1
   

So, what really happened?

 
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 09:15 am
Tartarin wrote:
Another oddity from September '01 which needs re-examination is the apparently large sale of airlines futures just prior to the attack.


Here's some about that (from the same source as in my previous post):

Sept. 6-7, 2001 -- Put options (a speculation that the stock will go down) totaling 4,744 are purchased on United Air Lines stock, as opposed to only 396 call options (speculation that the stock will go up). This is a dramatic and abnormal increase in sales of put options. Many of the United puts are purchased through Deutschebank/A.B. Brown, a firm managed until 1998 by the current executive director of the CIA, A.B. "Buzzy" Krongard. [Source: The Herzliyya International Policy Institute for Counterterrorism (ICT), http://www.ict.org.il/ , Sept. 21, 2001 (Note:The ICT article on possible terrorist insider trading appeared eight days after the 9/11 attacks.); The New York Times; The Wall Street Journal; The San Francisco Chronicle, Sept. 29, 2001]

Sept. 10, 2001 -- Put options totaling 4,516 are purchased on American Airlines as compared to 748 call options. [Source: Herzliyya Institute - above]

Sept. 6-11, 2001 -- No other airlines show any similar trading patterns to those experienced by United and American. The put option purchases on both airlines were 600 percent above normal. This at a time when Reuters (Sept. 10) issues a business report stating, "Airline stocks may be poised to take off."

Sept. 6-10, 2001 -- Highly abnormal levels of put options are purchased in Merrill Lynch, Morgan Stanley, AXA Re(insurance) which owns 25 percent of American Airlines, and Munich Re. All of these companies are directly impacted by the Sept. 11 attacks. [Source: ICT, above]

2001-2002 -- It has been documented that the CIA, the Israeli Mossad, and many other intelligence agencies monitor stock trading in real time using highly advanced programs reported to be descended from Promis software. This is to alert national intelligence services of just such kinds of attacks. Promis was reported as recently as June 2001 to be in Osama bin Laden's possession and both the FBI and the Justice Department have confirmed its use for US intelligence gathering through at least summer 2002. This would confirm that CIA had additional advance warning of imminent attacks. [Sources: The Washington Times, June 15, 2001; Fox, Oct. 16, 2001]
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 09:45 am
And if you happen to be thinking what you've read up to now was off the wall, then read the ones below.

This is what I consider falls into the category of "CIA assassins dressed as bums on the grassy knoll"-type stuff:

Quote:
Sept. 4-5, 2001 - A freshman at Brooklyn's New Utrecht High School who had recently emigrated from Pakistan reportedly predicts the destruction of the World Trade Center a week prior to the 9-11 attacks, according to the JournalNews newspaper in White Plains, NY. Citing "three police sources and a city official familiar with the investigation" as well as confirmation from the FBI that the bureau had received this information, the paper reported that in the midst of a heated class discussion the student pointed to the World Trade Center from a third story window and said, "Do you see those two buildings? They won't be standing there next week." New York City Board of Education spokeswoman Catie Marshall confirmed for the JournalNews "that school officials reported the matter to police within minutes of the Sept. 11 attack" and students told the paper that "FBI agents and NYPD detectives descended on the school on Sept. 13 to interrogate the student [who made the prediction] and others in his class," which was "an English class for Arab-American students." [Source: The JournalNews, Oct. 11, 2001]

Sept. 10, 2001 - The Houston Chronicle reports the FBI was notified of a fifth grader from a Dallas suburb who told his teacher, "Tomorrow, World War III will begin. It will begin in the United States, and the United States will lose." The Chronicle was unclear on specifically when Garland, Texas school district officials told the FBI about the incident, but it was some time between Sept. 13, 2001 and the story's publication date of Sept. 19, 2001. [Source: Houston Chronicle, Sept. 19, 2001]


The two newspaper links have expired, meaning (perhaps) if you sign up and pay their fee you might find this in their archives. Or maybe not.

I'm not going to bother...
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hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 09:56 am
Scullllyyyyyyyy...........Shocked
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sozobe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 10:15 am
Heh...

Millions of people are saying millions of wacko things all over the place, and something this huge can focus it all and make it seem ominous. To again use Columbia as an example, I'm quite sure that somewhere, at some point, someone said, "It's gonna explode." That doesn't mean that the person who said so actually had any prior knowledge or caused it to happen.

Intelligence agencies are getting vast quantities of information thrown at them, and have to separate the wheat from the chaff. I dunno how much turns out to be chaff, but I bet it's a really, really high percentage. There were some prime kernels of wheat that were tossed in the chaff pile, or were passed along endlessly for someone else to decide if they were wheat or chaff. Definite incompetence. But my skepticism is levelled at both the Bush admin and conspiracy theorists.

