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Supreme Court Reduces Damages For Exxon Valdez Oil Spill

 
 
oralloy
 
Reply Wed 25 Jun, 2008 08:10 am
Punitive damages cut from 2.5 Billion to 500 Million.

AP: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/scotus_exxon_valdez

Reuters: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/exxon_valdez_court_dc
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hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 10:30 am
why not just substitute the penalty with some scolding ... ... perhaps that'll stop the polluters ! Crying or Very sad

Quote:
Protecting Canada's Marine Environments from Polluters

http://www.ec.gc.ca/EnviroZine/images/Issue55/oiledmurre1_l.jpg

Oiled murre found in Clam Harbour, Nova Scotia.

Protecting Canada's coastal areas is a difficult task. Canada has the longest coastline of any nation in the world, 243 000 kilometres - more than six times the distance around the earth's equator.

Each year, on the Atlantic East coast alone, an estimated 300 000 seabirds are killed by illegal bilge oil discharge by passing ships. This bird mortality rate is the equivalent of one Exxon Valdez oil spill happening every year in terms of the impacts on migratory birds.


source :
NOVA SCOTIA OIL POLLUTION
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 10:34 am
hamburger wrote:
why not just substitute the penalty with some scolding ... ... perhaps that'll stop the polluters ! Crying or Very sad


Perhaps you could tell us if that works in Alberta?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 12:37 pm
george wrote :

Quote:

Perhaps you could tell us if that works in Alberta?


why not start a thread on the alberta oilsands ?
i'm sure there would be much interest and good participation .
personally i think that canada is making a big mistake in pushing the oilsands developmaent too quickly .
far better to take a slow approach and reap benefits for a much longer period of time . i also think that at least part of the profits should be used to develop alternative energy production - much like norway and dubay are doing .
if oil production goes down , prices will likely increase and canada would make as much of a profit - perhaps even more - than by simply producing more oil (and pollution) .

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

but back to pollution by tankers .
many responsible shipping companies have built double-hulled tankers and have had very few problems with break-ups .
it's the shipping companies operating ships under "flags of convenience" (liberia , panama ... ... ) that have bought old single-hulled ships prone to breakup that are usually the sorce of pollution problems - often not helped by inexperienced crews .

noel mostert's book "supership" gave a good account of the existing problems in 1975 and of what was to come !
but who wanted to listen to him ?
he just wanted the shipping companies to spend more money by going to double-hulled ships - far cheaper to pay a penalty upon breakup - if they were even able to nail down the culprit !

from a book review (i'm glad i have a copy of the book) :

Quote:


source :
SUPERSHIP

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Quote:
Because the spill impacted 1,300 miles, it took the Exxon Valdez Company four summers to clean up the spill. Some oil may still remain on the beaches. It took 10,000 workers, 1,000 boats, 100 airplanes, and the Navy, Army, and Air Force to clean up the spill. Exxon spent about $2.1 billion for the clean up.


Quote:
Why didn't the Exxon Valdez have a double hull?

If the Exxon Valdez were a doubled-hulled ship, the chance of an oil spill would be 60% smaller. They wouldn't have a great spill in the ocean.

If the chances of a spill would be much smaller, why didn't the Exxon Valdez buy a doubled-hulled ship? A doubled-hulled ship costs $300,000,000 in America. A regular oil tanker costs about $200,000,000. The Exxon company decided to wait until the year 2015 in order to buy a doubled-hulled ship. The Law says that every tanker must be a double hull ship by 2015


read the complete article :
DOUBLE-HULLED TANKERS REDUCE RISK OF SPILLS
0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 01:40 pm
And now they want to do more offshore drilling. How nice for the oil companies not to have to worry about being held responsible for any disasters they might be responsible for.

The destruction to our wildlife is a sin and I feel sorry for the fisherman who have lost their lively hood. I'm sure anyone in the oil industry, or anyone who has profited from the oil industry, is dancing with joy over this decision. Oh wait, I think our President and VP might have some financial interest in this sector of business...
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 03:03 pm
These damages were not compensatory, they were punitive. According to the court, compensation has already been paid. That should mean that those fishermen who lost their livelihoods have been compensated and the purpose of this judgement was just to penalize Exxon. I heard several stories on the news about fishermen saying they were depending on this judgement to make ends meet. That must mean that the compensation paid was not sufficient or that it was not well spent. I would like to hear more from the press about the paid compensation and how it was calculated.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 04:13 pm
engineer wrote:
That must mean that the compensation paid was not sufficient or that


It's almost never sufficient in US courts, IMO.
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 04:16 pm
It isn't likely that, with such a universally hated victim as EXXON, the fishermen would complain that they had been over-compensated. It is also noteworthy that after the spill & cleanup the people of Alaska voted to continue the development of their petroleum reserves on the north slope of that state.

