ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 03:31 pm
This is a little close to home, in that Pacco, who I got at somewhere between age six and nine, had balls of fire on occasion. I always controlled him, somewhat by obedience, somewhat by halter, and mostly by watching his access to the outer world closely. I could tell he was a toughie from the times he rode in the car with me, before I got the car crate. He tore the seat belts, and that ain't easy.

I think corgis do derive from spitz, if I remember right.

This was tricky in the gallery. I wouldn't let him past the gate from the drawing studio, and my business partner mostly didn't either. But, since we had paintings in the studio part too, visitors didn't watch the gate like we did. He never went after people, but if someone came in with a dog, I couldn't trust that would always work out. In any case, I always had control, which, yes, required some attention. Years went by and it was ok. Then one day someone let him out the studio gate at the same time there was a dog barking at the front door, virtually all glass.. the dog seeing Pacco through the glass and past the interior gate. Someone opened the front door and Pacco - now past two barriers - went after the dog or the dog went after him, I dunno as I was just turning the corner from the studio. Dogfight, and Pacco nipped the dog. Either I or my business partner pulled him away, I think it was me, giving useless commands on approach, or maybe not so useless.. I remember lifting him as in a dream.. Talk about adrenalin rush. Anyway, the owner and I exchanged misery and phone numbers and talked later that evening, assured each other about rabies shots, etc.
She blamed her own dog, but I might say blame was at least even, and probably did.

Well, what to say. I could believe statistics that pits, full breed or not, may bite less than other dogs in general. But it's hard to deny their potential for major trauma/fatalities, and it's hard for me to deny that once they get going the average owner can stop them. And hard to deny there are many pits/et al who make it through their lives without committing horrid incidents.

I don't have any bright solutions. I don't want to just go around killing all dogs who are part or full pit (or other of the significant trauma groups).
I'd like to see aggressiveness bred out, but I know that is another kind of dream.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 03:40 pm
Quote:
Woman Attacked By Pit Bulls Grateful To Passerby
5 Dogs Escaped Yard On Southwest Side[/url]

CHICAGO (CBS) -- A young mother of four from the Southwest Side survived a vicious pit bull attack Thursday afternoon with help from a Good Samaritan.

CBS 2's Vince Gerasole reports Gabriela Munoz is hospitalized, recovering from her injuries, but has no anger for the dogs' owner.

"I am just thankful that the man helped me and that I am here," Munoz said.

She is bandaged and bruised with bites covering her entire body.

Munoz says she was walking to pick up her kids from school when five pit bulls appeared from nowhere. They gnawed at her coat, bit through her pants and knocked her to the ground. Frightened, she tried to fight back with her umbrella.

"I was kicking and punching," she said. She tried to use her hands to protect her face and neck.

The owner, Cristian Hidalgo, ran to Munoz's aid. He says the dogs broke free from his backyard.

"Most of the blame should be put on me because I guess I didn't shut the door properly to make sure it was closed," Hidalgo said Thursday.

...


Yep ... it's the owner's fault, not the dogs'. How many times have I heard the "someone didn't close the gate properly" defense??

No, don't blame the dogs. It's not their fault their owner left open the gate, forcing them to run down the street attacking innocent passers by.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 04:01 pm
I see your point, re the gate as red herring.

Even I, dog lover par excellance, would not want a pit bull charging at me, much less more than one.

We did also have a doberman resident in our gallery/studio, from puppyhood on and off, and a deaf cocker spaniel. The dobie was the powderpuff, in contrast to Mr. Corgi McBurr.
I believe people who say their pits are gentle, having known that dobie very well. But not all people who say that.

Or I might figure gentled, instead of gentle. I guess it's possible that dobie would get in a fight, but I think only if some other dog attacked his loved Pacco and the cocker spaniel, or, his owner, which would be fairly unlikely, as she could breathe fire too, if called on. But, I'll say it's possible.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 04:16 pm
tico, what would your suggestion be regarding the existing pitbull population?
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 04:20 pm
Addendum. I probably don't want to breed aggressiveness in general out. I'd have to think about that some more, but off hand, no. But selecting for hyperaggressive and training past that, I spit.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 04:45 pm
dagmaraka wrote:
tico, what would your suggestion be regarding the existing pitbull population?


