patiodog
 
  3  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 05:57 am
It's funny you mention WA state, TTH. When I was volunteering in various capacities at the Seattle-King County Humane Society, there was a big pit bull problem. Probably still was. We received pit bull bite cases every other day, it seemed like, to sit through their rabies observation period and/or to be euthanized. The socioeconomic angle could not have been more obvious, though: almost all of these dogs came from Federal Way and Renton, many of them bore scars from maltreatment. Scary, scary dogs. Had be convinced that there was something fundamentally different about pits.

Now I work at a shelter in Wisconsin, where I've also volunteered for the past 5 years. Big pit bull problem here -- i.e., there are too many of them. A hugely disproportionate number come through the door as strays and surrenders. Except for a seizure of 50 dogs from an "alleged" fighting dog breeding operation* a couple of years ago, though, you don't see a lot of scars on these animals, and they act as thought they've been treated like any other dog. And, given the number of unwanted/neglected pit bulls in the community, it is remarkable how few we have to hold as bite cases. Right now, for instance, we are holding a ferret, a handful of cats, a pair of Jack Russell terriers, a husky cross, and a bull mastiff. People who work at the shelter do not exercise extra caution with pits, as they do with German shepherds, Chow mixes (we don't get purebreds), spaniels, Chihuahuas, and (God forbid) Shar-pei crosses.

Like Cow Doc, I agree that there are anatomical differences between pit bulls and most other dogs that make them more dangerous. Same goes for Rottweillers, though, and there's no national outcry about the dangerouus Rottie any more. Yes, I have a relatively conscientious dog owner who had to destroy his 2 pits because he couldn't control a violence streak in the dogs, but I've known owners of other breeds and mixes have to do the same thing.

Are some breeds more dangerous than others? Yes, obviously. But I've seen first hand fundamental differences in the temperaments of pit bull populations in 2 different regions of the country, and I'm convinced the the bulk of the problem is that at the moment the preferred breed among people who want a dog for purposes of intimidation (whether it be for criminal purposes, paranoia, or to make them feel like they've got a bigger dick) is the pit bull terrier. If you take pit bulls away from these owners and give them Rotweillers in their stead, then the Rottie is the feared dog breed. Give them huskies, and the husky is the feared dog breed (and, in my experience, probably should be).

This coming from someone who works with society's unwanted animals every day.



*The court pursued drug charges against the defendant and more or less ignored the animal cruelty charges -- resulting in the additional animal cruelty of stuffing 50 dogs into protective custody for months on end.
TTH
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 06:16 am
@patiodog,
WA State is where I live patiodog and yes we are still having a lot of problems with pit bull attacks. Some cities are just banning them. Now insurance companies (homeowners) are asking if you own one. If you do, then they won't insure you or the insurance is so high that it is not affordable.
patiodog
 
  2  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 06:34 am
@TTH,
Insurance companies everywhere have higher premiums for certain dogs breeds: http://www.bankrate.com/brm/news/insurance/bad-dog-list1.asp
Bella Dea
 
  5  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 08:45 am
I just thought I'd throw something in here....
You all are familiar with Zoe, my gentle giant boxer. The one who is afraid of plastic bags and thinks she's a lap dog.

Well, the boxer breed is not known for agressivness. however, I've recently had to put up a Beware of Dog sign on our fence because she's gone after a few of the neighbors that have come up to the fence to see/pet her. She's never done that before. And we don't raise her to be vicious. Quite the opposite. She hasn't bitten anyone and has just snapped and growled at them but still....it's very unlike Zoe. I don't trust her around Ade now and won't leave them alone if Zoe is eating or chewing on a bone for fear that she'll act out.

The point I am trying to make is that ALL dogs have the potential to be vicious attack dogs. It's in their blood, it's in their genes. They've evolved from wolves but they are still animals and they are all unpredictable.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 08:56 am
@Ticomaya,
Ticomaya wrote:

Pit bulls ....

It is my opinion that the pit bull "breed" is very dangerous, regardless of the training the dog has received. While some pits have the ability to be nice pets, I believe their inherent nature is to attack, and when they bite they clamp down and don't let go. The anecdotal evidence is overwhelming.

This thread is to discuss the topic, and to post news accounts of pit bull attacks/maulings/killings. I've been meaning to start a thread for some time now.

My two cents worth, I would not own a pit bull. Also, I haven't read the entire thread, but there is an opinion among some people that any mean nature exhibited by any breed of dog is brought on by mistreating the animal, or by some environmental cause, that any dog, even a pit bull can be harmless if treated properly. I disagree with that, and I think that is your point, that some breeds have natural tendencies bred into them. A pit bull may be okay, but one day something will trigger the instinct to kill, and there is nothing that was done to the do to cause it, it just has the nature.