I'm keeping an open mind, and agree that skepticism and questioning are called for.
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 11:16 am
The curious case of Mike Vreeland:

Quote:
Aug. 11 or 12, 2001 - U.S. Navy Lt. Delmart "Mike" Vreeland, jailed in Toronto on US fraud charges and claiming to be an officer with US naval intelligence, writes details of the pending WTC attacks and seals them in an envelope, which he gives to Canadian authorities. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court Records]

Sept. 14, 2001 - Canadian jailers open the sealed envelope from Mike Vreeland in Toronto and see that it describes attacks against the WTC and Pentagon. The US Navy subsequently states that Vreeland was discharged as a seaman in 1986 for unsatisfactory performance and has never worked in intelligence. [Source: The Toronto Star, Oct. 23, 2001; Toronto Superior Court records]

Jan. 10, 2002 - In a call from a speaker phone in open court, attorneys for Mike Vreeland call the Pentagon's switchboard operator, who confirms that Vreeland is indeed a naval lieutenant on active duty. She provides an office number and a direct dial phone extension to his office in the Pentagon. [Source: Attorney Rocco Galati; Toronto Superior Court records]


Being unfamiliar with this man, his case, and his contentions, I Googled him, and it appears nothing has been posted online since June of 2002, or nearly a year.

Is he still in Canada, avoiding extradition?
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 11:49 am
PDiddie -- One of our old colleagues at Abuzz and I went after that one hammer and tongs. My conclusion was that there wasn't much to hang a hat on. HOWEVER, I did get interested in his Vancouver (as I remember) attorney, Galati. If Blatham hasn't kayaked to Mongolia, maybe he could find more.

Mike Ruppert was a chief source on that one. Problematic.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 11:52 am
So,....really...

...there are two things in this exhaustive compendium that stand out, glaringly, to me.

This:

Quote:
Sept. 11, 2001 - For 50 minutes, from 8:15 AM until 9:05 AM, with it widely known within the FAA and the military that four planes have been simultaneously hijacked and taken off course, no one notifies the President of the United States. It is not until 9:30 that any Air Force planes are scrambled to intercept, but by then it is too late. This means that the National Command Authority waited for 75 minutes before scrambling aircraft, even though it was known that four simultaneous hijackings had occurred. [Sources: CNN; ABC; MSNBC; Los Angeles Times; The New York Times]


and this:

Quote:
Oct. 29, 2001 - The Bush Administration drafts "an executive order that would usher in a new era of secrecy for presidential records and allow an incumbent president to withhold a former president's papers even if the former president wanted to make them public," wrote the Washington Post. The order also required members of the public to prove "at least a demonstrated, specific need'" for a president's papers to be released. Critics contend this would overturn the 1978 Presidential Records Act, which releases documents after 12 years. The White House maintained that a Supreme Court decision in 1977 allows presidents various privileges for their records. [Source: Washington Post, Nov. 1, 2001, Wa Po link here]


I would like to know a bit more about WTF is going on, and I believe my government owes me an explanation. Evil or Very Mad
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 12:08 pm
The responses must be: demand that Congress overturn the executive order and never vote for someone who hasn't guaranteed full openness and access after 12 years.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 12:10 pm
Actually, PDiddie, my response should have been, ME TOO! Anyone who can continue to look at this stuff and say, Pshaw! these conspiracists! will fully deserve what they get. They certainly don't deserve (or respect) our Constitution.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 03:11 pm
Back on one of Chaiyah's threads, Walter posted a link to an article, and one paragraph in it struck me as being relevant to this thread, too:

Der Spiegel wrote:
1993 kam das Buch "Case Closed" des Zeitgeschichtlers Gerald Posner auf den Markt, das die gängigsten Theorien bis ins Detail entzauberte. Posner kam zu dem Schluss, Ursache aller Spekulationen sei die Unfähigkeit der Amerikaner, sich einzugestehen, dass jeder Irre mit einem handelsüblichen Gewehr den Präsidenten der Weltmacht USA treffen kann.


OK - translation:

Quote:
1993 saw the publication of "Case Closed", by the historian Gerald Posner, who debunked the most common [conspiracy] theories [about JFK] in great detail. Posner eventually came to the conclusion that the cause of all these speculations was the inability of the Americans to admit to themselves, that just any crazy man who owns a gun of the kind you can buy legally, can in fact shoot the president of world power USA.
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Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 04:56 pm
Okay, but that was Posner...
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 05:02 pm
I'd never heard of Posner ... who's he?
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PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 05:16 pm
Posner's interview on CNN this week regarding his book Why America Slept left even him surprised at the cover-up being exercised among the Saudis about al-Qaeda and 9/11.

