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Rape: What is it?

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 10:43 pm
Why is it that women can be demanding and controlling about sex but get a free pass for the very same behaviour that get men on a sexual offenders list?? Oh, right, the old double standard rule is in effect when it comes to sexual politics

Quote:
March 1, 2001
Psychiatric Times. Vol. 17 No. 3
Men's Reactions to Female Sexual Coercion
Cindy Struckman and David Struckman

Dr. Cindy Struckman-Johnson is professor of psychology specializing in social psychology and sexuality at the University of South Dakota. Dr. David Struckman-Johnson is professor of psychology and computer science specializing in statistics and evaluation at the University of South Dakota.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

One of the long-standing myths about sexual coercion is that a woman cannot make a man have sex with her. Prevailing stereotypes about women's physical weakness, disinterest in sex, sex-role passiveness and gentle nature lead many people to assume that women are not capable of such an act (Anderson and Struckman-Johnson, 1998). In reality, research has shown that substantial numbers of men are subjected to the sexually aggressive behavior of female strangers, acquaintances and lovers.

Prevalence
Over a decade ago, we found that 16% of a sample of 268 men at a small Midwestern university reported that they had been forced to have sexual intercourse on a date (Struckman-Johnson, 1988.) A few years later, we documented that 30% of a sample of 204 college men had experienced an incident of pressured or forced sexual contact with a female perpetrator. For 20% of the men, the incident resulted in sexual intercourse (Struckman-Johnson and Struckman-Johnson, 1994). In a replication of this survey, 43% of 318 men reported having had at least one coercive sexual experience with a woman since the age of 16. The incident culminated in sexual intercourse for 27% of the men (Anderson and Struckman-Johnson, 1998).

Other researchers have reported similar findings. Lottes (1991) reported that 24% of 171 men at an Eastern college had been coerced into sexual intercourse. Fiebert and Tucci (1998) found that 24% of a sample of 182 college men in California had unwanted sex with an insistent woman in the past five years. In a survey of two Canadian universities, O'Sullivan et al. (1998) reported that 24% of 156 men had experienced some type of sexual coercion in heterosexual dating. Larimer et al. (1999) found that 21% of a sample of 165 fraternity men at a Western college experienced unwanted sexual contact. Going beyond the college campus, Isely and Gehrenbeck-Shim (1999) documented that 6% of 3,635 male rape victims requesting assistance at 172 agencies had been assaulted by a woman.

Dynamics
How does a woman accomplish sexual coercion of an adolescent or adult male? Our research suggests that women are most likely to use psychological pressure such as verbal pleading and arguments, emotional blackmail, and deception. Another common approach of sexually aggressive women is to take advantage of a man's intoxicated state. A typical scenario, according to male victims, involves a predatory woman who encounters an inebriated man (or contributes to his drinking) and pursues him until he falls asleep or passes out. The woman then manually or orally stimulates him to erection and mounts him for sexual intercourse.

Sexually aggressive women only occasionally resort to force tactics, which we define as intimidation with size, threats of harm including blackmail, physical restraint, physical harm or use of a weapon. In our surveys, about 12% or less of male victims reported that a woman used force against them, but in most cases, the force was not extreme. Women locked men into cars, blocked their retreat from a room, grabbed at them, threw them down on beds and floors, sat on them, and tied them up. In some instances, women pinched, slapped and hit men who tried to stop their advances. A few men reported that women blackmailed them into having sex by threatening to divulge damaging information to parents, employers or girlfriends.

http://www.psychiatrictimes.com/sexual-issues/article/10168/49671
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 10:46 pm
so? nobody here says women do not rape men as well. same principle.

i also posted a scenario about a gay predator. please respond to that.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 10:49 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
so? nobody here says women do not rape men as well. same principle.

i also posted a scenario about a gay predator. please respond to that.


Ya, they do, but nothing happens to them. WHy? Could it be that rape law is biased against men? Maybe? Possibly?
0 Replies
 
martybarker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 10:49 pm
Now I'm a little curious Hawkeye, why the interest and research on this topic?
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 10:50 pm
that is not true. there have been trials of women rapists as well.

ok, again:
dagmaraka wrote:
scenario: you go for a dinner with a male friend or a colleague or acquaintance. unbeknowst to you he's gay. he has expectations of getting real close with you after the get-together. you decline, but he pursues, thinking you're just playing hard to get. in the end he forces himself upon you against your will.

now tell me, is that also right from the gay acquaintance's point of view?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 10:52 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
scenario: you go for a dinner with a male friend or a colleague or acquaintance. unbeknowst to you he's gay. he has expectations of getting real close with you after the get-together. you decline, but he pursues, thinking you're just playing hard to get. in the end he forces himself upon you against your will.

now tell me, is that also right from the gay acquaintance's point of view?


