So....Will Biden Be VP?

@georgeob1,

Twice, and he got it neither time. That's good evidence that he wasn't the best candidate for the job either time; not that he's some sort of 'liability' to middle-of-the-road voters. He's not as good a candidate as either Hillary or Obama was this cycle, and never had the fund raising to drive the ticket. But that doesn't mean that he won't make a good #2.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Then we, at last, agree that we are dealing merely with differing opinions concerning what may come to pass -- something I clearly acknowledged right at the start.

Unfolding events will tell us who was right - though argument about it will likely continue then.

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@georgeob1,

Cool.

Obama's speech introducing Biden just now was no letdown at all - he created a powerful narrative for why he chose him. Now, let's see if Joe Biden can follow it up with another good speech; it will be important for him to do so.

Ccloptichorn

2 Replies

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

A persuasive and appealing post up until you wrote this;
occom bill wrote:
All together; I think it will prove a sufficiently strong ticket to overcome the latent bigotry that so few want to acknowledge.

You are here demonstrating precisely the same unfounded prejudgements of the intents and motives of others of which you accuse them.

You are being deliberately, well, ridiculous if a reference to an unknown quantity of latent racism residing in unspecified ‘others’ strikes you as an unfounded prejudgment. It is a well founded, beyond obvious, simple matter of fact.Your quibble is absurd… but that’s fodder for another thread anyway.

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@Cycloptichorn,

"Literally" was losing me but this quoting-McCain section rocks.

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@sozobe,

ooh, and this crucible section is great

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@Cycloptichorn,

cycloptichorn wrote:

I guess you will agree with me that, if McCain picks Romney, that he's reinforcing that it will be a super-rich, elite, effete team who has little to no experience with everyday life of normal Americans. That's the impression that a large group of voters will have, and that's dangerous for McCain. Right?

I agree that if McCain chooses Romney, such an argument will be made, and that it will affect some voters. My opinion is that such appeals to class warfare have not been particularly effective for Denocrats in the past 50 or so years, and that other issues are likely to be more important in voter choices. That, of course could change in the forthcoming election. However I believe the, so far muddled, Democrat stance on economic issues, particularly as they relate to energy policy have seriously diminished the potential of that argument. We shall see....

cycloptichorn wrote:

My overall point is that you and other Republicans would have been critical of ANY pick that he made. You are ideologically opposed to the Dem's positions, so your comments about 'organized interest groups' isn't even worth considering; ...

You are, in effect saying that anyone who is, for any political reason, opposed to Obama is, as a consequence, incapable of any useful or accurate insight into any question regarding his political strategy. You then - blissfully ignoring the obvious application of precisely the same absurd proposition to yourself - go on to criticize McCain's political strategy!!! Think about it !!

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@sozobe,

"A clear-eyed pragmatist who will get the job done."

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@sozobe,

OK, that was good!

I liked both parts of it, Obama's speech and Biden's.

Biden took a while to warm up but the whole second half or so was good. Some really good parts.

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@georgeob1,

Nah, you miss my point - that your opinions do not reflect those of America, though you seem to think they do. I know that my political opposition to McCain means that the average swing voter wouldn't listen to my decrying his 'special interest' pandering and flip-flops; I assert that neither your nor my argument is the sort that would turn voters off, as those in the middle likely see both parties equally guilty of this.

Quote:

. My opinion is that such appeals to class warfare have not been particularly effective for Denocrats in the past 50 or so years, and that other issues are likely to be more important in voter choices.

Well, it sure worked well for the Republicans against Kerry, didn't it? That's exactly how they painted him, and it was effective. It will be equally effective against McCain, especially given American's economic worries this cycle. Why would it be effective in against Kerry, but not McCain? McCain is exactly what the Conservative attack machine accused Kerry of being - a kept man, who relies upon others' hard work for his fortune, who has no idea what the struggles of life are like in terms of economic decisions, as he has NEVER had to face them.

Cycloptichorn

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@sozobe,

It was great - plenty of good sound bytes and strong statements.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

There was just a deaf person in line, and Obama signed "thank you" to him! Cool.