Well, I don't suggest mass euthanasia.

And while I don't yet embrace a complete ban, I do lean that way. But in order to strike a balance between the competing interests of the innocent public, and the pit bull owners of the world, I advocate a compromise whereby local jurisdictions adopt a highly regulating ordinance that attempts to address the particular concerns with pits, which ordinances should contain the following requirements, and very high fines for violations:
    [color=blue][b]Higher annual licensing fees; Higher ($100,000) liability insurance policy requirements; The dog's registration number should be tattooed on every registered pit; Registered pits must be spayed or neutered; Requirements that every pit must be properly confined in a "secure enclosure" when on its owner's property; "Secure enclosures" must have secure sides of at least 8 feet in height, or have a secure top; "Secure enclosures" must have sides that embed at least 1 foot into the ground, or have a secure bottom; If a pit is away from its enclosure, it must be securely leashed and muzzled; Large warning signs warning "DANGER -- PIT BULL" must be posted at the dog owner's property;[/b][/color]
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 05:17 pm
The eight feet is a problem already as six is top (for no reason I understand) throughout many jurisdictions of the land.

Back later.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 05:22 pm
But some of this is silly if your pitbull or fractional pitbull is a sissy.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 05:30 pm
ossobuco wrote:
The eight feet is a problem....


I'd say a greater problem is a pit bull that gets out of an inadequate enclosure, osso.

In any case, the jurisdiction that adopts this ordinance can make an exception to their zoning regulations.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 05:32 pm
ossobuco wrote:
But some of this is silly if your pitbull or fractional pitbull is a sissy.


Are you suggesting these rules should only apply to the non-sissy pits?
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 05:39 pm
As far as I'm concerned the same situation applies to pet tigers.
0 Replies
 
boomerang
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 06:32 pm
I think it really is a combination of nature and nurture. I've always had companion dogs (Dalmations) and when Mo wanted a certain puppy (a herding breed) I really read up on them.

I came across a website talking about the behavioral characteristics of certain breed types that contained a discussion on "fighting breeds" specifically the mastiff/bull and terrier mixes (aka the pit bull).

Quote:

Finally the Fighting Dog group human selection has enormously increased territorial behavior, intra-species aggressiveness and decreased sensitivity to pain. In addition these dogs are selected for extreme focus on the task at hand. Perhaps the kill portion of hunting behaviors has been retained although they share with the guardian breeds the supression of the seek and chase portion of predatory behavior. Fighting dogs, if poorly trained and improperly socialized can be quite dangerous to other dogs and to people that they do not recognize as members of their own "pack". Their reduced sensitivity to pain and their great focus enhance this danger. It is can be very difficult to stop them once they go into "fighting mode". The absence of the "seek and chase" aspect of hunting behaviors often lulls inexperienced owners into a false sense of security.


Lots more good info at: http://netpet.batw.net/articles/choosing.dog.frame.html

I have known some lovely pit bulls. I would hate to see the breed eliminated. I think most good pit bull owners wouldn't mind seeing some kind of permit required to own one. How that would be handled or enforced I have no idea.
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 06:32 pm
I'd just roll over and agree, but that I know, or knew, a gentle doberman, not all that far from a champion either.

Well, I am biased, I don't get the whole breeding thing. I think dogs in general are the victims of that orchestration going on.

Yes, I was mad for our found irish setter, and my decades later corgi. And my first dog, sandpaw, a venice shepherd.

I do question what I've read of kennel club stuff, as in what world is this about?
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 06:35 pm
My comment was to JL.

Off to read boomer's
0 Replies
 
ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 06:38 pm
Agree re boomer.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 07:31 pm
Yes, we breed those dogs that menace us. It's OUR fault. But I just don't see how we injure a dog by breeding his kind out of existence. We don't do anything to HIM.
0 Replies
 
Diane
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 07:35 pm
It seems to me that increased fines and regulations about containment are the only actions that are practical without doing away with the species.

Ticomaya's suggestions are certainly workable and when Dys and I were talking aobut it, a very high fence came to mind. Spaying and neutering are also ideal methods to help breed out the unatural aggressiveness in inbred (to Kennel Club requirements) breeds.