This does not strike me as a real world situation. Most of the time the gay men are on good behaviour because they know that if they mess with the wrong hetro guy they will get their ass kicked. Understand the power dynamics and all will become clear to you.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  2  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 10:54 pm
hawkeye10 wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
scenario: you go for a dinner with a male friend or a colleague or acquaintance. unbeknowst to you he's gay. he has expectations of getting real close with you after the get-together. you decline, but he pursues, thinking you're just playing hard to get. in the end he forces himself upon you against your will.

now tell me, is that also right from the gay acquaintance's point of view?


This does not strike me as a real world situation. Most of the time the gay men are on good behaviour because they know that if they mess with the wrong hetro guy they will get their ass kicked. Understand the power dynamics and all will become clear to you.


Laughing you SO have no clue.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 10:57 pm
martybarker wrote:
Now I'm a little curious Hawkeye, why the interest and research on this topic?

I have already answered this. However I will add that I originally became interested in the subject because my wife was sexually abused as a child, then my girls were. I wanted to know why our society is so sexually screwed-up. I did find some interesting clues along the way, some of which I am trying to talk about here if I can ever find enough smart open minded people to converse with.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 11:02 pm
what do they think of your opinion that the rape law was designed to shut men up? do they find it helpful in getting to terms what happened to them?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  -2  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 11:02 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
hawkeye10 wrote:
dagmaraka wrote:
scenario: you go for a dinner with a male friend or a colleague or acquaintance. unbeknowst to you he's gay. he has expectations of getting real close with you after the get-together. you decline, but he pursues, thinking you're just playing hard to get. in the end he forces himself upon you against your will.

now tell me, is that also right from the gay acquaintance's point of view?


This does not strike me as a real world situation. Most of the time the gay men are on good behaviour because they know that if they mess with the wrong hetro guy they will get their ass kicked. Understand the power dynamics and all will become clear to you.


Laughing you SO have no clue.


the gay guys I know say that they don't have any trouble finding other gay guys to have sex with. They have no need to mess with guys that might not be gay. But then I know nothing...right?
0 Replies
 
martybarker
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Jul, 2008 11:03 pm
hawkeye10 wrote:
martybarker wrote:
Now I'm a little curious Hawkeye, why the interest and research on this topic?

I have already answered this. However I will add that I originally became interested in the subject because my wife was sexually abused as a child, then my girls were. I wanted to know why our society is so sexually screwed-up. I did find some interesting clues along the way, some of which I am trying to talk about here if I can ever find enough smart open minded people to converse with.


Harsh, I'll take my unintelligent closed mind somewhere else. Good luck finding someone who will agree with your thoughts.
0 Replies
 
Joe Nation
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 04:20 am
Quote:
Laughing You SO have no clue.

Quote:
the gay guys I know say that they don't have any trouble finding other gay guys to have sex with. They have no need to mess with guys that might not be gay. But then I know nothing...right?


Maybe not nothing, but I'm pretty sure you know next to nothing. I don't know what kind of "interesting clues" you have found, but they, if you have exposed any of them here, don't seem to be connected fully with reality. You don't seem to be talking about sexual relationships, you are talking about what used to be called Sport Fcuking. That sort of behavior amongst adults still exists, I'm sure, though I had to drop out of league play myself many several years ago. It's about, you'll love this, negotiating a sex act (or two or three) between two adults,(Or two or three Laughing ) getting it done right and moving on. Oh, btw, in these negotiations, no means no. There's sex involved, but no relationship.

"Organs, brain waves, wipe up the mess" as a very nice honey-haired sweetie of the past used to say.


You wouldn't do very well in the Sexual Leagues. Might get some Pities here and there, but, if you kept to the same circle of bars, you would get marked pretty early as an powerfreak and then... .

Oh, and I meant to mention, you whimped out on Dag's question. What a surprise!!

Keeping reading, but stop reading whatever it is you have been reading, it's bent your thinking.

Joe(such as it was)Nation
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 05:39 am
I guess, according to h, women should be willing victims, and grateful for the opportunity to carry his seed.
0 Replies
 
Chai
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 05:58 am
hawkeye10 wrote:
Chai wrote:
I may not know what I want when choosing between essentially unimportant things, like a burger or chicken sandwich, but I have never, nor have I ever met a woman who doesn't know whether she wants to have sex with someone at a particular time.



In sales there are continual attempts to close the deal, often many "no's" and "maybe's" are encountered before the "yes" comes. I relationships we market ourselves and try to sell ourselves to the ones that we want, not unlike a business deal. Guys and girls who give up on no and mark the person who said no as forever more not an option don't get very far.


In relationships I've had, I haven't ever tried to "sell" myself. I am what I am.

Men who try to "sell" themselves to me make me wonder what they are hiding, and I lost interest in them.

