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Sex Affairs and Public Figures

 
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2008 06:31 pm
Anyone watching the Villaraigosa story in LA? He seems to be coming up roses..
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2008 06:36 pm
Well osso, if the country would be "so puritan" why do 90 % of all porn movies originate in the U.S.?

All we need to do is push that hypocrisy aside and deal with life as
it happens.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2008 06:38 pm
Very much agreed with Osso re: lack of American homogeneity...

I think hypocrisy really sets off Americans too (though that takes me back to generalizations). I've seen quotes from Edwards re: Bill Clinton's infidelity a few places... lemme look it up... here:

Quote:
"I think this President has shown a remarkable disrespect for his office, for the moral dimensions of leadership, for his friends, for his wife, for his precious daughter. It is breathtaking to me the level to which that disrespect has risen," - John Edwards, on Bill Clinton, 1999.


I've also seen a lot about Edwards talking about how great his character is -- I think the word "authenticity" was used, can go back and find -- and that's why people should vote for him.

If a public figure refuses to buy into this stuff when he's not directly involved, and then gets caught doing something, I think there's more tolerance. Barney Frank is another one I think of who messed up (call boys operating out of his house or something) but because his persona was already pretty off the beaten path, it was something he could come back from.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2008 06:43 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
Well osso, if the country would be "so puritan" why do 90 % of all porn movies originate in the U.S.?


That's self explanatory to me, the allure of the forbidden, that feedback inhibition thing I was talking about. That might be a dead wrong analogy, but I like it for the moment. One feeds the other, an intense cycle with offshoots and feedbacks... Same with drugs, blah blah.

I've been reading the Frugal Traveler in Amsterdam this week in the NYT. Many commenters were despondent that he didn't go to the coffeeshops, and many amsterdamers, however you spell that, said, that's only a small part of who we are. Oh, well, I'll try being quiet for a while, cooking soup and need to attend it.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2008 06:53 pm
OK, I added the hotitalsausage to the large pot of veggies, so far so good. Cross your fingers I don't burn it, this is so interesting.


Agree entirely with Mushy on this -

"I care about character in a politician. I know plenty of other people who do.

It's just that the element of who-you-screw, sexual orientation, family arrangements and the like don't come into play in my own estimation of it (more like a footnote) in a politician. I almost expect there to be some deviancy in a politician privately - but that's private matters."

But then y'all know that already.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2008 09:42 pm
sozobe wrote:
Thomas gave a pretty thorough survey of various reactions in his opening post and I noticed that the "wow, that was dumb" reaction was missing, so I mentioned that since it's the largest component of my own (not that strong) reaction. That's a lot of what I'm seeing, in terms of various "fusses" being made. Not the only one, to be sure, but definitely a big component.

I hadn't thought about this component, so thanks for bringing it up. But in the context of what I'm getting at -- remember, I posted this to the "relationships and marriage" board -- this only begs the question. The move was dumb because public discourse in America makes such a big deal out of extramarital affairs. Why does public discourse in America make such a big deal out of extramarital affairs, given that public discourse in Europe doesn't and private discourse in America doesn't, as far as I could observe it in face-to-face interactions?
0 Replies
 
Robert Gentel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2008 10:02 pm
Thomas wrote:
Personally, face to face, I have generally found Americans less judgmental, less puritanical, more generous, and more tolerant than the Germans I know.


America is a very polar culture. Sure there are people who are more sexually liberal than your average German but there are also a lot who are a lot more uptight.

You have your Homers but you also have your Ned Flanders. There are a lot of Ned Flanders in the US.

ehBeth wrote:

It's a very American thing, and it's quite a recent thing, so ... why?


I agree that it's a lot more common now than in the past.

dlowan wrote:

Is that because the media used to maintain silence?

Or because the reaction was different?


Whatever the reason, the media certainly treated it a lot differently. All sportswriters knew of Babe Ruth's vices but didn't write about them. They wrote about him on the field and largely stayed out of his private life.

At some point they stopped airbrushing public figures and started slinging dirt.

