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Polygamists: Authorities Prepare For the Worst in Texas

 
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2008 07:31 pm
This deserves to be highlighted separately

Quote:
Regardless, child welfare authorities say 31 of the 53 girls aged 14-17 have children or are pregnant.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2008 11:14 pm
CalamityJane wrote:
hawkeye10 wrote:

I think that the state will not be able to prosecute if a 16 year old claims to be married to the man she is having sex with, and has a church document to that effect. A court might convict, but it will be a certain appeal. I think that the supremes would have to take the case.


Baloney! If they cannot provide a legitimate marriage license - and they
can't - the alleged "husband" will be charged with statutory rape. No need
to appeal or bother the supreme court. Texas law states it very clearly.

Even a common law marriage between an adult and a minors is illegal.


Texas must deal with legal history, which has marriage consecrated by the church and registered with the state. States can write any kind of law they want, it does not however mean that they will be upheld by the supremes, which is where we are with marriage law. Maybe Texas will provide the test case in whether states have the power to regulate marriage that Texas says that they do, but don't hold your breath. I don't think that Texas is up to this fight.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 May, 2008 11:33 pm
1) You are wrong about legal history, hawkeye. See Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765), written before there was a state of Texas, or even a US Supreme Court. In his chapter titled "Of Husband and Wife" Blackstone states unambiguously that "OUR law considers marriage in no other light than as a civil contract." That's quite different from your concept of "marriage consecrated by the church and registered with the state".

2) How is this a constitutional case? What are the relevant constitutional provisions that would govern the outcome of this case?
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 May, 2008 08:29 am
Thomas wrote:
1) You are wrong about legal history, hawkeye. See Blackstone's Commentaries on the Laws of England (1765), written before there was a state of Texas, or even a US Supreme Court. In his chapter titled "Of Husband and Wife" Blackstone states unambiguously that "OUR law considers marriage in no other light than as a civil contract." That's quite different from your concept of "marriage consecrated by the church and registered with the state".

2) How is this a constitutional case? What are the relevant constitutional provisions that would govern the outcome of this case?


1) The is no different than the statement "the state recognizes as legal only the marriages that the state has ratified", but that is not the end of the story. One needs only look at the movement towards recognizing homosexual unions as marriage to see that the law is not the end all be all of societal administration. The people have moved on what the definition of marriage is, the law changes only after the fact, it catches up. When laws are still on the books but are unenforceable because the public has moved then those laws go unused, because for the state to try to use those laws would result in the public taking its pound of flesh from the state by politically punishing those who over reached on behalf of the state. The is the line that Texas state leaders are now approaching.

At one time the church regulated marriage, then over time the state took over this role. However, their is no requirement that the state administer marriage. We are rapidly joining Europe in becoming a post religion society, so we are not going back the the Middle Age practice of having the church regulate marriage, but we can recognize as married any union where the individuals claim the marriage identifier.

2) as I have already said the constitutional question is that Texas law is inconsistent, they must either outlaw marriage of minors or not consider marriage sex rape if one of the marriage individuals is a minor. The cult can argue that the individuals did not seek a marriage certificate from the state because to do so would self incriminate them re the rape laws, yet by law the state would have had no cause to refuse to grant the certificate. The state can not write inconsistent law, and then pick and choose when to exercise each law, first saying that these cult members are practicing rape, and then saying that the marriage does not exist because there is no certificate. These individuals are in a no win situation, there behaviour follows the law in every way except to get the license, and yet the state considers their behaviour to be illegal and is resistant/hostile towards recognizing these perfectly legal unions.
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wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 May, 2008 08:55 am
On FindLaw.com, Marci Hamilton critiques due process and religious freedom arguments being made about the raid on the FLDS compound:

FindLaw Commentary
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 May, 2008 09:57 pm
Houston Criminal Attorney John T. Floyd argues that the FLDS Males have been unjustly detained and that the State lacked probable cause for their raid.


http://www.texascriminaldefense.com/comments/April08/21a.htm
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 May, 2008 04:00 pm
Quote:
Few answers in Texas
A month after raid on FLDS ranch, authorities have not achieved much resolution
By Nate Carlisle
and Brooke Adams
The Salt Lake Tribune
Article Last Updated: 05/03/2008 08:03:04 AM MDT


