks have).
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:19 pm
@Butrflynet,
I've been building a help section that could certainly use all the help it can get. Organizing it in one thread is great, and jespah already started a good one for that:

http://able2know.org/topic/120955-1

I'll be using that to build the help pages once the first tweaks and fixes are done.
0 Replies
 
H2O MAN
 
  -3  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:20 pm
@Robert Gentel,
Change now and Hope for the best.


You can always throw other peoples money at it later...
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:24 pm
@Butrflynet,
BFly,

That IS the way that I meant it. That's a lot of what a salesperson does - familiarize clients with new products and help them get excited about the possibilities, while at the same time allaying their concerns about possible problems they might have.

Cycloptichorn
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:32 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
For what it's worth, I think this was attempted. I remember seeing many threads about the impending changes at the old A2K (not that I ever read them -- I'm a typical non-manual-reading user) and there are several new ones since the changeover. The problem is that many of us have been using A2K for several years now and do so on auto-pilot. Anything out of our typical usage patterns requires thinking, and we purposely program ourselves so that we won't have to think. Still it's a good exercise sometimes.
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Wed 20 Aug, 2008 01:34 pm
@FreeDuck,
Fair enough; but you had to go looking for such a thread, for there sure never was one in the politics forum.

I would guess that a large percentage, probably the majority of the users of the site, didn't see those threads. Because you are right, we get used to doing the same things over and over again and don't always look around for stuff like that.

Cycloptichorn
 

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