The History Revisionists and Holocaust Deniers

Walter

Wilhelm Gustloff wasn't bombed but torpedoed by a Soviet submarine.

You may try www.zdf.de and you will find there several titles of German books about bombings. Nonexisting books - according to you. Any German could have bought academic texts. He/she preferred a new car or stereo set - it was his/her choice.

You come probably from Western Germany. I have visited the Communist Germany several times and there existed massive propaganda against the USA and the UK - pictures and slides of pre-war Dresden, things destroyed in 1945 - books, bootles. Was it censored after the unification?

The Luftwaffe bombed a small Polish city of Wielun and killed more than 1000 civilians during first two hours of war. Joerg Friedrich has 'forgotten' to mention Wielun. Is he credible?


Jerzy, Poland

Jerzy

Wellcome to A2K!

Sorry, when I really mixed up 'bombing' and 'torpedoing'.

Certainly there are lots of books about bombing - every bombed town and city has at least one.
But it's the first time that a historian made a greater study about it. (This is said by historians, anyway.)

The book (and the tv documentary, which was broadcasted by ZDF yesterday) is about the bombing of German towns and cities.
So Friedrich didn't forget it but followed his theme.

He is said to be credible, mostly because of his former studies.
In the book itself, nothing seems to be 'wrong', all can be proved.

However, if he or the book hadn't got such "media reports" in foreign countries, no one would have noticed it, besides some historians, like the former publications of Friedrich.

Walter,

I have read that parts of the "Brand" had been published in a tabloid ("Bild Zeitung").
So I understand that the author adresses uneducated Germans.
The author is totally uncredible for me, because he omits the contxt -
the air war in Poland 1939.

I ahve just read the list of Wansee conference participants. One of them died during a bombing of Berlin. Klemperer has been saved by the destruction of Dresden.

The Nazis were able to disperse many civilians into villages. Did they do it?

Regards,
Jerzy

Jerzy

The book is published at a -normally- well reputated, but a little bit conservative publishing house.

The sub-title of the book is "Deutschland im Bombenkrieg 1940-1945" (Germany in the bomb war 1940 -1945"), so actually Poland isn't a theme of it. (And it's not about Germans doing the bombing but Germany detroyed by bombs - the different air wars are neither a theme.)

I don't really understand the last part of your response.
I am born in a small town, which was just (severely) bombed twice: both times hundreds of refugees (from the Ruhrdistrict) died in trains. People weren't forced to leave the towns, they went volunatrily.

Klemperer wasn't a participant at Wannsee at all.
You can see all participants and their biography here:
http://www.ghwk.de/engl/catalog/cateng6.htm

Walter

I believe that any historical event should be presented in its context.
There was a sequence of events - Guernica, Wielun, Sulejow,
Battle of Britain, German mass murders in Eastern Europe.
The author manipulates starting with the 1940.
I'm fully aware of it. That manipulation gives the power to accuse the Allies.
The expelled do the same - their history starts in 1945.
The life was beautiful in our village, the Reda Army/ Poles/ Czechs
came and started to rape and kill without any reason.

I know who was Klemperer. He was probably saved by the bombs like several other Jews. If we discuss the terrible side of the air war,
let's remeber the killed Nazis and saved Jews.

The Brits transported many children to other countries or dispersed them in the country. The German government should have also dispersed Dresden civilians in the right time.

Jerzy

I really don't understand your remarks.

If that was really true about "any historical event should be presented in its context" IN THAT WAY YOU INTERPRET IT, we wouldn't have a lot of historical books and no thesis in history at all.

There were almost no troops in Dresden. No significant military industries enterprises were deployed there either. There was no justification to choosing Dresden as a target.

I agree entirely with Steissd on this one--in fact, i'd go a step further and say that this was a "spite" bombing on the part of the Allies. They wanted to do some nasty damage to the Germans, and chose their target carefully.

Another history report on the fire-bombing of Dresden.

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/61/001.html


c.i.

I believe that my 'interpretation' is quite reasonable. If you want to write about bombings during WWII you start with 1942 to obtain your thesis. In reality the Luftwaffe bombed Guernica, Wielun, Sulejow, Rotterdam, London, Coventry. Germans were quite happy with it. Later the Germans make a revelation that bombing civilians was a crime. Wow! The whole world knew it long before the Germans understood.

Another German revelation - deportations were wrong. Evrything was O.K. during WWII when Germans moved millions of Jews and Slavs from one place to another. The deportations became a crime in 1945.

Jerzy

Does your 'working class' inform about Soviet genocide?
An 'academic' source.

Jerzy

Prof. Klemperer and several other Jews were saved by those nasty imperialistic bombs.

Jerzy

Jerzy, the fact that the Nazis acted like barbarians does not mean that the Allies were supposed to act in the same way toward the civilian German population. As far as I know the commanders that defined behavior of Wehrmacht, Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarinen were convicted, and some of them even executed.

Jerzy

What do you want to tell me/us?

The title of this thread mentions something about holocaust deniers, but this was never commented upon. It seems apparent the most Germans supported the Nazis who, after all, got a plurality in 1932 and were very open about their program. It also seems disingenuous for Germans to claim the status of victims. I realize that W. Germany paid restitution to Israel (perhaps to assuage a guilty conscience), but the facts about the holocaust cannot be denied.

I do not think that Germans supported Hitler in the 1932 elections just because all of them wanted Jews to be extinguished. I think, majority of the voters that supported NSDAP were quite neutral toward Jews, and they did not realize that Hitler really meant physical extinction. IMHO, they were attracted by other features in the political program of the NSDAP: putting end to economic stagnation, revision of the unjust Versailles treaty, etc. After having come to power, Hitler dismantled the democratic system in Germany, thus making his replacement by conventional measures impossible.

http://www.domeus.de/message/read.jsp;jsessionid=2a6yyzmxg3;dom05?scroll=true&mid=24991855

Jerzy, have you got any English-language source, please? Not everyone here knows German well enough to read serious texts in this language.

Thanks, Jerzy, for mentioning that. I get "Die Zeit" on subscription.

I'm sorry, I have found only one phrase in English:
http://www.achtungpanzer.com/polcamp.htm
- the destruction of the city of Wielun.

Jerzy