So....because you come here and make these rediculous statements, and everyone is saying that is not true, are you thinking you are selling us on your ideas, and we are all just saying "maybe"?

In that case, just as I would do to a salesman who has that old Dale Carnegie, Zig Ziegler idea that no means maybe, I would prove to him I really mean no by cutting off all communications, and let himself waste his energies while I move on, forgeting all about him.

The longer people respond to you, the longer you will ramble on, and frankly, you're nowhere near worth it.

Later (not) dude.
0 Replies
 
shewolfnm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 06:45 am
hawkeye10 wrote:


OK, but what is force? Many American courts have said that coercion is force but what is coercion?

one take
Quote:
Sexual Issues
Sexual coercion
Sexual coercion means to force someone to have sex by means of manipulation or threat. It often occurs in situations where the coercer has a poor understanding of sexual consent - for example, when boys think (or have been told) that girls have to say "no" so they don't feel like "sluts", even if what they really mean is "yes".

Sexual coercion can also arise when a partner with low self-esteem fears they will lose their boyfriend/girlfriend if they don't "put out". This type of coercion is often perpetrated by ill-informed people who fail to put their partner's needs and well-being on the same level as their own
http://www.sexualityandu.ca/adults/sex-2-3.aspx
which the way I read this if I ask you for sex and you have low self esteem or for what ever reason think that I will stop wanting you if you say no so you say yes (what I know of this who knows ) then I have just raped you.

Go ahead, tell be about how simple and fair to the men our sexual ethics and rape laws are.




According to most of what you quoted in this post, and according to humanity, you would have raped a woman if she said NO, no matter what you want to think she meant.

If she says yes, and changes her mind AFTER the fact due to embarassment, NO you are not a rapist. And that is the situation where jury's are called in. And you hope people can see through her . That is a poor example of humanity , the women or the man who cries rape when there isnt any. And I dont care what kind of a society you live in, this will happen at one time or another. We are thinking beings and since we dont stop thinking, issues like this will occur. And you can focus on this one example and use it in your fuel fire for justifying types of rape or you can not. It is up to you.

What I as a woman may mean with the word no though is not your business and is not a 'problem that needs a solution by you' . If i say no, the answer is no. If you say no, the answer is no.

Using arguments such as " a woman does not want to feel like a slut so she says no when she MEANS yes" is simply a small minded angry mans way of taking what he wants with justification.

How fair is that to the man? (saying no when you want to think we mean yes)

You have to be kidding me? Are you really thinking that way? Are you that shallow, that low, that stupid, to think you can not live with out sex and sexual release? If you truly respect a woman and want to have sex with her, you can wait a day, two, a week, a month, what ever it takes.
If waiting for her makes you angry, you have a real problem. Just because you have an erection, women are not supposed to bow to you and make it their job to make you happy.

Something about women having any power bothers you. You can not see women for what they are. We are the source for life. With out us, you die. Same goes for men. We are equal Hawkass. Just because you have an erection, does not mean you all of a sudden hold an upper hand and that you now know what we want. Men are not as complicated as women. You will never know what we want. To a certain extent, YOU are the lower sex. Not women.

If you are dating a woman who is constantly telling you a different thing every time you turn around, then you need to date another woman. She may need some help, but it isnt sexual help and it isnt help from force she needs. A grown woman, a safe woman knows what she wants and has the confidence and strength to back up her words. Just because she may not, does not mean you have the right to rob her of her safety by forcing her to have sex simply because YOU THINK she wants it. If you are so concerned with rape laws and being falsely accused, leave the women who dont give you an answer alone and start finding safe, mature , strong women. Trust me, they outnumber the ones who 'may not be sure of what they want yet' (your words)

You do not live inside every womans head. You think we are simple, mindless people. Im sorry darling. But it is people like you who are simple and mindless. People who think they know what everyone wants as if they are some kind of god. People who think they can and should try to read between the lines of someones comments... are the simple, mindless people. People who try to find a way to control others, assert themselves over others and otherwise try to make their issues and needs more important , are the people with the real problem.

You have no inside information to women. There is no such thing. As a man you should remain in your place and take what someone says at face value. Force, no matter if it is physical , emotional, or verbal is not acceptable from either sex when it comes to trying to HAVE sex. That is basic humanity. That is common respect, and that is what makes a man a real man and a woman a safe woman. She knows what she wants and she will tell you. A man knows what he wants and will tell you. 2 safe mature adults have sex as they want to. Consensual sex takes two not one yes.

The laws are written in the way that allows women to prosecute men like you who would use words instead of physical force just to take care of their erection.

Really.. for one minute.. turn your words on yourself and imagine a gay man who has been your friend for a long time trying to tell you that he knows you really want to have sex with him. And that the only reason you have been friends with him is because you were curious. Yet, you were friends with him for years because you really liked him and enjoyed his company. Not for sexual reasons of any kind and while you are trying to explain this... all he did was push aside your reasons for not having sex with him, and he began to force himself on you. Maybe that scenario turns you on. You seen to enjoy angry forced ideas.. But I am willing to bet it doesnt.

