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Thu 17 Jul, 2008 05:13 pm
My best friend and I are back for the summer from university, lets say my friend is called Y.
Currently, we are staying with another friend, lets call her X.
In previous times, our friend X has always been the centre of male attention, and this last time we've all met, along with many of our other, male, friends me and my best friend Y have started to realise why perhaps.
Our friend X is somewhat traditional, she only sleeps with men she is totally sure she likes, she is doing quite a conventional (or rather uncreative) degree, and has a lovely, girly personality. She definitely seems to act her place.
My friend Y and I, although we admire and get on extrememly well with X, are slightly different. We aren't conventional, we live a rather haphazard lifestyle in which we do as we please. We sleep with who we want, we're quite liberal, very arty, and are extremely successful (I'm on a scholarship, she's done the best in her year with her portfolio at a top university) and we are totally happy with our lives and decisions.
Whilst we've been down at our hometown for the summer, we came upon a 'theory' (not much of one, really) that our male friends prefer our other friend, X, because she acts how they expect her to. She may flirt, be giggle rather than laugh, be content with what she has, and act sweetly. In contrast we may present a challenge, in strength of opinion and witt, in our achievements and what we are also willing to do, in our carefree attitudes and our determinedness.
X has always been 'abused' by controlling men.
Is there a possibility that this type of personality attracts men such as this?
I don't want to generalise. Is there any possibility that there is a correlation with the degree of a man's conservative values, or arrogance and the type of woman they go for? Someone who won't rise to the bait, someone they can feel they 'protect' and who won't answer back?
Both male and female answers will be appreciated.
I may be wrong, please shed any light you can.
people who always find themselves with abusive people, just as those who always find themselves with those who have been abused, find what they seek. The PC conversation with friend X would go "you always attract abusers into your life, you should find out what signals that you give off to attract them and change it". Some part of friend X, probably some unconscious part, wants to be taken by the hand and directed, that which you call abuse. She attracts men who want a woman like that, for what ever reason, and there are many reasons.
As for why she attracts men in general and you don't: it has been said by smart and successful women so often "I can't find men who will go after me, who are not intimidated by me" that such an utterance is cliche. Most girls learn this very early, at least by middle school, which is why you see so many teen girls playing dumb around the boys. Why do good men rarely want smart successful women even when they are super hot and know how to have fun??? I am not sure, but it does have to do with the fact that many men have trouble feeling good about themselves when they are with smart successful women.
Re: Challenging women.
The Pentacle Queen wrote:X has always been 'abused' by controlling men.
Is there a possibility that this type of personality attracts men such as this?
Abusers are very good at finding victims.
It's like they went to training camps. So many of the behaviors are just alike.
Insecure men are put off by strong women. They find us threatening because their egos are so fragile that they must be "in charge" to feel important. On the other hand, control is not important to secure men. They have matured past this point and prefer strong women. They are looking for an equal.
Now, which kind of man do you want?
Well explained question, Queen.
I think it is rather human to have a (push/need) to dominate those you feel are dumb, clueless, at any given time... even between heterosexual women.
Or a need to shelter them, which can be the other side of the same coin.
The ego seems to be a racehorse.
Eva said: Insecure men are put off by strong women
I would add that young men are afraid of strong women because they are just developing their own psyche in college (remember that boys lag behind girls in maturity 9 - 18 months for a VERY long time!)
I'd say she's acting age appropriate; you other two may need to find older men to date. They can give you more of a challenge.
I tried to add, but too late..
that a little more time on the earth gives clues that wisdom can come from many sources and smartypants do not own it. Ears up...
It is possible that X is more likable than PQ and Y, and that X is attracted to controlling men - and she's got her pick of the fellas.
Eva wrote:Insecure men are put off by strong women. They find us threatening because their egos are so fragile that they must be "in charge" to feel important. On the other hand, control is not important to secure men. They have matured past this point and prefer strong women. They are looking for an equal.
Now, which kind of man do you want?
I agree that it does get easier to find good men latter in life, or alternately to find an older man rather than a younger man (assuming that the woman is good looking).
I figure X, PQ, and Y will all have matters to go through related in part to who they are.