The single hull tankers to which the poster above referred were not a creation of the 1970s at all - notwithstanding the pious pretentions of the author he cites. Single hull ships had been the universal standard of design throughout the 20th century for all such vessels. What happened after 1970 was that, with the long-term closure of the Suez Canal, the average trip taken by these vessels from their then major source in the Persian Gulf to the principal customers (then in Europe), became much longer, and ship design was no longer subject to the physical restrictions of the canal. This profoundly changed the economics of the matter to favor much larger ships. What happened in the 1970s was that the ships simply became much bigger, making the individual effects of any major or minor mishap much greater, but not materially increasing the total consequences per ton shipped. In short the bad consequences became concentrated in fewer, far more dramatic, events - causing them to capture more public attention.

In fact the crew comforts, working conditions and applied technology on the VLCCs were much improved over their less modern predecessors. The crew of the EXXON Valdez was NOT "overworked and underqualified" as the author implies. The facts established in the investigation confirm that the navigation equipment on the bridge WAS functioning accurately, but that, contrary to the operator's policy, the captain was either absent from the bridge during critical moments or too impaired by alcohol intoxication to do his job properly. These were faults for which the environment, and EXXON, paid dearly.

Double hull vessels are, as noted, much more expensive, and they present their own potential hazards (capsizing in the event the hull is punctured at an empty wing tank). However, it is pretty clear now that both the overall economics and safety considerations do strongly favor double hull construction. (U.S. Navy tankers, though smaller, were all built with double hulls, beginning soon after WWII.)

I particularly object to the hyperbole in this section quoted from this much-touted work;
Quote:


Even dull authors need to make a living, and some latitude must be granted them in making their products sufficiently titilating and emotionally appealing to potential readers. Moral outrage is one of several proven techniques for this purpose, apparently filling a need of some bored, unchallenged potential readers. However this overinflated, pretentious bombast should not go unchallenged. The "wasteful societies" whose "heedless practices first made supertankers a necessity" constituted all the advanced societies of the Western World -- prominently including Canada, whose energy consumption per capita leads the world.

Perhaps Hamburger would prefer to freeze in the dark in Ontario.
0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 05:06 pm
oralloy wrote:
engineer wrote:
That must mean that the compensation paid was not sufficient or that


It's almost never sufficient in US courts, IMO.


I heard on the radio that each fisherman will receive $15,000 for the lose of his livelihood. I don't know what line of work they will go into now. The fisheries have never recovered.

Why would anyone think that a corporation has the right to destroy any part the world that we all have to live in? Why are they special? At point do corporations go too far in the name of profit? At what point do we decide they are taking too much away from everyone else? Why do we bow down to these companies like they are gods? They are laughing all the way to their record profits. So I assume Oralloy and George would be fine with Exxon turning their backyards into oil slicks. They would never even think to sue.

Of course the Alaskans voted to continue oil development, they get paid off to keep their mouths shut and they are happy to live in the extra filth for the dollars thrown at them. Money triumphs over the future of a clean earth until it is no longer a livable place. Humans make bad choices.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 06:12 pm
Green Witch wrote:
So I assume Oralloy and George would be fine with Exxon turning their backyards into oil slicks.


Shocked Confused

Huh?!?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 06:15 pm
Green Witch wrote:
I heard on the radio that each fisherman will receive $15,000 for the lose of his livelihood. I don't know what line of work they will go into now. The fisheries have never recovered.


Depends on what you mean by "recovered". The local catch is now about what it was before the accident, and has been for over six years.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 06:28 pm
green witch wrote :

Quote:
So I assume Oralloy and George would be fine with Exxon turning their backyards into oil slicks.


as the saying goes : "not in my backyard !!! " .
if the fishermen lose their livehood and long-term pollution results : TOUGH ! Crying or Very sad

btw i doubt that any cleanup will ever solve the long-term pollution effect .
even the beaches along lake ontario have been polluted by ships dumping their oil sludge into the lake . the beaches often look quite clean , but when waves stir up the sand , the congealed oil keeps coming to the surface - and that's despite the fact that dumping has now been outlawed for more than 20 years .
the U.S. and canadian coastguard are now quite diligent in tracking even small oilslicks and making sure that they will be cleaned up quickly - and will present the bill to the ship owner .
of course , the oil dumped before the ban became into effect will be gradually making its way into the groundwater - YUCK !
hbg
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 06:37 pm
hamburger wrote:
if the fishermen lose their livehood and long-term pollution results : TOUGH ! Crying or Very sad

btw i doubt that any cleanup will ever solve the long-term pollution effect .
even the beaches along lake ontario have been polluted by ships dumping their oil sludge into the lake . the beaches often look quite clean , but when waves stir up the sand , the congealed oil keeps coming to the surface - and that's despite the fact that dumping has now been outlawed for more than 20 years .