In fact, I am willing to bet that you are thinking right now " he wouldnt be able to do that to me. Im a man. I would fight him off. All I have to say is NO and he will understand" (And women cant?)
Bullshit.
Just because you 'are a man' it does not give you the upper hand in any situation. Whether it involves a man OR a woman.

Women are not responsible for your erection. Sex is not something you will die with out, and it is not the fuel for anger, power, or status.

Laws are written so that men like you can be caught. We as women do not have to bend and fold to your desires no matter what you may think is going on in our heads. And the same power belongs to you , dear man. You do not have to have sex with us, just because we ask for it. Funny, that men saying no to sex is just a given when people think about it. But for a woman to say no, all of a sudden peoples feathers get ruffled as if we are paid company. They want to question our reasons and otherwise debate our needs. As if we are incapable of just saying No. Even if it is something that makes no sense to another person, our reasons for no are not up for debate. No means no.

Women dont owe you anything.
You dont own our vaginas just because you are a man.
Young girls dont know what they are doing if they choose to think of themselves as a slut because they are having sex and if those are the kinds of people you want to defend, you belong on the pedophile thread and not here. Grown women , young women, and babies all have ownership of their vaginas. Just like men own their penis. You have no right, I dont care WHAT you may think someone wants, to attempt to -take it-.
As I said before, if you are with someone who constantly says no, you need to find someone else because she obviously has some problems, but it is not up to you to use any words, actions, or manipulation to get her to do what YOU want. Because that is what it comes down to. You want sex. She said no. You will make her say yes because YOU WANT IT.
That. is called rape.

Most rapists do not grasp the concept that women can say what ever they damn well please. For every one woman who says no, there are several who will always say yes. Leave her alone and move on. The appeal of a powerplay is no justification for having sex with someone who has said no.

You can not use the idea of " what about if a man asks you out all the time?"

A date is safe and does not involve any penetration of my body. A date is a date. Women hear no all the time and may ask a man again. Men hear no all the time and may ask again.

Dating , going out for dinner, drinks and what have you is safe. And is no comparison to saying NO to sex.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 08:51 am
After reading this entire thread, it occurs to me that hawkeye is his own best counsel.

hawkeye10 wrote:
Understand the power dynamics and all will become clear to you.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 09:49 am
"many women", "most women" "women" blah blah blah.

I think it is hilarious that hawkeye throws around these terms in a huge international forum with an amazing cross section of women, none of whom agree with him, and yet he continues to believe that he speaks for "most women".

Under hawkeye's proposed changes to the law all a rapist would have to do is carry around a little tape recorder and tell their victim to say "I really want you to **** me right now".

"See, officer, she said she wanted it so it couldn't have been rape."

There seems to me to be a very profound disconnet in a man who says his wife and children were victims of sexual violence while repeatedly justifying sexual violence.
0 Replies
 
Bella Dea
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 11:39 am
boomerang wrote:


There seems to me to be a very profound disconnet in a man who says his wife and children were victims of sexual violence while repeatedly justifying sexual violence.


Makes you a little uneasy, doesn't it?

Hawkeye, your utter bullshit and clueless perception never cease to amaze me. And disgust me.

What does your wife think of all this? If she's ever healed from her own scars, she'd likely think you were drunk off your ass or insane. Of course, maybe that is why she married you. She never got over her violation. And she was an easy target for you.

Honestly, your speaking for ANY woman ever is ridiculous, given that you are a man and can never understand being a woman.

On top of that, boomer is right. Not one woman here agrees with you so you can't even begin to think you're speaking for any number of us.
0 Replies
 
cyphercat
 
  3  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 12:16 pm
hawkeye10 wrote:
Or if the courts later determine that the guy was overly aggressive in trying to get the sexual intimacy to happen in which case he is said to have been coercive ,IE used force, and thus you were raped even though you wanted what happened to happen and always said yes. In this case the do gooders have decided for you that you did not have the right to say yes.


This is bizarre. Let me see if I'm understanding you correctly: You seem to be stating that "the do-gooders" (i.e., the law, courts, etc, I suppose) will get involved and issue rape charges in situations where neither partner says there was rape.

Yes? Isn't that the only thing this part can mean: "In this case the do gooders have decided for you that you did not have the right to say yes"?? Do you honestly think there are cases where men are charged with rape because the courts rule that the woman did not have the right to say yes?
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Thu 3 Jul, 2008 12:22 pm
I think he must be talking about sex with underage persons, cypher. A person under the age of consent doesn't have the "right" to say yes. If someone has sex with children the "do gooders" will step in and prosecute.
0 Replies
 
 

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