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Flag "Desecration" What exactly is it?

 
 
Ethel2
 
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 05:20 pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A2510-2003Aug29?language=printer

washingtonpost.com

Mr. Bush and the Flag



Sunday, August 31, 2003; Page B06

THE WHITE HOUSE supports the wrongheaded constitutional amendment that
would give Congress the power "to prohibit the physical desecration of
the
flag of the United States." Yet in light of an incident last month, Mr.
Bush should consider whether he might be the first person jailed should
this perennial
foolishness -- passed most recently by the House of Representatives
earlier this year -- ever become part of the Constitution. Mr. Bush, at
a political event
in Livonia, Mich., autographed supporters' flags, an apparent violation
of an obscure provision of American law that details the respect with
which flags
should be treated. "The flag," reads the code, "should never have placed
upon it . . . any mark, insignia, letter, word, figure, design, picture,
or drawing of
any nature." The last time Congress sought to ban flag-burning, in a
statute the Supreme Court struck down in 1989, it made a criminal out of
anyone who
"defaces" a flag -- language Mr. Bush likewise appears to have violated.
Never mind the fact that he clearly meant no disrespect; if Congress had
the power
to criminalize flag desecration, he would at least arguably be
indictable.

We say arguably because there's no telling what "desecration" actually
means. The proposed amendment is meant to deal with flag-burning, but
what about
that American soldier who, in a moment of unadulterated patriotism,
wrapped a flag around a statue of Saddam Hussein? What about a person
who proudly
wears a ripped T-shirt displaying the flag? Of course, such cases would
never be brought in court. The amendment, in practice, would be used to
punish
only unpopular political expression, expression that, though sometimes
odious, is today unambiguously protected by American constitutional law
-- as it
should be. But the notion that the president, or anyone, could be
charged with signing a flag should not be even arguable. It should be
laughable -- as it
would be if politicians such as Mr. Bush had the guts to stand against
constitutional pollution rather than pandering to it.

© 2003 The Washington Post
Company


Hummm, any thoughts on this one? Are we all the way back in the 60s again? All that progress lost? Or is it worse? I'm feeling a little bit creepy about all this. Patriots Act and constitutional amendments.........John Ashcroft is a scary man.
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Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 05:22 pm
I wish people would not invest so much emotion of little banners.

If I had my druthers all the flags on earth would be used as toilet paper.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 05:24 pm
Wouldn't decompose well....

Make bathrooms look cute though - the South African especially would be good...
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 05:24 pm
me too, Craven
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 05:27 pm
To be serious, though, while I couldn't give a tuppenny smeg for all the flags in the world, I wouldn't burn or "desecrate" (pshaw!) someone's though, because:

a) It does mean something to lots of folk, however little I may understand them, and it is therefore rather rude and mean - and therefore does little, I think, for the cause of the "desecrators".

b) "Desecrating" the things is a way of taking them as seriously as the folk who get upset about damaging them do.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 05:30 pm
I agree, Bunny, but do we need a constitutional amendment? Civil Rights, whatever is going to become of them?
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 05:31 pm
It's also one way to get people over them.

Part of the whole 'I wanna be flushed' notion.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 05:34 pm
Heavens! No amendments, Lola!!!!!


(With, or without, vodka, Craven? Nemmind - no need to say.....sigh...)
0 Replies
 
Lightwizard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 05:41 pm
Well, you know that you've got to have a flaaag.
You can't have a war with another nation without a flaaag. If its confirming allegiance is to salute a piece of fabric, we've got some identity problems that go clear to the top. It would be a curtailment of freedom of speech. It does no harm to anyone but those who are offended and isn't that true of anything covered by freedom of speech? Should the next thing be to put in the Consitution that we cannot criticize our leaders? It's the next step on that slippery slope.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 05:43 pm
and we're accelerating fast........sllllllllllllllllllidding
0 Replies
 
dyslexia
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 06:13 pm
summer '68 driving my VW bus across the great state of Kansas (painted red, white and blue) arrested for desecration of the flag, spend the night in jail, judge tosses charges out, sheriff tosses me out. but then i don't want to die in Georgia either.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 06:16 pm
yes, dys, we're back to Easy Rider, I fear.
0 Replies
 