But the fishermen did not permanently lose their livelihood. Frankly the catch in the Pacific Northwest has been far more greatly diminished by massive over fishing than by any environmental insults. You are beating a very dead horse.

The evidence is fairly clear that the local environment does indeed recover fairly quickly from such events, contrary to your assertion.

I suspect what you observe on Lake Ontario is a consequence of continuing pollution in a very busy, well-travelled waterway. Small congealed pellets of petroleum aren't particularly harmful. Moreover the stuff was originally found within the earth, and the initial discoveries, both in America and Asia were the result of the observation of naturally occurring seeps on the surface.
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 07:15 pm
the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service doesn't quite share george's rosy outlook .
i can't get the url to work , so had to use the direct address .
i've only shown a small portion of the report .
many reports can be found by googling : "recovery after oilspill" .
the majority of the articles are not particularly cheerful .


http://alaska.fws.gov/media/unalaska/Oil%20Spill%20Fact%20Sheet.pdf

Quote:
Oil has the potential to persist in the environment long after a spill event and has been detected in sediment 30 years after a spill. Oil spills may cause shifts in population structure, species abundance and diversity, and distribution. Habitat loss and the loss of prey items also have the potential to affect fish and wildlife populations .

Oil remains in the environment long after a spill event, especially in areas sheltered from weathering processes, such as the subsurface sediments under gravel shorelines, and in some soft substrates.

However, pelagic and offshore communities are fairly resilient and rebound more quickly than inshore habitats. Although oil is still present in the sediment and coastal areas 15 years after the Exxon Valdez oil spill in Prince William Sound, Alaska, some wildlife populations have recovered. It is believed that continued effects will most likely be restricted to populations that reside or feed in isolated areas that contain oil.
The U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service responds to spills to minimize impacts to trust resources and continues its work long after a spill event. The Service continues assess and monitor the damage to habitat and wildlife and attempts to minimize the long-term effects on new generations of wildlife.


it certainly does not sound as if there will be NO longterm effect .
i notice that they speak of MINIMIZING instead .
hbg
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 07:31 pm
hamburger wrote:
green witch wrote :

Quote:
So I assume Oralloy and George would be fine with Exxon turning their backyards into oil slicks.


as the saying goes : "not in my backyard !!! " .
if the fishermen lose their livehood and long-term pollution results : TOUGH ! Crying or Very sad


Whose view are you expressing? Yours?
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 28 Jun, 2008 07:40 pm
I believe the report you quoted confirms what I said and NOT what you appear to imply. Scientists rarely speak of NO effects or Eliminating them altogether simply because, at some scale, something detectable may remain - even if the remaining "effects" have no measurable consequence on anything we are interested in. The report confirms that biological effects are generally confined to isolated inshore areas where the petroleum remains (due presumably to the lack of mixing, flow or movement). That means they are not observed elsewhere.

If it gratifys you in some way to hold on to these unrealistic and exaggerated notions about the consequences of such spills, it is OK with me. However, if your are going to proselytize these illusions then you should expect to be called on them.

The real truth here is that, by a huge margin, it is the fishermen (and we their consumers) who have depopulated the fisheries of the Northwest, not oil tankers.
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 05:06 pm
Green Witch wrote:
oralloy wrote:
engineer wrote:
That must mean that the compensation paid was not sufficient or that


It's almost never sufficient in US courts, IMO.


I heard on the radio that each fisherman will receive $15,000 for the lose of his livelihood. I don't know what line of work they will go into now. The fisheries have never recovered.

Why would anyone think that a corporation has the right to destroy any part the world that we all have to live in? Why are they special? At point do corporations go too far in the name of profit? At what point do we decide they are taking too much away from everyone else? Why do we bow down to these companies like they are gods? They are laughing all the way to their record profits. So I assume Oralloy and George would be fine with Exxon turning their backyards into oil slicks. They would never even think to sue.

Of course the Alaskans voted to continue oil development, they get paid off to keep their mouths shut and they are happy to live in the extra filth for the dollars thrown at them. Money triumphs over the future of a clean earth until it is no longer a livable place. Humans make bad choices.

