14
   

So....Will Biden Be VP?

 
 
Thomas
 
  5  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:06 am
@blueveinedthrobber,
Quote:
Thomas I think Biden's foreign policy experience was paramount in the decision...

That's some consolation -- foreign policy experience is much needed in the federal government. But I find it scary that out of two presidential candidates and one vice presidential candidate, noone has any experience actually running something. Let's see who McCain picks. I hope not Lieberman.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:10 am
@Thomas,
Christ, I hope he DOES pick Lieberman. It would be a disaster for him. The Conservatives hate Lieberman on every other issue then Iraq.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  3  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:18 am
@Thomas,
the last 8 years we were run by people with executive experience.... how'd that work out? Wink
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:25 am
@blueveinedthrobber,
Damn straight. It's over-rated.

Cycloptichorn
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:30 am
@Thomas,
running the bureaucracy is what staff is for, Giving the direction is what POTUS does, with the help of his advisers. We never again want a micro manager like Carter, forever consumed with tiny details.
0 Replies
 
BumbleBeeBoogie
 
  0  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:31 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Just like the Republicans tried to create a Saint Ronald Reagan, the second worst president after George Hoover Bush.

BBB
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:39 am
@blueveinedthrobber,
blueveinedthrobber wrote:
Thomas I think Biden's foreign policy experience was paramount in the decision... Wink

Perhaps you need to brush up on your Molly Ivins. She'll tell you that governor of Texas is basically a ceremonial, ribbon cutting kind of job with no real executive responsibility. She'll also tell you that Bush's executive experience mainly consists of running businesses into the ground and getting bailed out by daddy's friends. Which closely parallels what's now happening with his presidency.

I wish American voters had judged George W. Bush on his executive experience and performance.
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:41 am
@Cycloptichorn,
[quote='Cycloptichorn"]I doubt that any choice would have been applauded by the Republicans and met with nervous laughter. I've been reading a lot of this sort of flash response, and I'm quite sure that the same criticisms of 'weak pick' would have gone out towards ANY candidate that Obama picked. Or, can you tell me who would have been a strong pick, and one that would have made you nervous?

Cycloptichorn [/quote]

I don't know what relevance your riff about "the Republicans .. nervous laughter ...and this sort of flash response", etc might have to my estimate of the effect an Obama-Biden slate might have on a large part of the electorate.

I noted the apparent political "logic" of the choice, and, as well, the perhaps undetected contradiction implicit in the similarities of the two figures with respect to certain qualities that are indeed likely to negatively resonate with a large number of voters. I believe the point is valid, though I can only guess at the fraction of voters who might be so affected by the conjunction.

Making this ovservation doesn't oblige me to offer a better alternative to Obama. That is his problem, and, as I understand it the deed is done anyway.

In any event, the Biden choice will indeed reinforce the opposition of those who fear that Obama is merely a gifted rhetorician, facile with words and talk, but otherwise merely a mouthpiece for the organized issue groups that dominate the Democrat party - just like Joe Biden. Will we soon begin to hear some more reconstituted speeches by Niel Kinock?
sozobe
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:43 am
@georgeob1,
George, are you seriously implying the Biden is without substance?
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:53 am
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:
That's some consolation -- foreign policy experience is much needed in the federal government. But I find it scary that out of two presidential candidates and one vice presidential candidate, noone has any experience actually running something. Let's see who McCain picks. I hope not Lieberman.
I agree with your central point here with respect to executive experience, Thomas. We can only extrapolate based on our impressions of the characters of the individuals involved and their likely effectiveness in such a role. I have my opinion on the matter, as likely do others here.

I do believe our Federal government does embody a good deal of "foreign policy experience" . Perhaps it is merely the policy itself that you don't like.

In many ways I have come to believe that the judgements of history will be much kinder to G.W. Bush that it will be to the contemporary political leaders in Europe who reviled him so much. The recent spectacle of European "reaction" to the continuing Russian intrusion in Georgia and their increasingly bullying efforts to control both the domestic energy resources and those in the former Soviet Empire, all so vitally important to Europe, gives the lie to those who suggest there is a wiser European alternative to our policies. I hope that Helmut Schroeder is still well paid for his services to Gazprom.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  3  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 11:55 am
@georgeob1,
Yeah, that was addressed by the 'project much?' comment. Who is going to think that Biden reinforces the aspects of Obama that they don't like? Republicans! You are correct that you don't know what percentage of the population will feel the way that you do, but do you honestly believe that the vast majority of these people weren't already against Obama?

I guess you will agree with me that, if McCain picks Romney, that he's reinforcing that it will be a super-rich, elite, effete team who has little to no experience with everyday life of normal Americans. That's the impression that a large group of voters will have, and that's dangerous for McCain. Right?

My overall point is that you and other Republicans would have been critical of ANY pick that he made. You are ideologically opposed to the Dem's positions, so your comments about 'organized interest groups' isn't even worth considering; I mean, let's talk about McCain selling himself out to Evangelicals (who he used to hate), the NRA (who he used to hate), the Club for Growth (who he used to hate), and worst of all, Rove. McCain once said that there was a special place in Hell for Rove, after what he did in the 200o campaign; now Rove is running his campaign through Steve Schmidt. Pathetic and highly revealing of how special interest groups have bought McCain's presidency. Wouldn't you agree?

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 12:03 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
George, are you seriously implying the Biden is without substance
I didn't mean to imply anything. I wrote what I wrote, and I mean exactly that.

