hawkeye10 wrote:
OK, but what is force? Many American courts have said that coercion is force but what is coercion?
one take
Quote:Sexual Issues
Sexual coercion
Sexual coercion means to force someone to have sex by means of manipulation or threat. It often occurs in situations where the coercer has a poor understanding of sexual consent - for example, when boys think (or have been told) that girls have to say "no" so they don't feel like "sluts", even if what they really mean is "yes".
Sexual coercion can also arise when a partner with low self-esteem fears they will lose their boyfriend/girlfriend if they don't "put out". This type of coercion is often perpetrated by ill-informed people who fail to put their partner's needs and well-being on the same level as their own
http://www.sexualityandu.ca/adults/sex-2-3.aspx
which the way I read this if I ask you for sex and you have low self esteem or for what ever reason think that I will stop wanting you if you say no so you say yes (what I know of this who knows ) then I have just raped you.
Go ahead, tell be about how simple and fair to the men our sexual ethics and rape laws are.
According to most of what you quoted in this post, and according to humanity, you would have raped a woman if she said NO, no matter what you want to think she meant.
If she says yes, and changes her mind AFTER the fact due to embarassment, NO you are not a rapist. And that is the situation where jury's are called in. And you hope people can see through her . That is a poor example of humanity , the women or the man who cries rape when there isnt any. And I dont care what kind of a society you live in, this will happen at one time or another. We are thinking beings and since we dont stop thinking, issues like this will occur. And you can focus on this one example and use it in your fuel fire for justifying types of rape or you can not. It is up to you.
What I as a woman may mean with the word no though is not your business and is not a 'problem that needs a solution by you' . If i say no, the answer is no. If you say no, the answer is no.
Using arguments such as " a woman does not want to feel like a slut so she says no when she MEANS yes" is simply a small minded angry mans way of taking what he wants with justification.
How fair is that to the man? (saying no when you want to think we mean yes)
You have to be kidding me? Are you really thinking that way? Are you that shallow, that low, that stupid, to think you can not live with out sex and sexual release? If you truly respect a woman and want to have sex with her, you can wait a day, two, a week, a month, what ever it takes.
If waiting for her makes you angry, you have a real problem. Just because you have an erection, women are not supposed to bow to you and make it their job to make you happy.
Something about women having any power bothers you. You can not see women for what they are. We are the source for life. With out us, you die. Same goes for men. We are equal Hawkass. Just because you have an erection, does not mean you all of a sudden hold an upper hand and that you now know what we want. Men are not as complicated as women. You will never know what we want. To a certain extent, YOU are the lower sex. Not women.
If you are dating a woman who is constantly telling you a different thing every time you turn around, then you need to date another woman. She may need some help, but it isnt sexual help and it isnt help from force she needs. A grown woman, a safe woman knows what she wants and has the confidence and strength to back up her words. Just because she may not, does not mean you have the right to rob her of her safety by forcing her to have sex simply because YOU THINK she wants it. If you are so concerned with rape laws and being falsely accused, leave the women who dont give you an answer alone and start finding safe, mature , strong women. Trust me, they outnumber the ones who 'may not be sure of what they want yet' (your words)
You do not live inside every womans head. You think we are simple, mindless people. Im sorry darling. But it is people like you who are simple and mindless. People who think they know what everyone wants as if they are some kind of god. People who think they can and should try to read between the lines of someones comments... are the simple, mindless people. People who try to find a way to control others, assert themselves over others and otherwise try to make their issues and needs more important , are the people with the real problem.
You have no inside information to women. There is no such thing. As a man you should remain in your place and take what someone says at face value. Force, no matter if it is physical , emotional, or verbal is not acceptable from either sex when it comes to trying to HAVE sex. That is basic humanity. That is common respect, and that is what makes a man a real man and a woman a safe woman. She knows what she wants and she will tell you. A man knows what he wants and will tell you. 2 safe mature adults have sex as they want to. Consensual sex takes two not one yes.
The laws are written in the way that allows women to prosecute men like you who would use words instead of physical force just to take care of their erection.
Really.. for one minute.. turn your words on yourself and imagine a gay man who has been your friend for a long time trying to tell you that he knows you really want to have sex with him. And that the only reason you have been friends with him is because you were curious. Yet, you were friends with him for years because you really liked him and enjoyed his company. Not for sexual reasons of any kind and while you are trying to explain this... all he did was push aside your reasons for not having sex with him, and he began to force himself on you. Maybe that scenario turns you on. You seen to enjoy angry forced ideas.. But I am willing to bet it doesnt.
In fact, I am willing to bet that you are thinking right now " he wouldnt be able to do that to me. Im a man. I would fight him off. All I have to say is NO and he will understand" (And women cant?)
Bullshit.
Just because you 'are a man' it does not give you the upper hand in any situation. Whether it involves a man OR a woman.
Women are not responsible for your erection. Sex is not something you will die with out, and it is not the fuel for anger, power, or status.
Laws are written so that men like you can be caught. We as women do not have to bend and fold to your desires no matter what you may think is going on in our heads. And the same power belongs to you , dear man. You do not have to have sex with us, just because we ask for it. Funny, that men saying no to sex is just a given when people think about it. But for a woman to say no, all of a sudden peoples feathers get ruffled as if we are paid company. They want to question our reasons and otherwise debate our needs. As if we are incapable of just saying No. Even if it is something that makes no sense to another person, our reasons for no are not up for debate. No means no.
Women dont owe you anything.
You dont own our vaginas just because you are a man.
Young girls dont know what they are doing if they choose to think of themselves as a slut because they are having sex and if those are the kinds of people you want to defend, you belong on the pedophile thread and not here. Grown women , young women, and babies all have ownership of their vaginas. Just like men own their penis. You have no right, I dont care WHAT you may think someone wants, to attempt to -take it-.
As I said before, if you are with someone who constantly says no, you need to find someone else because she obviously has some problems, but it is not up to you to use any words, actions, or manipulation to get her to do what YOU want. Because that is what it comes down to. You want sex. She said no. You will make her say yes because YOU WANT IT.
That. is called rape.
Most rapists do not grasp the concept that women can say what ever they damn well please. For every one woman who says no, there are several who will always say yes. Leave her alone and move on. The appeal of a powerplay is no justification for having sex with someone who has said no.
You can not use the idea of " what about if a man asks you out all the time?"
A date is safe and does not involve any penetration of my body. A date is a date. Women hear no all the time and may ask a man again. Men hear no all the time and may ask again.
Dating , going out for dinner, drinks and what have you is safe. And is no comparison to saying NO to sex.
you SO have no clue.