SAN ANGELO, Texas - On the one-month anniversary of a massive raid at a polygamous sect's ranch, here are the numbers:
* 599 DNA samples collected;
* 464 children in state custody;
* 16 group shelters caring for the children;
* One warrant canceled;
* No charges issued.
As of Friday, Texas authorities were no longer actively pursuing an Arizona man named in a search and arrest warrant that triggered the April 3 raid at the YFZ Ranch in Eldorado.
From the start, Dale Evans Barlow said - and his probation officer vouched for him - that he knew nothing about the 16-year-old girl whose phone calls claiming abuse led authorities to the ranch. The calls, to a San Angelo family violence shelter, now are being investigated as a possible hoax.
But Texas Child Protective Services said they found other evidence of underage marriage and polygamous marriages at the ranch, owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, that justified removing all 463 children living there. A baby born this week added to the total.
As events unfolded in Texas, Barlow remained at his home in Colorado City, Ariz. Texas Rangers traveled to St. George to interview Barlow but did not arrest him.
The Texas Department of Public Safety canceled the arrest warrant
for Barlow with little explanation.
"The bottom line is the warrant is no longer active," said spokesman Tom Vinger.
Vinger said he did not know when the warrant was canceled. He would not comment on whether the cancellation confirms the girl's calls for help were a hoax.
"We're still investigating that," he said.
The April 3 warrant alleged a 16-year-old girl called the shelter to report she was married to Barlow, 50, and that he was abusing her.
Two weeks later, Texas authorities announced they were investigating Rozita Swinton of Colorado Springs, Colo., who is suspected of making the calls. She has no known connection to the FLDS but does have a documented history of prank calls falsely claiming abuse.
Vinger said detectives have sent evidence regarding the calls to a crime laboratory and may wait for the results before taking a case to prosecutors. "We're known for being extremely thorough," he said.
Rod Parker, a Salt Lake City attorney representing the FLDS, said, "The cancellation of this warrant is just one more piece of evidence that this call was a hoax and the state of Texas did not properly check this out before they raided the ranch."
But Parker acknowledged the development has little legal bearing on the children's pending custody cases.
The Texas Department of Family and Protective Services said that even if the call was phony, investigators found a "pervasive pattern" of abuse that centered on young girls being groomed for marriages to older men. That evidence showed all children at risk on the ranch, the agency concluded.
There also have been no formal charges filed against Levi Barlow Jeffs, 19, who was arrested during the raid for interfering with law enforcement. Schleicher County Attorney Raymond Loomis on Thursday said he was still waiting for the police reports on the case. Jeffs is the oldest son of FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs, who is in jail in Arizona.
No formal charges have been filed against LeRoy Johnson Steed, either. Steed was arrested April 7 for tampering with evidence during the investigation at the ranch. The Tom Green County District Attorney's office Wednesday said the grand jury that will consider the charge may not convene until June.
[email protected]
[email protected]

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9140852
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2008 09:49 pm
Quote:
Caregivers blast Texas' treatment of polygamous sect's women, children
By Julia Lyon
The Salt Lake Tribune

Article Last Updated: 05/13/2008 09:17:24 AM MDT


Mental health professionals who helped care for FLDS women and children in the weeks after an April raid on the YFZ Ranch describe conditions and treatment they perceived as harsh and unnecessary.
"Never in all my life, and I am one of the older ladies, have I been so ashamed of being a Texan and seeing what and how our government agencies treat people," wrote one employee of Hill Country Community Mental Health and Mental Retardation Center in an unsigned statement.
Texas contracts with Hill Country to provide mental health services during disasters. Staff members met with the center's board of trustees last week, leaving them "spellbound." The board has gathered nine written statements critical of Child Protective Services.
Chairman John Kight said he wants state legislators and the governor to hear the employees' stories. "You have damaged these children for their lives," he said. "This is an agency that looks like it's gone out of control." A Texas CPS spokesman acknowledged the allegations were "very serious" and said they are being investigated. But he noted the women and children were held at a historic fort and a convention center in San Angelo in an unusual emergency situation.
"It was as comfortable as possible under the circumstances," said Patrick Crimmins. "But you have to remember it was a shelter, it was temporary arrangement until we could arrange for foster care for the children."
The raid was triggered by a claim of abuse at the ranch, home to members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, a polygamous sect traditionally based on the Utah-Arizona border. A baby born today brought the total of children in state custody to 465.
Not all Texas CPS employees were criticized by the Hill Country employees. One young man was described as sitting for two hours comforting a toddler separated from his mother. The Texas Rangers were "respectful and polite," according to another statement.
But the statements focus on the Hill Country staffers' dismay at uncaring behavior they say they witnessed by CPS employees.
A boy estimated at age 3 walked along a row of cots asking for someone to rock him after he was separated from his mother, one employee wrote. Two CPS worker trailed the youngster taking notes but not helping him. His brother, age 8, eventually took the child into his arms and sat with him in a rocking chair.
"That little boy will always be in my mind," the employee wrote. "How can a beautiful, healthy child be taken from a healthy, loving home and forced into a situation like that, right here in America, right here in Texas?"
Mothers who initially were allowed to stay with their children were later required to leave if their child was older than 12 months. Describing that day, one employee wrote, "the floor was literally slick with tears in places."
After the separation, a baby was allegedly left in a stroller with no food and water for 24 hours and ended up in a hospital, according to another statement.
"We don't believe that's the case, but we're checking into that," Crimmins said.
Several of the employees stated they do not condone polygamy or the alleged abusive treatment of children. But, they added, the FLDS mothers were not silent or hostile, as CPS had warned they would be. Instead, they were polite, focused on caring for the children, and willing to establish relationships, the mental health workers said.
Several writers claimed CPS workers repeatedly lied to the mothers regarding where they were going to be moved to and other issues.
Crimmins said he disputed that. The state has asserted the FLDS mothers were uncooperative with authorities, such as providing inaccurate or changing information about names and ages.
[email protected]

