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neologist wrote:

aperson wrote:
neologist wrote:
aperson wrote:
neologist wrote:
In what way does omnipotence negate desire?

Human suffering is a consequence of Edenic rebellion. God has promised to do away with it. If you don't like his timetable, perhaps you could suggest something better.

Does God want human suffering? It seems to me he does.
Seems?

Please do not attempt to avoid my question. I want an answer. Does God want human suffering?
No

Ok then.

Wait, is everything that happens part of God's plan? You'll have to enlighten me here - I am not familiar with your beliefs.

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aperson wrote:

. . . Wait, is everything that happens part of God's plan? You'll have to enlighten me here - I am not familiar with your beliefs.

First, there is a difference between plan and purpose. A plan may be frustrated without altering one's purpose.

God's purpose was stated early in Genesis and is for humans to "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth" (Genesis 1:28) Had Adam and Eve not sinned, they would still be here and we would not have war and crime and sickness and death.

The rebellion of Satan (the name means 'rebel') and Adam and Eve has not altered God's purpose and the entire bible was written to assure us that his purpose will be fulfilled. True, it may seem like an interminably long time to us, but we do not have God's perspective.

It is no accident, BTW, that the seventh creative day has not been recorded as having ended.

And the name Jehovah literally means 'He who causes to become'.

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The whole idea of God is a primitive way of looking at the world. Religion plays on our fear of death, by giving us an "answer" which allows us to neatly bypass that fear. It is the greatest con in human history. People are scared of an open-ended system, and an indifferent universe. People would rather a false explanation than no explanation at all.

religion begins where reason ends.

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Existential Potential is correct. There has never been a definitive sign of an exact god. Jesus did have some revolutionary ideas but that does not make him the "son of god". People cling to religion because it explains the impossible and gives people a feeling of security. Humans are imperfect because nothing governs their actions and they are driven by cultural and biological desires.

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existential potential wrote:

The whole idea of God is a primitive way of looking at the world. Religion plays on our fear of death, by giving us an "answer" which allows us to neatly bypass that fear. It is the greatest con in human history. People are scared of an open-ended system, and an indifferent universe. People would rather a false explanation than no explanation at all.

religion begins where reason ends.

While I largely agree I think you should also consider religion's use as a tool of social control. It is eminently intertwined with political systems throughout history and used by the powerful to set 'standards' of acceptable behaviours and to define and identify those who are 'other'. At the personal level I have found that religion is also attractive to people who want a sense of belonging - perhaps some latent herd instinct? Excuse the faux evolutionary biopsychology.

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Ok here is a very good video to explain that idea.

Rob Bell-Rythm

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existential potential wrote:

The whole idea of God is a primitive way of looking at the world. Religion plays on our fear of death, by giving us an "answer" which allows us to neatly bypass that fear. It is the greatest con in human history. People are scared of an open-ended system, and an indifferent universe. People would rather a false explanation than no explanation at all.

religion begins where reason ends.

Brilliant post. Permission to use the last line in my sig?

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neologist wrote:

aperson wrote:
. . . Wait, is everything that happens part of God's plan? You'll have to enlighten me here - I am not familiar with your beliefs.
First, there is a difference between plan and purpose. A plan may be frustrated without altering one's purpose.

God's purpose was stated early in Genesis and is for humans to "Be fruitful and become many and fill the earth and subdue it, and have in subjection the fish of the sea and the flying creatures of the heavens and every living creature that is moving upon the earth" (Genesis 1:28) Had Adam and Eve not sinned, they would still be here and we would not have war and crime and sickness and death.

The rebellion of Satan (the name means 'rebel') and Adam and Eve has not altered God's purpose and the entire bible was written to assure us that his purpose will be fulfilled. True, it may seem like an interminably long time to us, but we do not have God's perspective.

It is no accident, BTW, that the seventh creative day has not been recorded as having ended.

And the name Jehovah literally means 'He who causes to become'.

Your extremely literal translation of the Bible is not encouraging. Even Genesis is full of contradictions. I don't see how you can convince yourself that it makes complete sense.

If God is omnipotent, then why didn't he just make it that Adam and Eve didn't sin? Surely if he wants no evil, and he has the power to make that a reality, he would do that. This indicates that either he is not omnipotent, or that he doesn't not want evil. You make it seem as if God is not entirely in control.

Also, I don't understand why mankind should suffer for the sins of our parents. Isn't God being rather unfair?