I'll be damned if I know why as well.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Aug, 2008 10:08 pm
ehBeth wrote:
ossobuco wrote:
Media have some fault, but the media is pretty much a response group to what sells.


ok, so why are Americans buying something different?

as mushypancakes posted earlier, it'd be hard for a paper here to get anyone to care about what politicians do in their personal lives ... we've got a reasonable number of 'out' politicians, their affairs are occasionally noted in passing - but not much cared about. Unusual family situations might get coverage, but in a sorta good way. The politician who was part of an assisted suicide was very much seen as a good guy.

It's like living on a different planet, not on the same continent, when I watch American news.

I just about blew a gasket yesterday when Wolf Blitzer was droning on and on and on and on and on about Edwards. What about people being killed in Georgia? Why didn't that catch the American public/media's eye/ear?

Seems perverse to me.


Argues for the validity of "American exceptionism" doesn't it?? Now whether this is in the sense that America is better than the continent or rather that America is a bit touched I'll leave that for you to decide.
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 07:56 am
Thomas wrote:
Why does public discourse in America make such a big deal out of extramarital affairs, given that public discourse in Europe doesn't and private discourse in America doesn't, as far as I could observe it in face-to-face interactions?


Yep, understood. Most of my posts here so far have in fact been speculating on that. Speculating though, no definitive answers.

I do think that there are many many factors at play rather than one single overarching one (as much as I like my "character" idea).
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Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 08:20 am
(hello, lover - hello, lover)

Have you noticed, that people are still having sex. all the denouncement had absolutely no effect. parents and counselors constantly scorn them. but people are still having sex and nothing seems to stop them.

Do you realize, that people are still having sex, they've been told not to, perhaps they are perplexed. when you see them holding hands they're making future plans to engage in the activity, do you understand?

People are still having sex, lust keeps on lurking. nothing makes them stop, this aids thing's not working.

People are still having sex...
People are still having sex...
People are still having sex...

Forever positive
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 08:43 am
Bi-Polar Bear wrote:
(hello, lover - hello, lover)

Have you noticed, that people are still having sex. all the denouncement had absolutely no effect. parents and counselors constantly scorn them. but people are still having sex and nothing seems to stop them.

Do you realize, that people are still having sex, they've been told not to, perhaps they are perplexed. when you see them holding hands they're making future plans to engage in the activity, do you understand?

People are still having sex, lust keeps on lurking. nothing makes them stop, this aids thing's not working.

People are still having sex...
People are still having sex...
People are still having sex...

Forever positive


hey! im not, godamnit.....

i got laid like 4 times this year.... wtf!!?!?!?!?!?!
0 Replies
 
Bi-Polar Bear
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 08:53 am
I'm not sure I believe you...let's see the receipts....
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Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 09:06 am
sozobe wrote:
I think hypocrisy really sets off Americans too (though that takes me back to generalizations).

I was wondering how much of a factor hypocrisy is. One data point that supports you is that Obama's past drug use almost never comes up in campaigns -- probably because he admitted it. With this in mind, how far do you think an out of the closet swinger or polyamorist would get in an American election?
0 Replies
 
sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 09:27 am
Depends on the election. Jesse Ventura and Arnold Schwarzenegger each had pretty unconventional backgrounds but were elected governors of Minnesota and California, respectively. I think Schwarzenegger would have a fighting chance at the presidency if he were eligible.

The PAST transgressions that are admitted to and learned from get a lot more tolerance (in some cases can even help I think, as with Bush and drinking) than current transgressive lifestyles, though.

Generally I think the lesser the position, the higher the probability. Goes back to regional stuff too -- I think the congressperson for the Haight-Ashbury district in San Francisco could get away with a wilder personal life than someone representing a rural Mississippi district, for example. (This is obvious.)
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 11:25 am
cj wrote :

Quote:
We (Germany) used to have a politician who was caught with some
hookers in NYC. The only reason it became public was that the girls of the
night had stolen his wallet.


i sure remember that Laughing ! it was given EXTENSIVE coverage by the german press - and germany has a lot of magazines that thrive on "celeb" stories of all kinds .
imo germans - and many europeans in general - look at these stories , perhaps they are even horrified by these stories temporarily , but they also seem to feel/think : "could have happened - or even did happen - to me " , and leave it at that .
do some americans perhaps feel that some "almighty" is watching them and that if they do not strongly condemn such action , they may be punished in their afterlife ?

makes me think of some of those "evangelists" who threaten people with fire and brimstone for the slightest aberration , only to be discovered in some pretty "perverse" situations themselves . they sure can wail and cry , and people seem to forgive them .
is it the wailing and crying that some people are looking for ?
i guess it makes for good theatre .
hbg
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 11:47 am
hamburger wrote:
makes me think of some of those "evangelists" who threaten people with fire and brimstone for the slightest aberration , only to be discovered in some pretty "perverse" situations themselves . they sure can wail and cry , and people seem to forgive them .