Another breed that has been known to kill children has been the German police dog, I recall at least a case or two. Also, certain little dogs would also kill, I am convinced, if they happened to be bigger, but since they are little, all they can do is bite, but I have a natural dislike for certain little dogs. I favor farm type dogs since that is what I grew up with, such as border collie or border collie mix type dogs, etc.
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 09:02 am
@Bella Dea,
Bella, I had a lovable mutt growing up, he was so sweet and wimpy and loving. However, he was also very protective. At home or in the yard, most people would be scared out of their wits with him. He wasn't big - I would say a medium size dog, but his bark was frightening and quite honestly I think he meant business. It was instinctive to him to protect us and his territory.

This same mean dog was as sweet as could be when I took him for a walk. Same dog - just different territory.
0 Replies
 
Linkat
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 09:03 am
@okie,
Oh and my mutt was thought to be part Shepard.
0 Replies
 
patiodog
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 04:49 pm
@Bella Dea,
Quote:
Well, the boxer breed is not known for agressivness. however, I've recently had to put up a Beware of Dog sign on our fence because she's gone after a few of the neighbors that have come up to the fence to see/pet her. She's never done that before.


Attitude changes can be a sign of health problems, Bella. (I know Zoe's got a history already.) Might be a good time for a check-up...
0 Replies
 
TTH
 
  0  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 05:12 pm
@patiodog,
My insurance company only wanted to know if I have a rott, pit bull or chow.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 05:20 pm
Yes, insurance companies who write Homeowner's or other premises liability coverage want to know whether there are dogs and whether they are a dangerous breed. At least some will not write insurance when pittbulls are present.

It is stories like this that should give everybody at least some pause for thought. They are more common than those who love the breed sometimes want to admit:

Quote:
LAKE ELSINORE ---- Jennifer Ruckel never saw it coming, she said on a recent afternoon. One minute she was sitting on her bed talking to her sister Robin, laughing and watching her 18-month-old son Taylor dance on the rug at their feet ---- the next, their 30 seconds of terror began.

With no provocation or warning, the family's 5-year-old pit bull, Molly, suddenly lunged across the room and grabbed Taylor's head in its jaws and began shaking the boy like a rag doll.

"The dog just snapped; it changed from a protective, loving dog to a beast within a second," Jennifer said of the March 31 attack.
http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2004/04/11/news/californian/23_29_184_10_04.txt
0 Replies
 
Green Witch
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 06:57 pm
@Bella Dea,
Quote:
I've recently had to put up a Beware of Dog sign


You should change that to "Guard Dog on Duty". By putting up a sign that says "beware" you are indicating that your dog is known to be dangerous. If Zoe does bite someone, and they decide to sue, the victim will actually have a stronger case if the "Beware" sign was present.

0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Tue 30 Sep, 2008 07:43 pm
@Bella Dea,
Hey Bella, I remember when I was thinking about getting Diamond I was worried because the father dog, which lived next door to me, was often aggressive at our back fence. Face to face he was very gentle so I didn't know what to make of this.

I think it was eBeth who pointed me towards what they call "fence agression". I read up on it to ease my fears about potential pup's agression but since it wasn't my dog I didn't read up on "cures".

You might want to take a look at fence aggression and see if it applies to Zoe.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 12:31 am
@Bella Dea,
my dog is deathly afraid of black trash bags, i mean seriously i have to get a video of it. its absolutely hysterical, and sad.

she tries to flee from them to the point of almost strangling herself.one time one blew on her in the street and she started attacking it HILARIOUS!!!
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 12:33 am
@okie,
hate top break this to ya, pitbulls are the epitome of farm dog, in fact i think they were used quite widely in pulling plows...
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Wed 1 Oct, 2008 12:43 am
@TTH,
one thing i have to hammer through.

pitbulls who exhibted signs of aggression towards humans were culled.

period.

bred to not attack humans. all this "its in their genes" talk, yeah, its in their genes NOT to attack humans.

maybe its because i know a lot of what i would call "professional" pitbull owners, and pitbull lovers, i have yet to meet someone that owns a pitbull who has attacked any person.

strange i would say, so many pitbull attacks, but i know so many people who own them. you woulld figure id meet someone who could attest to this cliche...
most likely the reason is because i dont associate with people who dont take care of their animals. ive quit being friends with two people because they liked to fight their pitbulls.

my pitbulll hasnt once exhibited any aggression at all, but if i say so myself i am extremly good at raising dogs, and pets in general. perhaps that is why.

TTH
 
  0  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 02:34 pm
@OGIONIK,
"The dogs were tugging and pulling on the person, and there was a large amount of blood," sheriff's spokesman John Urquhart said. "When the deputy approached, one of the dogs looked up and his mouth was covered in blood."
The officer fired his pistol, hitting the dog in the side. The officer struck the second dog in the chest before it ran off. His third shot killed the first dog.

A sergeant arrived and found the second dog across the street.

"The dog was still aggressive, so the sergeant killed it by firing two rounds from his shotgun," Urquhart said.

The woman -- 5 feet tall and about 115 pounds -- suffered severe bite wounds and lacerations all over her body, Urquhart said.

James Stine, a neighbor and a co-worker of Travis Cunningham, said that he had never seen the dogs show aggression toward people. Stine said the dogs were gentle and playful and had even been in the company of small children without trouble.