Here you go, nimh:

The Indian Express

edited to add the transcript of the interview I saw:

CNN.com/American Morning
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 05:16 pm
Here are the last few paragraphs of a Paul Thompson essay (he's the one who did the "timeline"):

Quote:
Was NORAD Merely Grossly Incompetent?
NORAD seems to have no respect for the truth. In late 2001, Major General Larry Arnold wrote how NORAD's 9/11 response was "immediate" and "impressive." Moving into outright fiction, Arnold claimed, "we were able to identify, track and escort suspected hijacked aircraft after the initial attacks," "our reaction time outpaced the process in some instances," "our well-practiced rapid response capability may very well have prevented additional surprise attacks on the American homeland saving countless lives," and so on. [American Defender, 2001] With Arnold sitting next to him, Major General Craig McKinley admitted in the May 2003 hearings, "We had not positioned prior to September 11, 2001, for the scenario that took place that day." [New Jersey Star-Ledger, 5/24/03] "McKinley admitted that NORAD was utterly unprepared for the attack." [UPI, 5/23/03] He called NORAD's 9/11 stance "a Cold War vestige." [New Jersey Star-Ledger, 5/24/03] NORAD now claims to be so incompetent that they had to rely on the FAA for all radar information, and even had to go through the FAA to communicate with their own pilots. [Knight Ridder, 5/24/03]

NORAD's explanations about 9/11 have never made sense, and their new eagerness to be seen as an incompetent "Cold War vestige" is equally suspect. NORAD officials brazenly lied throughout their testimony. In the new NORAD timeline they presented, they even claimed that CNN first began showing images of the World Trade Center on fire at 8:57 when it is easily verifiable that CNN began doing this at 8:48. [CNN, 9/11/01, NORAD Testimony, 5/23/03] Like their many other lies, one can see how this lie serves to cover up the extent of their failure. Unfortunately, the Independent Commission did not require that testimony be given under oath, so these officials cannot be charged with perjury.

One Toronto Star columnist wrote in May 2003, "The great majority of people, sickened and overwhelmed by the horror of the attacks, unquestioningly accepts the White House version [of what happened on 9/11]. Many thousands, however, are patiently stitching together the documented evidence and noting the huge holes in the fabric of that official story." [Toronto Star, 5/18/03] A Sarasota Herald-Tribune columnist recently called the "restrained - even failed - standard US military air defense protocols while the attacks were occurring" a "real mystery" that deserves a serious investigation. [Sarasota Herald-Tribune, 5/20/03] But most of the mainstream media doesn't appear at all interested in these mysteries.

Given the many warnings that came before 9/11, it is not only NORAD that deserves blame for the utter failure to defend the skies on 9/11. Thousands of lives could have been saved if standard procedures were properly followed. Perhaps only those in the World Trade Center's North Tower need have died, if the FAA and NORAD did their job properly. No wonder the government passed a law making it difficult for relatives of the 9/11 terrorists to sue anyone but the terrorists. [Los Angeles Times, 1/17/02] There has been no accountability for all these failures and needless deaths. There still has not been one demonstrable firing or punishment for any government employee because of 9/11. Many unanswered questions remain, and are likely to remain unanswered until people put pressure on the media and government to finally stop covering up what happened on 9/11.

Also see the essay, An Interesting Day: Bush on 9/11, for more analysis on related topics. For more details on what happened on 9/11, see a detailed timeline about that day. Comments can be directed to: paulthompson22b @yahoo.com (remove the space). Thanks to Melissa Kavonic, Allan Wood, Allan Duncan, and Derek Mitchell for their assistance. See also 9/11 Citizens Watch, a group that is trying to keep pressure on the Independent Commission.


Nimh: Posner is a lawyer turned glitzy writer and investigative reporter with frequent appearances on network and cable TV news and entertainment progrms. Nothing wrong with that I guess -- I just wouldn't put him in the skepticism-free category! (I don't hold any particular point of view re Kennedy -- some questions, no answers!)
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 05:18 pm
Link for the above: http://www.unansweredquestions.org/timeline/main/essayairdefense.html
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 05:55 pm
PDiddie wrote:
Here you go, nimh: The Indian Express


oh yeah i read that! just hadnt connected the name ...

thanks y'all for the posner tips.
0 Replies
 
PDiddie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 05:58 pm
Tartarin, excerpting from the unansweredquestions.com website, wrote:
Also see the essay, An Interesting Day: Bush on 9/11,


Well, I just did and boy, am I pissed.

I've had a real bee in my bonnet for a long time over the way Dim Son behaved at that elementary school on the morning of September 11, and reading that just made me angrier at his stupidity and incompetence (and that's the best-case scenario).

"An Interesting Day"

It makes it seem that if it were possible that there was a huge conspiracy, he's too goddamn dumb to be aware of it going on all around him.
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 06:05 pm


This second one is interesting not just because of the info it gives, but of the startling snapshot of American TV reporting. Damn with what speed do they rush through a bookload of information! Over here a guy like that - if they would put him on TV, he'd get an hour, or half an hour in any case, you know what I'm saying?

Not saying good or bad - you could also say, wow, how they manage to give an executive summary - but you gotta wonder how much info goes lost to the American viewers, if even the 24/7 news station just pants through bulks of info like that.
0 Replies
 
Tartarin
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 06:05 pm
'Cause he was skeered and thought the nice teacher would take care of him?
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nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Sep, 2003 06:16 pm
PDiddie wrote:
"Also see the essay, An Interesting Day: Bush on 9/11"

Well, I just did and boy, am I pissed.


Read it too ... Da-amn ... Shocked
0 Replies
 
 

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