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@sozobe,

Obama said "thank you" in ASL? That is cool!

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@sozobe,

That is cool.

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@OCCOM BILL,

occom bill wrote:

You are being deliberately, well, ridiculous if a reference to an unknown quantity of latent racism residing in unspecified ‘others’ strikes you as an unfounded prejudgment. It is a well founded, beyond obvious, simple matter of fact.Your quibble is absurd… but that’s fodder for another thread anyway.

I think you fairly clearly implied that if Obama loses it will certainly be because of the said "latent racism". That is a bit more than "an unknown quantity", and I believe the assertion you made involves precisely the same prejudgement of the likely motivation of voters as that of which you accuse them. I don't think this distinction is at all a "quibble", and there is certainly nothing absurd in it. It is fairly easy to observe what others do, but a difficult and uncertain chore to know why they did it.

That there has been, and still is, racism among Americans of all colors is an observable fact. I don't argue that point. However, I don't believe the net (sic) effect of it is likely to be a particularly important issue in the forthcoming election -- except possibly as one of many potential "what if"s in an exceedingly close outcome. Moreover, I believe the enthusiasm for (and opposition to) Obama, coming as it does along generally predictable political, economic, and demographic lines, fairly clearly demonstrates the truth of that proposition.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

well that's hard to argue Very Happy

....and also made my point.

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@georgeob1,

Georgeob1 wrote:

My reference was to "those who fear that Obama is merely a gifted rhetorician... but otherwise merely a mouthpiece...", a description that I do believe applies to Joe Biden, and one which I believe large numbers of potential voters already have about him.

Interesting bit of random speculation.

To the effect that they think or don't think any of this, it certainly doesn't seem to have resulted in any widespread opinion about the man one way or another:

CBS News/New York Times Poll. Aug. 15-20, 2008.

Joe Biden -- Favorability Rating:

13% Favorable
12% Unfavorable
72% Undecided / Don't Know Enough

Gallup Poll. April 2-5, 2007.

Joe Biden -- Favorability Rating:

20% Favorable
25% Unfavorable
55% Never Heard of / Unsure

ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Aug. 19-22, 2008.

"If Obama chooses Delaware Senator Joe Biden as his vice presidential running mate, would that make you more likely to vote for Obama, less likely, or wouldn't it make any difference in your vote?"

13% More Likely
10% Less Likely
75% No Difference
3% Unsure

FOX News/Opinion Dynamics Poll. Aug. 19-20, 2008.

"Are you more or less likely to vote for Barack Obama for president if he picks Delaware Senator Joe Biden as his vice presidential running mate?"

27% More Likely
29% Less Likely
35% No Difference
9% Unsure (vol.)

However you slice it, this way or that way, no "large numbers of potential voters" just seem to have much of an opinion of the man.

A majority just doesnt have an opinion, and those that do split in neat equally-sized slices of those who think and respond favourably to him and those that dont.

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I'm glad to see Obama has chosen Biden to be our next president Laughing

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@nimh,

nimh wrote:

Interesting bit of random speculation.

To the effect that they think or don't think any of this, it certainly doesn't seem to have resulted in any widespread opinion about the man one way or another:
...
However you slice it, this way or that way, no "large numbers of potential voters" just seem to have much of an opinion of the man.

A majority just doesnt have an opinion, and those that do split in neat equally-sized slices of those who think and respond favourably to him and those that dont.

Perhaps the obvious explanation is, now that he is a VP candidate, many more of those who don't yet have clear opinions will form them in the natural process of choosing their candidate and party.

My not so "random" speculation had to do with how I believe many may will react as they develop their choices. It is indeed a speculation, and merely my opinion of which, among the several likely possibilities, may come to dominate the process for most voters.

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@H2O MAN,

Yeah, I winced at that. Captions are sometimes messed up so I asked my daughter, who was watching with me, "is that what he actually said?" and she said "yeah..." and then when I winced she said, "It's not a big deal though, don't worry. He's probably just so used to people introducing HIM that way." Smile

1 Reply

So....Will Biden Be VP?

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