On religion in the Whitehouse.....

There have been several religious Presidents. The question is whether they go over the line. We have a secular government, therefore I think the President should speak as a secular head of state. That doesn't mean he must set aside his religion, only that he must not prostelyze on his bully pulpit.

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Well, there has been much ado about Obama's religious affiliations, and much ado about his ability to receive a "pass" on certain issues.

Those tilted to the left of center frequently excoriated Bush because of all the God talk, but I am wondering if this is another issue where Obama gets a so-called "pass".

I know this may be a passing tide because of the Wright debacle, but if it continues, I hold Obama to the same standard as I do Bush--keep the God talk for Sunday morning with family and friends.

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I don't think Obama will be the next President. But, if that did happen, and he continues talking about his faith, then it reminds me of the moral of the fable, King Midas's Touch; be careful what one wishes for, one might get it. (Meaning all the secular progressive Democrats, that voted for Obama, may not be so happy with the religious feelings of Obama.)

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I am F*CKING SICK of all of the religion in this country.

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I am sick of all the so called religious christians who would sell their mothers into slavery for $100. The ones who profess to be christians but who worship money.

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Religion is SUPPOSED to be an individuals guide in how to conduct their personal lives.

It has NO PLACE in governing.

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Faith is an integral part of the persona of a person who believes. It colors all that he does. Nevertheless, when in national offfice, the Constitution needs to trump the Bible, or the person is not adhering to the oath to which he has sworn.

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engineer wrote:

There have been several religious Presidents. The question is whether they go over the line. We have a secular government, therefore I think the President should speak as a secular head of state. That doesn't mean he must set aside his religion, only that he must not prostelyze on his bully pulpit.

Actually, we probably have Abraham Lincoln to thank for all this horse-hockey. Jefferson, of course, wrote the now famous (or infamous, to the holy rollers) letter about the wall of separation between church and state to the Danbury Baptists. Asked to declare a day of prayer and contrition during an epidemic, Jackson refused to do so, citing the separation of church and state.

Lincoln, who had shown no particular religious affiliation in his life, began to invoke a deist-like religious conviction in his public pronouncements. I suspect that this was because of his excellent political sense, which told him this would go over well with the people in the crisis of a great war. It was Lincoln who established the Thanksgiving holiday in 1863, and the point was clearly religious. Before Lincoln, Presidents and candidates were careful not to bring up religion, and the people approved of that, probably because several states continued to maintain official religious establishments after the Revolution, and even in those states which eventually abolished religious establishment, there were people who remembered the days when this was true.

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Re: On religion in the Whitehouse.....

candidone1 wrote:

What should we expect the role of religion to be in the Whitehouse?

Many of Bush's policies reflected the religious lens through which he saw the world. He was and continues to be supported by the religious right, but he was also criticized extensively for being too overtly religious on both sides of the spectrum.

Mitt Romney's chances at winning even the Republican nomination was obviously hindered in being a Mormon.

With the recent events surrounding Obama, we see that he is a very religious man.

Can we expect the same criticisms of Obama, his faith and his Presidency?

Jeremiah Wright, Obama's pastor for 20 years, cites James Cone as one of his foundational influences in developing a 'Black Values System'.

Cone writes:

Quote:

Black theology refuses to accept a God who is not identified totally with the goals of the black community. If God is not for us and against white people, then he is a murderer, and we had better kill him. The task of black theology is to kill gods who do not belong to the black community

... Black theology will accept only the love of God which participates in the destruction of the white enemy. What we need is the divine love as expressed in Black Power, which is the power of black people to destroy their oppressors here and now by any means at their disposal. Unless God is participating in this holy activity, we must reject his love.

Yeah, you can expect criticism.

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Setanta wrote:

Before Lincoln, Presidents and candidates were careful not to bring up religion, and the people approved of that, probably because several states continued to maintain official religious establishments after the Revolution, and even in those states which eventually abolished religious establishment, there were people who remembered the days when this was true.