I'll agree it's tricky to be a bright woman, a crown I've qualified for sometimes and failed dismally at in others, slip sliding, and never some aim.
But I have to yawn. It was trickier when I was twenty, in 1961.
Y'all are spoiled brats..
Insecurity in men does sometimes coincide with youth and immaturity. But not always.
I remember having two highschool boyfriends who were self-confident types. They were both proud of having an independent girlfriend with a mind of her own. They had accomplishments of their own and didn't feel any particular need to compete.
And some of the most controlling, abusive men I've known have been middle-aged. This type of behavior is not something men "naturally grow out of."
So yes, PQ, it will get easier to find strong, secure men who appreciate the same qualities in a woman. But there will always be insecure, controlling men who look for women they can dominate.
It's a shame, and I don't know who to be angry at.
I do feel angry at 'the men', but then, I can't be cross at human nature, and the knowledge that the role they play is because of their insecurities comforts me, as mentally I can 'rise above it.'
The guys I've met at university, my two male flatmates in particular are much more mature. My first post may have appeared somewhat aggressive, but only in defence. I'm after equality, and thats what has been so beautiful about the friendships I have with the people I have met more recently.
This makes it harder to return here, and I can see a possible argument emerging with one of my friends who believes women should act in a more 'traditional' way.
The issue of respect comes up a lot. Always the issue of sleeping with people casually, which I've done a little bit, and I see nothing wrong with, as the arrangement has always been mutual. Yet somehow this is seen as me 'not respecting myself' and being 'used.' Well I don't feel used. Why am I the one to feel used? Why shouldn't the masculine party feel used?
I'm really riled up, but I'm trying to be careful in what I say or do, because I really always try to come from an understanding viewpoint, and I don't believe differences of opinion are worth loosing friends over.
Os, if ever you have the time, I would be really interested to know (I mean I can guess at the obvious parts) the REAL difference between the opportunities you had in your time, and what 20 year olds have now. I can understand you had much more of a fight than I have, but there's still some way to go and I won't forsake what I want.
Hello,
Have you thought that your friend X appeals to genetic traits in men?
Men genetically have a need to feel 'wanted' / to be 'needed'. I'm not talking about in a love/feeling way, but in a usefulness/protector/provider way.
Strongly Independent women do not 'need' the man in the way he wants to be needed. Smart independent women, the same. The type of men that these women end up with are powerful/rich/self assured...and that's because they can convince themselves that they are needed (because they have x,y and/or z)...or for the smart ones, other academics because their intelligence being equal, it can be viewed as a equal/neutral trait, which doesn't affect the ability to feel needed.
PQ's friend X appears to appeal to this side of men.
You don't have to be dumb...you just have to allow mens instincts to be activated.
I think the "traditional" thing may have layers of culture/class given PQ's location. I lived in London for a bit in the early '90s and the boyfriend of one of the people I lived with was, to me, an absolute anachronism. I assumed that the (horrifying) things he said were ironic or something at first, and laughed at them -- which made him furious. That was crass, impolite, American.
Once I established he was actually serious, I laughed harder.
He really couldn't stand me (and that was mutual).
He was horrible but also the reaction of other (British) people to him was quite unperturbed. He was of a higher class, that's what they're like, his uncle was some count or whatever, to be expected. They were just grateful he deigned to socialize with them, pretty much.
Bleh.
So that's something that occurs, though I don't know if it applies or not. There are certainly insufferable boors in every culture (and I take ehBeth's point).
PQ, watch out, I may do that, or probably have.
On my y'er all brats post, I know you know I was kidding, with some history behind the kidding.
Short comment - you will never agree with all your friends and don't even aim for it. I see you getting sturdier as you post here.
ossobuco wrote:I figure X, PQ, and Y will all have matters to go through related in part to who they are.
I'll agree it's tricky to be a bright woman, a crown I've qualified for sometimes and failed dismally at in others, slip sliding, and never some aim.
But I have to yawn. It was trickier when I was twenty, in 1961.
Y'all are spoiled brats..
No, it is tricky to show men that you are bright, those who pretend to be stupid have no worries.
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