Biden is certainly an intelligent man, and if that is what you mean here by "substance", then he certainly has it. He is also a notable windbag - even among a collection of senatorial windbags.

Obama has elements of this as well, but because he is a fresh face and a new political force, that possibility hasn't yet been so apparent. However, elements do begin to appear in the increasingly evident contrast between his often soaring rhetoric and the rather pedestrian, doctrinaire, party line quality of his specific proposals. The Biden selection offers the potential to magnify this growing, but as yet secondary, impression. To the extent this occurs it will do Obama no good at all. My bet is that it will become significant.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  3  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 12:08 pm
@georgeob1,
So, here:

georgeob1 wrote:
In any event, the Biden choice will indeed reinforce the opposition of those who fear that Obama is merely a gifted rhetorician, facile with words and talk, but otherwise merely a mouthpiece for the organized issue groups that dominate the Democrat party - just like Joe Biden. Will we soon begin to hear some more reconstituted speeches by Niel Kinock?


Are you saying that OTHERS will consider Biden to be "merely" a "gifted rhetorician, facile with words and talk, but otherwise merely a mouthpiece for the organized issue groups"? While you, personally, don't think he's "merely" that at all?
H2O MAN
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 12:18 pm
@Cycloptichorn,

I guess you will agree with me that these super-rich, elite Republican and Democrat
candidates have little to no experience with everyday life of normal Americans. Right?

Special interest groups will be pulling strings no matter who wins the presidency. Wouldn't you agree?
OCCOM BILL
 
  3  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 12:49 pm
@sozobe,
Biden is certainly a windbag of epic proportion. I'm having trouble naming another politician as enchanted by his own voice. His behavior at one of the confirmation hearings was off the charts egocentric.

That being said; he also speaks with a distinct, undeniable intelligence that is difficult not to respect. He does have the long term government experience that some (not me) are looking for. He has also shown himself NOT to be just another party-line repeater: He was among very few politicians who actually came up with a plan for Iraq. I didn't, or at least haven't yet, subscribe to his 3 State solution... but it raised my eyebrows when he first said it and made me go hmmmmm.

He certainly wasn't my first choice, but I have no thoughts of leaving camp over it either. I think he'll provide the experience some want on the ticket and will be able to hold his own in debate against anyone. Plus, he brought the Bear back into the fold...

All together; I think it will prove a sufficiently strong ticket to overcome the latent bigotry that so few want to acknowledge.
GObama!
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 12:50 pm
@H2O MAN,
As Biden and Obama are the two members of the senate with the least personal funds out of all of them (I might be off a little, but I'm pretty sure this is true) it's fair to say that they are rich, but not super-rich, like McCains' 100 million (or Hillary's for that matter), or Romney's fortune. They also have an advantage in that both of them have been poor in their life and know what it's like to make tough financial choices; McCain, not so much, Romney, please.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  3  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 12:55 pm
@sozobe,
sozobe wrote:
Are you saying that OTHERS will consider Biden to be "merely" a "gifted rhetorician, facile with words and talk, but otherwise merely a mouthpiece for the organized issue groups"? While you, personally, don't think he's "merely" that at all?
You appear to be persistent in trying to put words in my mouth. Again, I wrote.
Quote:
In any event, the Biden choice will indeed reinforce the opposition of those who fear that Obama is merely a gifted rhetorician, facile with words and talk, but otherwise merely a mouthpiece for the organized issue groups that dominate the Democrat party - just like Joe Biden.

My reference was to "those who fear that Obama is merely a gifted rhetorician... but otherwise merely a mouthpiece...", a description that I do believe applies to Joe Biden, and one which I believe large numbers of potential voters already have about him. More to the point, whatever weaknesses Obama may be said to have as a candidate, that surely is among the most prominent ones, and the Biden choice, despite the logic of complimentary qualities in other areas, does nothing to alleviate it. On that basis I have suggested it may well prove to have been an error.

I have stated my point with as much clarity and logic as I can provide. You are free to accept or reject it as you prefer. To answer your specific and repeated question, -- yes, I am among those "who fear that Obama is merely a gifted rhetorician, facile with words and talk, but otherwise merely a mouthpiece for the organized issue groups that dominate the Democrat party". However, that has little to do with my point.

Cyclo has suggested that whatever defect there may be in the choice, will serve only to reinforce the opposition of those already opposed to him: that its beneficial effects among undecided voters will outweigh this effect. Events may prove him right, but I doubt it. Biden has already established himself as a political liability among middle-of-the-road voters, and he reinforces what appears now to be Obama's central weakness as a candidate.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 12:57 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Biden has already established himself as a political liability among middle-of-the-road voters, and he reinforces what appears now to be Obama's central weakness as a candidate.


Really? Can you link to when he did that? Or is this more of that projection I spoke of earlier?

Cycloptichorn
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 01:03 pm
@OCCOM BILL,

A persuasive and appealing post up until you wrote this;
occom bill wrote:
All together; I think it will prove a sufficiently strong ticket to overcome the latent bigotry that so few want to acknowledge.


You are here demonstrating precisely the same unfounded prejudgements of the intents and motives of others of which you accuse them.
georgeob1
 
  2  
Reply Sat 23 Aug, 2008 01:08 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
What exactly do you mean by "projection" ? The obvious interpretation is both personally offensive and demonstraably wrong.

Do you believe that "links" are the exclusive proofs of assertions of fairly obvious judgements? How many times has Joe Biden sought the Democrat nomination? What were the outcomes?
 

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