You have got to be kidding. I doubt that you could come up with more than a handful of significant political speeches from the ante-bellum period where there is no mention of god or providence or the deity in some form or another. But go ahead, check it out yourself:

Presidential Inaugural Addresses

State of the Union Messages

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RL:
This thread was nto about the Wright incident....there have been plenty of threads dedicated to Wright's sermons and Obama's connection to him. As much as many scared white people wan to soak this "scandal" up and run with it until August, it's a dead issue.

I just see in Obama open and frequent appeals and references to God and his faith. I was uncomfortable with it when Bush did it and I find myself feeling the same with Obama.

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You sure are in an argumentative frame of mind lately, Joe, which is no skin off my nose. Since it seems lately to involve cherry-picking what i write, or carefully interpreting what i write in order to get a position from which to attack, it is the more pathetic.

I wrote: "Before Lincoln, Presidents and candidates were careful not to bring up religion[/u] . . . " (emphasis added). I didn't write god, or providence or some form of deity--i wrote "religion." Separation of church and state isn't a denial of the existence of a deity, nor a rejection of anyone's decision to believe in and have a "personal relationship" with a deity--it is about separating organized religion from the realm of governance.

Are you having your period the last few days?

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Setanta wrote:

You sure are in an argumentative frame of mind lately, Joe, which is no skin off my nose. Since it seems lately to involve cherry-picking what i write, or carefully interpreting what i write in order to get a position from which to attack, it is the more pathetic.

I wrote: "Before Lincoln, Presidents and candidates were careful not to bring up religion[/u] . . . " (emphasis added). I didn't write god, or providence or some form of deity--i wrote "religion." Separation of church and state isn't a denial of the existence of a deity, nor a rejection of anyone's decision to believe in and have a "personal relationship" with a deity--it is about separating organized religion from the realm of governance.

Where did Lincoln bring up "religion" (as you define it) in any of his speeches, except for passing references to god or providence or the deity? I've read a lot of Lincoln's writings, but I can't recall seeing even one exegesis on the bible or a commentary on the gospels. The fact is that Lincoln used religious references in the exact same manner as his contemporaries and previous presidents had done. Lincoln was certainly no innovator in that sense.

Setanta wrote:

Are you having your period the last few days?

No, just a lot more free time lately. Tant pis pour vous.

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It's none the worse for me, because your hurling of electrons in my direction does me no harm.

Lincoln's Proclamation establishing the Thanksgiving holiday.

The year that is drawing towards its close, has been filled with the blessings of fruitful fields and healthful skies. To these bounties, which are so constantly enjoyed that we are prone to forget the source from which they come, others have been added, which are of so extraordinary a nature, that they cannot fail to penetrate and soften even the heart which is habitually insensible to the ever watchful providence of Almighty God. In the midst of a civil war of unequalled magnitude and severity, which has sometimes seemed to foreign States to invite and to provoke their aggression, peace has been preserved with all nations, order has been maintained, the laws have been respected and obeyed, and harmony has prevailed everywhere except in the theatre of military conflict; while that theatre has been greatly contracted by the advancing armies and navies of the Union. Needful diversions of wealth and of strength from the fields of peaceful industry to the national defence, have not arrested the plough, the shuttle, or the ship; the axe had enlarged the borders of our settlements, and the mines, as well of iron and coal as of the precious metals, have yielded even more abundantly than heretofore. Population has steadily increased, notwithstanding the waste that has been made in the camp, the siege and the battle-field; and the country, rejoicing in the consciousness of augmented strength and vigor, is permitted to expect continuance of years with large increase of freedom.

No human counsel hath devised nor hath any mortal hand worked out these great things. They are the gracious gifts of the Most High God, who, while dealing with us in anger for our sins, hath nevertheless remembered mercy. It has seemed to me fit and proper that they should be solemnly, reverently and gratefully acknowledged as with one heart and voice by the whole American People. I do therefore invite my fellow citizens in every part of the United States, and also those who are at sea and those who are sojourning in foreign lands, to set apart and observe the last Thursday of November next, as a day of Thanksgiving and Praise to our beneficent Father who dwelleth in the Heavens. And I recommend to them that while offering up the ascriptions justly due to Him for such singular deliverances and blessings, they do also, with humble penitence for our national perverseness and disobedience, commend to his tender care all those who have become widows, orphans, mourners or sufferers in the lamentable civil strife in which we are unavoidably engaged, and fervently implore the interposition of the Almighty Hand to heal the wounds of the nation and to restore it as soon as may be consistent with the Divine purposes to the full enjoyment of peace, harmony, tranquillity and Union.