hobitbob
 
  1  
Reply Sat 30 Aug, 2003 10:41 pm
Bunny...are you another Red Dwarf fan???Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy
Anyway, shortly after Sept 11th, when patriotism became the fad, I discovered that I was offended by all the flag waving. The city of Baltimore(hon!) put a garrison sized flag up in Patterson Park, That was fine, and even complimented the Civil War era gazebo.
But...folks driving along witht there flag and Ravens poenants on their SUVs, the homeless guys hawking flag t-shirts to tourists in the Inner Harbour, and the enfdless profusion of bumper stickers...give me a break! The one I find the most annoying seems to be the Colorado favourite: an American flag with the logo "The Power of Pride."I wonder if the people with this sticker are aware of the irony they are displaying? Wink
Anyway, I'm doing my part. Right after all the flags and stickers began being trendy, I made sure to put a sticker of the UN banner in my back window. Very Happy
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 01:08 am
LOL!!! I do, indeed, love Red Dwarf, Hobitbob!

You know, I can sort of understand the flag thing after Sept 11th - though I find flags outside people's homes and such very odd. LOVE your UN flag!

But - I was driving through the centre of town just now, and in the square there, there are two flags. One is a huge Australian flag, the other is an equally huge Aboriginal flag. The Aboriginal flag is very beautiful - especially when it is big. It actually means a lot that that flag is there - (because of various politics about that square) - and that flag means a huge amount to Aboriginal people - and to me and all well-intending whites here, because it is such a symbol of struggle and survival and hope. I would happily display that symbol when appropriate, to show support of Aboriginal people.

So - I am a hypocrite, no?
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 01:10 am
www.itsanhonour.gov.au/flag/indigenous_people.html
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 01:15 am
Hobitbob,

So you liked Cold Comfort Farm? "but...........I saw something nasty in the wood shed!" "Yes, madam, but did it see you?" Brilliant movie. It's one of my favorites.

Bunny, it's not the flag question that worrys me. My problem is that it's a proposed constitutional amendment. It's the same problem I'm having about all these campaigns, the harrassment of the Clintons and his impeachment, recalling the Governor in Califorina, re-districting in Texas (look for more of this), the Patriot Act and unilateral declarations of war, dresses for the naked statues in the Lincoln Memorial, and Constitutional amendments, stacking the courts, stealing elections, misrepresentation of agendas...........I'm loosing my power to vote and have it make a difference every day. The electorate are being robbed of their voting power. This is becoming very worrisome, approaching alarming to me. I will be interested to see if they get away with it. They have been more successful than I would have ever imagined. These people mean business. And they don't give a damn about what the voter wants. They think they know right better than anyone else.....justification for doing whatever they want and can get away with.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 01:25 am
Yes, Lola - but the impetus behind this thought of an amendment is the imbuing by human beings of a piece of cloth with all sorts of patriotic, "sacred", "us" feelings, no?
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 08:45 am
Yeah, it's true, Bun. The amendment is about the flag. And I suppose it is about the feelings many people have about a symbol of national pride and unity. I'm just saying that what bothers me about it is the trend of a disrespect of the civil rights of Americans. If the flag means anything to me, it would be about a pride in my country ( and I'd be a lot prouder if we were protecting civil rights rather that behaving as if they are only for those who toe a particular line, imposed by those who have not been ligitamately elected). I can't think of an occasion in which, in my adult life, I have or would desecrate anyone's flag. (But one of the points above is what exactly is "desecration.") However, I don't think I'd get worked up about it either unless, as you point out, it was a symbol of a people who have had little recognition. But I still would insist on anyone's right to do it. I think people get entirely too worked up about symbols....or maybe I'm saying that any use of the flag, including the use of it to fly high above our heads, as a method of expression should be allowed. Freedom of speech is much more important to me than a flag. I even think a person should be allowed to burn an entire set of the Standard Edition (collection of Freud's work) Laughing as self expression, as long as they didn't try to burn them all.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 02:57 pm
Don't tempt me! LOL!
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sun 31 Aug, 2003 03:54 pm
If you've got a thousand bucks or so. Enjoy. Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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