http://www.sltrib.com/polygamy/ci_9238520
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2008 09:53 pm
Quote:

http://www.statesman.com/news/content/region/legislature/stories/05/16/0516eldoradocosts.html
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hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2008 09:55 pm
Quote:
SAN ANTONIO (AP) -- When Texas child welfare authorities released statistics showing nearly 60 percent of the teen girls taken from a polygamist sect's ranch were pregnant or had children, they seemed to prove what was alleged all along: The sect commonly pushed girls into marriage and sex.

But in the past week, the state has twice been forced to admit "girls" who gave birth while in state custody are actually adults. One was 22 and said she showed state officials a Utah birth certificate shortly after she and more than 400 minors were seized from the West Texas ranch in an April raid.

The state has in custody two dozen other young mothers and others whose ages are in dispute. If most of them also turn out to be adults, it would be a severe blow to the state's claim of widespread sexual abuse.

If it turns out the other 24 disputed minors are adults, the number of actual 14- to 17-year-old girls with children could drop to as low as five or six. That would amount to about one-fifth of the girls that age found at the ranch -- substantially higher than the average rate of teen pregnancies in Texas but a far cry from 60 percent.

"It's not widespread, and you've got to look at every family individually to determine whether there's a problem in a family," said Rod Parker, a spokesman for the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the renegade Mormon sect that runs the ranch.

"There's no reluctance on our part to go ahead and take appropriate action if and when we can determine these are adults," said Patrick Crimmins, a spokesman for Child Protective Services. "We are working as quickly as possible to sort this out and realize the urgency."

All 463 of the children removed from the Yearning for Zion Ranch have been in state custody for six weeks and are scattered in foster care facilities around the state.

Crimmins said he's not sure how long it will take to resolve the disputed-minor cases. Child Protective Services has complained that sect members refused to cooperate with their investigation, constantly changing answers or refusing answers to questions about age and parentage.

Parker said the state ignored evidence the young mothers presented, including birth certificates and Social Security cards. He said that with their long braided hair, makeup-free faces and pioneer dresses, the women look very young.

Patricia Matassarin, Jessop's attorney, questioned how a person proves her age if officials won't believe a birth certificate or driver's license, which Jessop also gave the state.

"The issue is how does anyone prove the date of their birth? We don't get a date stamp when we're born," Matassarin said.

A birth certificate combined with testimony from Jessop's mother were presented, and state officials conceded in Austin on Thursday that Jessop is an adult.

Crimmins said many of the sect members whose ages are in dispute don't have documents typically used to establish age, like birth certificates, driver's licenses or public school records. The FLDS children were home-schooled.

"We've been trying, sometimes with very little success, to get as much information as possible on the children," he said. "What we've said is consistent. We think there was some abuse -- some physical abuse and some sexual abuse -- at the ranch. This ranch was considered as a very large household."

The children are being treated the same as siblings of abused children in smaller households, where removal is common, Crimmins said.

The FLDS case is one of the most complicated custody cases in U.S. history, but all the children from the ranch were sent to foster care after state District Judge Barbara Walther found they were being abused or were at risk for abuse because adults were pushing underage girls into sex and marriage with older men.

In Texas, girls who are younger than 17 generally cannot consent to sex with adult men.

No one has been arrested or charged in the case.

All the children are scheduled to have hearings in the next three weeks to determine what steps their parents will need to take to regain custody.

The FLDS, which teaches that polygamy brings glorification in heaven, broke away from the mainline Mormon church, which disavowed polygamy more than a century ago.

Sect leader Warren Jeffs, who is revered as a prophet, has been sentenced to prison in Utah for being an accomplice to rape in arranging a marriage of a 14-year-old follower to her 19-year-old cousin. He is awaiting trial in Arizona, where he is charged as an accomplice with four counts each of incest and sexual conduct.