Well, they asked the Lord for forgiveness and it was granted (so they say)
and that was the end of it! Wink

What gets to me is the hypocrisy of the so called puritans. Look at Bush
who is vehemently against abortion, yet he doesn't blink with an eye to
send these very young souls to get killed in Iraq.

As I recall, one of the profound puritans, Strom Thurmond, had a child
out of wedlock with one of his black servants. Yes, yes, Thurmond was old
and his time was a different one, unfortunately, puritans haven't changed since!

Once America realizes that we are all "sinners" without exception, then
we've made a step in the right direction.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 03:52 pm
sozobe wrote:
2.) For whatever combination of reasons, it is a Very Big Deal for an American politician to have an affair.

It was extremely idiotic for him to have an affair in the current American political climate. I agree that the climate is itself idiotic. But he's lived through Bill Clinton and the rest of it, he KNOWS that it was career-destroyingly dangerous to have an affair, and he did it anyway. And he ran for president after doing it.

Imagine if he'd won the nomination and this came out now. The chaos!

It was extremely irresponsible for him to have taken that chance, and I do hold that against him. This aspect actually upsets me more than the affair per se.

Yep. Thats the part that gets me too. Their marriage is their marriage, if Elizabeth has made her peace with it who am I to judge. But someone who could, recklessly or narcissistically, risk the fate of his party and, eventually, his country like that -- who could run to be the Democratic nominee in a unique year knowing that this could come out any moment and all but ruin the Democrats' chances and hand the Presidency to John McCain -- that kind of egocentrist recklessness, you dont want in the White House.

Then again, I'm not American, and this part doesnt seem the focus of the media and public scandal that you're puzzled about, Thomas, so not sure how relevant it is.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 04:46 pm
sozobe wrote:
When I think about "why," the first thing that comes to mind is "character." That seems like a uniquely American preoccupation when it comes to public figures. I think other cultures are more likely to judge a politician on what laws he or she passes, what effect he or she has on society, what he or she does in the capacity of politician.

If that's true (it's a spare though, I dunno if it is), the question is still WHY is that a uniquely American preoccupation? Maybe something to do with frontier, pioneers, Horatio Alger -- the American story, the American narrative, who we think we are as a people. Our character. I think politicians are supposed to demonstrate a certain fundamentally American character... blame Teddy Roosevelt, blame JFK, blame MLK even ("not by the color of their skin but the content of their character").

And if that general premise is true -- that character is uniquely important -- then it's hard to draw lines. He's a good guy -- except that he's a louse to his wife. (As mentioned here, I think a guy could be considered both basically good and lousy to his wife more easily in the recent past than now.) Vs. (non-American view): He's an effective politician. He gets stuff done. (Who cares what he's doing in his private life, it's not pertinent to his job.)


This is a great post, which I feel was brushed past a bit on the page or two after -- and it resonates hugely with me.

Lemme ramble for a while to maybe make clear what I mean.

I'm from a country where people overwhelmingly vote on the basis of politics. Ideology is too big a word maybe, but you're leftwing or Catholic or liberal (read: free market, entrepreneur or wealthy), or Protestant or centrist... and you vote accordingly.

For sure, we have a lot more "floating voters" than, say, 10 years ago in the Netherlands, far more than 25 years ago; and the completely "pillarised" society from the early and mid-20th century, in which people basically didnt interact with other people outside their religious or ideological pillar, are long gone. And thanks to the superficiality of media coverage and the ever smaller ideological differences, more and more people also do seem to vote on the basis of superficialities, like whether they like someone.

But even with such developments trending up, the overwhelmingly majority still votes on the basis of -- if not quite the intricacy of policy -- political orientation. There's a lot of electoral volatility as people flit from party to party, but the proportions between the different currents are very stable. Because in the end, you vote for the guy you agree with. End of story.