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neo, Why is it that god abhors homosexuals, but he created them. Why are there crib deaths? Why are some born with two heads and one body? Did they really have free will? Why does natural disasters kill the good and the bad? What of all those young girls being raped in Africa and getting infected with HIV/AIDS? What kind of sin did they commit to become victims of such dastardly deeds? Why has religion been responsible for most humans inhumanity to man? Why did he stop all those miracles since his death to show he exists? Aren't those born after his death worth the evidence? Why does the bible have so many contradictions, errors and omissions? Was that on purpose to confuse? Did god really devine every word in the bible?

Why is it that historians have kept records from before jesus' life on earth (from about three thousand years before his birth), but there's nothing except the bible to show the existence of jesus? Wouldn't the witnesses to all those miracles have recorded them? Why have all of them disappeared?

Strange.

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aperson wrote:

. . .If God is omnipotent, then why didn't he just make it that Adam and Eve didn't sin? Surely if he wants no evil, and he has the power to make that a reality, he would do that. This indicates that either he is not omnipotent, or that he doesn't not want evil. You make it seem as if God is not entirely in control.

Also, I don't understand why mankind should suffer for the sins of our parents. Isn't God being rather unfair?

You would have us be puppets, incapable of offending the puppeteer?

No thanks.

Would our suffering be justified if, in the end, it were removed and forgotten?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

neo, Why is it that god abhors homosexuals, but he created them. Why are there crib deaths? Why are some born with two heads and one body? Did they really have free will? Why does natural disasters kill the good and the bad? What of all those young girls being raped in Africa and getting infected with HIV/AIDS? What kind of sin did they commit to become victims of such dastardly deeds? Why has religion been responsible for most humans inhumanity to man? Why did he stop all those miracles since his death to show he exists? Aren't those born after his death worth the evidence? Why does the bible have so many contradictions, errors and omissions? Was that on purpose to confuse? Did god really devine every word in the bible?

Why is it that historians have kept records from before jesus' life on earth (from about three thousand years before his birth), but there's nothing except the bible to show the existence of jesus? Wouldn't the witnesses to all those miracles have recorded them? Why have all of them disappeared?

Strange.

You may recall from the story of Jesus' temptation in Matthew chapter 4, that the devil offered Jesus all the kingdoms of the world. He could not have done that if they did not belong to him. One thing the preachers of christendom are loath to point out is that the bible teaches that the entire world is and has been under the control of God's adversary. The human misery, war, crime, sickness, and death that plague us come as a direct result of the rebellion in Eden.

I have had 2 grand children and a nephew die of crib death and I know how devastating it is, but God did not take them. Nor does God create homosexuals or promote the sexual exploitation of children.

There were four witnesses to Jesus' miracles who recorded them. Other documents of Jesus' miracles may exist, but are not part of the bible canon.

As I've said before, the apparent contradictions of the bible all have reasonable explanations. At least, all that I have yet considered.

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Ok who says god hates homosexuals?
I can definatly think of some things god would hate more.
Why would an all merciful god punish us for something that (according to the bible) happened six thousand years ago.
How is that a merciful god if he hates homosexual people and hasn't forgiven us since "creation"?

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ZoSo wrote:

Ok who says god hates homosexuals?

He doesn't

ZoSo wrote:

I can definatly think of some things god would hate more.

Yeah, Me too

ZoSo wrote:

Why would an all merciful god punish us for something that (according to the bible) happened six thousand years ago.

He doesn't

ZoSo wrote:

How is that a merciful god if he hates homosexual people and hasn't forgiven us since "creation"?

All sins can be forgiven. What's your point?

We suffer the consequence of Adam's sin, not his punishment.

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Ok I was being metaphorical you cant seriously say you believe Genesis literally!!

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Of course aperson, of course you can use my last line in your sig.

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ZoSo wrote:

Ok I was being metaphorical you cant seriously say you believe Genesis literally!!

Parts are either metaphoric or symbolic. . . Your point?

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I thnk most christians do not take Genesis litrally anymore.

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The existence of miracles depends entirely on the testimony of the apostles. Their testimonies could well be incorrect, they may have thought that they saw a miracle, when really they saw nothing of the kind. How can anyone unquestionably assent, based on a testimony, that something that they have never experienced or anyone else has ever experienced in modern times exists. Something that completely goes against nature, and what we expect of nature.

Hume, in his famous section "of miracles", says that we should only believe the report of a miracle if it would more of a miracle that the reporter should be mistaken. That is to say we should always believe the lesser miracle.

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ep, So true; even today, many claim they have seen flying saucers and aliens; they are legend.

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