I wasn't certain on the compensation. The radio said the average compensation of $15K. Does that mean that fishermen who lost everything got $100K and those who faced only a minor impact got $5K? If the compensation was not sufficient before punitive damages, why not? Were the courts limited? How was just compensation computed? Was there an assumption that pay for a few years would be enough for people to retrain and work in another field? I can't find a link. Does anyone know a good site for this?
0 Replies
 
hamburger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 06:46 pm
engineer :

googling for "compensation akaska oilspill" will give you some links .

this article is from the C.S. Monitor :

Quote:
Anchorage, Alaska - Two decades after the Exxon Valdez supertanker veered off course, slammed into a reef in Prince William Sound, and created the nation's worst oil spill, some Alaskans say they've been hit by another disaster - a legal one.

A US Supreme Court ruling Wednesday trimmed punitive damages for the 1989 catastrophe by at least 80 percent. So, instead of the $2.5 billion that some 32,000 plaintiffs had been awarded, the court decided the damages should equal no more than the $507.5 million already paid in compensation to private plaintiffs. Reaction in Alaska was fast and furious.

"Tragic," said Gov. Sarah Palin.

"Adds insult to injury," said Alaska's congressional delegation in a statement.

"A slap on the wrist" for Exxon, said Tim Joyce, mayor of the fishing hub of Cordova, which was at the center of the disaster.

Not long ago, some Alaskans worried that the fishing hub would sprout "spillionaires" - ordinary people suddenly rich from lump-sum Exxon payouts. Now in Cordova, there is talk of giving up homes, fishing permits, and the town itself, said Riki Ott, a local fisherman, scientist, and environmentalist. "There are some people, they look like they've been shellshocked."

Some residents had already pledged anticipated punitive payments to settle debts. "We didn't spill the oil, you know, and we're the ones being injured by this. Again," said Ms. Ott, who spent much of Wednesday painting protest signs with slogans like: "Guilty Until Proven Wealthy."

Anyone looking to a big punitive award as a source of more compensation had misplaced hopes, said ExxonMobil spokesman Tony Cudmore. "This case was about punishment and whether further punishment was warranted. It was not about compensatory damages."

The company says that after spending $3.4 billion on cleanup, settlements with the Alaskan and US governments and other groups, fines, and various types of compensation, it needed no more punishment. Legitimate claims for compensation were handled swiftly and fairly, Mr. Cudmore said. "Most people who sought compensation were compensated within a year of the spill, and the court recognized that."

The court's majority found that Exxon had acted without "intentional or malicious conduct," and a 1-to-1 ratio of punitive to compensatory damages "is a fair upper limit in such maritime cases," according to the decision penned by Justice David Souter.

Plaintiffs said the court failed to take into account the damages that never were compensated in the first place, due to the quirks of maritime law and the long years it took for environmental impacts to manifest themselves.

For example, the collapse of Prince William Sound's herring population became evident only years after the spill, plaintiffs say. Cordova fisherman and community leader R.J. Kopchak calculated that the area lost $126 million through 2005 because of canceled harvests. He lost about $500,000 in earnings, he said, not to mention his now useless $18,000 worth of herring-fishing equipment that sits under a moss-covered tarp.

Also uncompensated were the lost millions of dollars of wealth held in fishing permits. That wealth vanished when values plunged to as low as 10 percent of prespill levels. Maritime law allowed compensation only when permits were sold at losses. "What we all should have done is sell each other our permits so that we would have had realized losses," Ott says.

Alaskan natives who couldn't gather fish, game, and meat from oiled waters and beaches got a $20 million settlement, the estimated cost of replacing wild foods with store-bought substitutes, not the $160 million that plaintiff economists believed reflected true cultural damages, said Lloyd Miller, an attorney for the plaintiffs.

ExxonMobil has argued that Prince William Sound recovered long ago from the spill, and that any ecological changes - including the herring collapse - are due to other factors.

For some, the spill's impact goes beyond dollars.

"The biggest thing that hurt the most that I lost were the dreams and goals that I had," said local fisherman and artist Mike Webber, sitting on a Cordova dock a month before the Supreme Court ruling.

Mr. Webber drew on his Tlingit Indian heritage last year to carve a "shame pole" ridiculing ExxonMobil's unpaid debts. "I've been wanting to do a healing pole, [but] I haven't found out anything to put on the pole to tell that we've healed," he said.



source :
C. S. MONITOR
0 Replies
 
engineer
 
  1  
Reply Sun 29 Jun, 2008 07:54 pm
Thanks, I found those links, but they didn't have the kind of detail I was looking for. I think it is fair for the court to modify damages if the full extent of the situation was not apparent before.
0 Replies
 
 

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