It's not much different here in Hungary, where society seems to be split in two social tribes, which split the political landscape in two and probably would no matter who or what the party leaders are. You dont particularly vote for Gyurcsany, if you vote MSzP - you vote for that party because you're part of the socialist/postcommunist/leftwing tribe. And popular though Viktor Orban may be, people who vote for his conservative Fidesz party vote for Fidesz, and would mostly vote for it no matter who led it, short of the guy being a homocidal rapist.

From that perspective, US politics is maddening. Party ties are very weak, and apart from minority constituencies like the Religious Right, even ideological loyalties are comparatively shaky. Less than they used to be, there's been a lot of "sorting", but still you can have conservatives voting for a Dem (see Mysteryman with Evan Bayh), or moderates voting for a radical Republican (Reagan winning in a landslide).

You got people voting for someone, into a position of executive power so vast in its authority we Europeans have trouble even contemplating it, whom they dont agree with on a whole bunch of things ... because he's a Good Person. Or because they Trust Him. You have someone like O'Bill mad for Obama, for example. Charisma plays a bigger role and party affinity a smaller one, and whole swathes of muddily centrist voters in the end just make an assessment of what kind of person the guy is, and vote purely or dominantly on that.

Taking all that into account, I'm not so surprised that any personal scandal then gets blown up too -- now that there's a plethora of TV stations and internet sites that dont hesitate on much any subject in place to amplify it.

I mean, if in the end, you see your voting duty not as seeking out the person who most agrees with your beliefs and/or is most likely to successfully act on them, but as seeking out the person who's most trustworthy, reliable, strong, whatever -- then well, you're gonna use what you can get. And that's the candidate's personal life, and everything in it.

In that sense I see the incomparably greater fascination/obsession with the life story and "character" of the candidate in the US as an expression of a far going de-politicisation, funny as that may sound after 8 years of Bush. Sure, partisan passion now runs high among both parties' activist base, but outside the religious right and the rarefied elite spheres of the WSJ and Weekly Standard, and outside the liberal academia and the anti-war activist base, there's just a void of ideology.

In as far as there is a fundamental clash of beliefs anyway, it's the culture wars -- which again centre highly on individual, moralistic notions rather than ideological, economical ones: abortion, guns.

So even aside from household sensationalism, the whole focus of political culture pulls the audience's attention to, say, politician's X extramarital affair (rare peek at the man behind the mask!) rather than, say, the outrageous mistake he made about health care policy (he'll have managers to sort that out).

Still riffing about this theme, there's another aspect pegging into this. You have this media sphere where politicians move around in divisions of PR armor, each with their legion of spinners replacing objective experts as the TV's pundits, and all of them rarely challenged critically by journalists beyond gotcha questions. Nothing is improvised, leaving very litte authenticity out there to observe. So you have an electorate which desperately seeks a sense of who these people really are, what their souls are like, basically; and a virtual media reality where no authenticity that can provide any reliable check on that exists. In that contest, breaking scandals, things that were meant to stay a secret but blow up unintentionally, then become one of the very few ways in which the public can "catch" a sense of , ahh so thats who he really is beneath the veneer!

Anyway, that's how Soz's post really resonated with me - the person- and personality-focused discourse of US politics is maddening enough for someone who comes from a largely party- and ideology-focused discourse. Other than that, of course, I think you have to look at the media, media culture, the slash and burn of commercial competition for attention, etc; and, on a causally related note, at the increasingly exhibitionist culture channeled through it, in which nothing is kept private, and nothing is considered off-limits. (When it comes to people's private lives, of course, secretive policies are a different matter). Well, the Big Brother era, etc etc. Presidents in previous generations were no less caddish, but the media didnt ask, etc. All the obvious points. May all be more important than the above riff, but that one's definitely an element.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 06:38 pm
Blimey, Nimh...you said a mouthful!!!


You're right...mainly we vote on politics.


But...this just begs the question...again, why the difference?


And....I am wondering if the US still largely votes on politics, but the ATTACKS on those from the other side FOCUS on character?


Thus...if your candidate screws around, for instance, that's somehow ok....if the other side's candidate does the same thing......it unleashes hellfire, damnation and the end of the apple pie?
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Aug, 2008 06:49 pm
dlowan wrote:
Blimey, Nimh...you said a mouthful!!!

Sorry... short takes more time than long... I just let myself ramble.
0 Replies
 
 

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