Since the human race isn't known for its sense of responsibility, tough measures are needed.

Another thought, the people I know who are adamantly against destroying dogs for any reason are the very people who are always vigilant and who take the time to train their dogs and to continue the training throughout the dog's life. Too bad there aren't more people like that.
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 10:45 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
In 1989-1990, the Denver District Court heard the case of Colorado Dog Fanciers v. Denver, 820 P.2d 644 (Colo. 1991), a lawsuit brought in opposition to Denver's pit bull ordinance. The trial court's ruling was upheld on appeal. The trial court made several factual findings that supported the City's claim that there was a rational basis for differential treatment of pit bulls, including the following:

Quote:
27. It cannot be proven that pit bull dogs bite more than other dogs. However, there is credible evidence that pit bull dog attacks are more severe and more likely to result in fatalities.

28. At trial, the City claimed that there were fifteen major differences between pit bulls and other dogs. Some, but not all of these differences were proven:



(b) Athletic ability. Pit bull dogs are extremely muscular and unusually strong for their size. Reportedly, a 78-pound pit bull dog in Texas pulled 5,650 pounds for a distance of 15 feet in a weight-pulling contest.

(c) Biting. The City did prove that they inflict more serious wounds than other breeds. They tend to attack the deep muscles, to hold on, to shake, and to cause ripping of tissues. Pit bull attacks were compared to shark attacks.

(e) Destructiveness. The Court finds that some pit bull type dogs, due to their strength and athletic ability, can damage facilities and equipment. There is a disproportionate number of attacks by chained pit bull dogs which is indicative of their strength.



(f) Fighting ability and killing instinct. The City did prove that unregistered pit bull type dogs were responsible for a disproportionate number of severe or fatal attacks on other dogs and human beings. Credible testimony also proved that, when a pit bull dog begins to fight, it often will not retreat.

(g) Frenzy. The evidence proved that once pit bull type dogs do attack, they are less likely to retreat than other dogs.

(h) Gameness. Pit bull dogs trained for fighting are valued for "gameness," that is, their tenacious refusal to give up a fight. The Court finds that pit bull dogs trained for fighting do have the attribute of gameness.

(j) Manageability. American Staffordshire Terriers, Staffordshire Bull Terriers, American Pit Bull Terriers, and their mixed breeds can make excellent, gentle pets. Nevertheless, credible testimony proved that proper handling, including early socialization to humans, is very important for these dogs. Even their most ardent admirers agree that these dogs are not for everyone and they require special attention and discipline. The Lockwood study reported that 13.3 percent of pit bull type dogs attacked their owners as compared with 2.2 percent of other dogs.

(k) Strength. Pit bull dogs are stronger than many other dogs. The evidence showed that 42.7 percent of the pit bull type dogs attacked while restrained...

(m) Tolerance to pain. The evidence did show that, when a pit bull dog does attack, it exhibits unusual tenaciousness and will not retreat from an attack, even when considerable pain is inflicted on the dog.

(n) Unpredictability...pit bull dogs, unlike other dogs, often give no warning signals before they attack.


lol DOGS SHOULDNT BE CHAINED IN YARDS, DuRRR!
0 Replies
 
OGIONIK
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 10:50 pm
how many people do dogs attack who arent their owners?

BOTTOM LINE, PITS ATTACK BECAUSE THEY ARE TRAINED TOO!
wether its intentional or not.



Everyone thinks those humboldt (sp?) squid are vicious killers, guess what? THATS ONLY WHEN THEY ARE BEING FISHED!!!

wow! imagine that???

the people who train pits to fight, are the reason pits attack, negligence, abuse, u name it, thats the reason why the dog bite somebody, BOTTOM LINE.

tyhis reminds me of the discussion on why blacks are more prone to commmit dcrimes, i heard its a statistic, more blacks commit crimes, well guess what MORE BLACKS LIVE IN POVERTY.

SAME THING. its environmental, yo.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Apr, 2008 10:54 pm
OGIONIK wrote:
BOTTOM LINE, PITS ATTACK BECAUSE THEY ARE TRAINED TOO!


Pits attack whether or not they are trained to.
0 Replies
 
 

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