Jeffs' lawyers want the incest counts dropped, arguing that prosecutors in Mohave County cannot pursue those charges along with the sexual conduct counts. A judge is considering the request
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/16/polygamist.retreat.ap/index.html?eref=ib_topstories
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Fri 16 May, 2008 10:20 pm
Using the calculator I get the first 19 days cost running over $800 a day per "kid", and this does not figure in the $5,000 per in expected court costs.

Cases of abuse so far documented....0
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 11:27 am
Quote:
Hearings under way in polygamist sect custody case
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 19 May, 2008 05:47 pm
Quote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/us/19cnd-raid.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
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edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 06:21 pm
But also on Tuesday, two cases came up that revealed girls as young as 15 and 16 had been unified in spiritual marriages with older men.

One of those girls, now 19, was ruled an adult by the courts but not before she said in a conference call to the court that she could have been no older than 16 when her daughter was born on Aug. 19, 2005.

And in another courtroom, information gleaned from the records of a 17-year-old indicated she had to have been 15 when her first child was born.

Crimmins denied any suggestion that the agency's massive case may be on the verge of collapse, adding, "The numbers aren't important to us."

What is important, he said, is that the children that were purportedly abused are now safe and protected. He said CPS was stymied by conflicting and false information given by families, which made establishing ages nearly impossible.

He added that his agency never intentionally misled anyone when it said it believed it had more than two dozen females who were being sexually abused as minors.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 06:41 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
But also on Tuesday, two cases came up that revealed girls as young as 15 and 16 had been unified in spiritual marriages with older men.

One of those girls, now 19, was ruled an adult by the courts but not before she said in a conference call to the court that she could have been no older than 16 when her daughter was born on Aug. 19, 2005.

And in another courtroom, information gleaned from the records of a 17-year-old indicated she had to have been 15 when her first child was born.

Crimmins denied any suggestion that the agency's massive case may be on the verge of collapse, adding, "The numbers aren't important to us."

What is important, he said, is that the children that were purportedly abused are now safe and protected. He said CPS was stymied by conflicting and false information given by families, which made establishing ages nearly impossible.

He added that his agency never intentionally misled anyone when it said it believed it had more than two dozen females who were being sexually abused as minors.


Facts are not important, allegations are....and that folks is the problem here
0 Replies
 
edgarblythe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 06:55 pm
Allegations about the law or allegations about the underage girls?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 May, 2008 07:08 pm
edgarblythe wrote:
But also on Tuesday, two cases came up that revealed girls as young as 15 and 16 had been unified in spiritual marriages with older men.

One of those girls, now 19, was ruled an adult by the courts but not before she said in a conference call to the court that she could have been no older than 16 when her daughter was born on Aug. 19, 2005.

And in another courtroom, information gleaned from the records of a 17-year-old indicated she had to have been 15 when her first child was born.

Crimmins denied any suggestion that the agency's massive case may be on the verge of collapse, adding, "The numbers aren't important to us."

What is important, he said, is that the children that were purportedly abused are now safe and protected
. He said CPS was stymied by conflicting and false information given by families, which made establishing ages nearly impossible.

He added that his agency never intentionally misled anyone when it said it believed it had more than two dozen females who were being sexually abused as minors.


Could have been said with the words "The facts ain't important to us, what is important, he said, is that the children allegedly abused are now safe and protected". However, that the children were ever not safe is as of yet not determined.
0 Replies
 
ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2008 01:01 pm
Today a Texas Court rules that children were wrongly siezed...

Quote:

The Third Court of Appeals in Austin ruled that the grounds for removing the children were "legally and factually insufficient" under Texas law. The ruling did not immediately order the return of the children.


Quote:


Quote:

Earlier Thursday, attorneys for Child Protective Services said 15 of the 31 mothers authorities had put in foster care as children have now been declared adults, including one who is 27.

Another girl listed as an underage mother is 14, but the state has conceded she is not pregnant and does not have a child.


It is far too easy for state officials to overreact based on popular predjudice.

The number of things the state got wrong in its mad rush to judgement is ridiculous.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24777095/
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2008 01:15 pm
Hmmm... come to think of it, I have a question: On what evidence does state authorities base its claims about how old the mothers are? Did they obtain birth certificates? (This strikes me as unlikely in isolated sects such as the Fundamentalist Latter Day Saints.) Did the officials just guess, based on how old the mothers looked? If that's how it worked, the state's actions come pretty close to defamation.

Does anybody know how the alleged mothers' alleged ages were established?
0 Replies
 
cjhsa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 May, 2008 02:07 pm
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/05/22/us/22polygamy-337.jpg

Alright ladies! Let's head over to Hooters for a beer!
0 Replies
 
 

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