"They were really well-trained and well-behaved," Stine said. "They were playful and would lick you silly. That's why I was so surprised when I heard what happened."

That is what ^ they said.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/378246_pitbull09.html
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 02:45 pm
@OGIONIK,
OGIONIK wrote:

one thing i have to hammer through.

pitbulls who exhibted signs of aggression towards humans were culled.

period.

bred to not attack humans. all this "its in their genes" talk, yeah, its in their genes NOT to attack humans.

maybe its because i know a lot of what i would call "professional" pitbull owners, and pitbull lovers, i have yet to meet someone that owns a pitbull who has attacked any person.

strange i would say, so many pitbull attacks, but i know so many people who own them. you woulld figure id meet someone who could attest to this cliche...
most likely the reason is because i dont associate with people who dont take care of their animals. ive quit being friends with two people because they liked to fight their pitbulls.

my pitbulll hasnt once exhibited any aggression at all, but if i say so myself i am extremly good at raising dogs, and pets in general. perhaps that is why.


I believe you when you say you are great with dogs O. I believe you love your dogs and they love you. I believe that you believe with all your heart what you are saying.

But it would be extremely foolish to dismiss so many accounts of loving, friendly, happy family pets who have, without warning and without provocation, suddenly turned viscious and inflicted serious and sometimes deadly injury to some unsuspecting child or adult. And when so often, by a substantial margin over any other breed, the breed identified in such attacks is the pittbull, that simply cannot be wished away or denied on the basis that your own dog(s) have not done that.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Oct, 2008 03:03 pm
I should acknowledge that the Rottweiler is also developing a nasty reputation for dangerous attacks. This may be that the Rottweiler is more often chosen to be the macho or guard dog as Pittbulls fall out of favor.

This provides some interesting information including some support for the 'irresponsible owner theory':
Quote:
Due to the popularity and prevalence of the Pit Bull in American households, the breed was responsible for a majority of the deadly dog attacks in the 1980s according to the American Veterinary Medical Society. And according to the CDC statistically, the Pit Bull is more likely than other dog breeds to attack or bite a second time after an initial incident.

According to some sources, Pit Bulls seem to display less inhibition for attacking people that are much bigger than themselves which explains why just as many adults, as compared to children, are attacked by Pit Bulls. This is in contrast to the attack history of other breeds of dogs.

The Pit Bull is disproportionately stronger in its bite due to the greater degree of muscular development around its jaw as compared to other dogs of the same size.

While Pit Bull enthusiasts defend the breed against negative press accounts of attacks on people, statistics prove otherwise. Likely the statistics are negatively impacted due to the types of individuals that tend to raise Pit Bulls with inappropriate disciplinary styles. Because of these irresponsible dog owners, Pit Bulls often have a menacing presence in some communities and essentially become weapons similar to loaded guns in the hands of children and unstable adults.

Professor Robert Plum, retired from California State University of Chino, reports that 1 dog in 55 will bite someone seriously on an annual basis. Furthermore, his study reports that 1 in16 bites from Pit Bulls result in serious injury as compared to 1 in 295 bites from Dobermans and 1 in 156 German Sheperds.
http://www.keanelaw.com/practice_areas/dog-bites4.cfm


But many of the attacks recorded in this thread and elsewhere cannot be explained away by any kind of 'irresponsible owner' theory.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 02:10 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

OGIONIK wrote:

one thing i have to hammer through.

pitbulls who exhibted signs of aggression towards humans were culled.

period.

bred to not attack humans. all this "its in their genes" talk, yeah, its in their genes NOT to attack humans.

maybe its because i know a lot of what i would call "professional" pitbull owners, and pitbull lovers, i have yet to meet someone that owns a pitbull who has attacked any person.

strange i would say, so many pitbull attacks, but i know so many people who own them. you woulld figure id meet someone who could attest to this cliche...
most likely the reason is because i dont associate with people who dont take care of their animals. ive quit being friends with two people because they liked to fight their pitbulls.

my pitbulll hasnt once exhibited any aggression at all, but if i say so myself i am extremly good at raising dogs, and pets in general. perhaps that is why.


I believe you when you say you are great with dogs O. I believe you love your dogs and they love you. I believe that you believe with all your heart what you are saying.

But it would be extremely foolish to dismiss so many accounts of loving, friendly, happy family pets who have, without warning and without provocation, suddenly turned viscious and inflicted serious and sometimes deadly injury to some unsuspecting child or adult. And when so often, by a substantial margin over any other breed, the breed identified in such attacks is the pittbull, that simply cannot be wished away or denied on the basis that your own dog(s) have not done that.


i think this is due to backayrd breeders, and the impurity of the breeds in general..

when i see the dogs that attack, most recently a 3 year old who died from a pitbull , i can tell they are obviously not purebred.

but perhaps i am wrong, i dont know.
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Mon 1 Dec, 2008 02:13 pm
@OGIONIK,
lol i still say to take my dog you are gonna have to take a walk through some gunfire.

that last incident resparked people wanting to ban the breed.

have fun. and i wish them sincerely, good luck.
 

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