Abraham Lincoln (emphasis added)

I know of no agent of government of the United States, let alone the President, who has established a religious holiday. However, perhaps our Joe in his infinite wisdom, and while spared the hormonal rages which seem to have overtaken him, can enlighten us.

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Setanta wrote:

I know of no agent of government of the United States, let alone the President, who has established a religious holiday. However, perhaps our Joe in his infinite wisdom, and while spared the hormonal rages which seem to have overtaken him, can enlighten us.

No problem:

WHEREAS it is the duty of all nations to acknowledge the providence of Almighty God, to obey His will, to be grateful for His benefits, and humbly to implore His protection and favour; and Whereas both Houses of Congress have, by their joint committee, requested me "to recommend to the people of the United States a DAY OF PUBLICK THANKSGIVING and PRAYER, to be observed by acknowledging with grateful hearts the many and signal favors of Almighty God, especially by affording them an opportunity peaceably to establish a form of government for their safety and happiness:" NOW THEREFORE, I do recommend and assign THURSDAY, the TWENTY-SIXTH DAY of NOVEMBER next, to be devoted by the people of these States to the service of that great and glorious Being who is the beneficent author of all the good that was, that is, or that will be; that we may then all unite in rendering unto Him our sincere and humble thanks for His kind care and protection of the people of this country previous to their becoming a nation; for the signal and manifold mercies and the favorable interpositions of His providence in the course and conclusion of the late war; for the great degree of tranquility, union, and plenty which we have since enjoyed;-- for the peaceable and rational manner in which we have been enable to establish Constitutions of government for our safety and happiness, and particularly the national one now lately instituted;-- for the civil and religious liberty with which we are blessed, and the means we have of acquiring and diffusing useful knowledge;-- and, in general, for all the great and various favours which He has been pleased to confer upon us. And also, that we may then unite in most humbly offering our prayers and supplications to the great Lord and Ruler of Nations and beseech Him to pardon our national and other transgressions;-- to enable us all, whether in publick or private stations, to perform our several and relative duties properly and punctually; to render our National Government a blessing to all the people by constantly being a Government of wise, just, and constitutional laws, discreetly and faithfully executed and obeyed; to protect and guide all sovereigns and nations (especially such as have shewn kindness unto us); and to bless them with good governments, peace, and concord; to promote the knowledge and practice of true religion and virtue, and the increase of science among them and us; and, generally to grant unto all mankind such a degree of temporal prosperity as he alone knows to be best. GIVEN under my hand, at the city of New-York, the third day of October, in the year of our Lord, one thousand seven hundred and eighty-nine. (signed) G. WashingtonSource

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Consider me enlighten at least to the extent that i had not known that Washington promulgated such a proclamation. Do we celebrate such a holiday in unbroken observance since that day? No. Do we celebrate the holiday established by Lincoln in unbroken observance since 1863? Yes.

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Setanta wrote:

Consider me enlighten at least to the extent that i had not known that Washington promulgated such a proclamation. Do we celebrate such a holiday in unbroken observance since that day? No. Do we celebrate the holiday established by Lincoln in unbroken observance since 1863? Yes.

Well, I'm not sure why that should matter. Your original point was the Lincoln was the first president to bring up religion. That clearly isn't true, and the unbroken string of Thanksgivings since 1863 doesn't make it any truer.

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At no time did i write anything even remotely resembling a claim that Lincoln was the first president to "bring up religion." This is very poor work on your part. The post of mine to which you have most recently responded underlines my post prior to that, in which i wrote: "I know of no agent of government of the United States, let alone the President, who has established a religious holiday." Your reference to Washington's proclamation fails to fulfill that criterion.

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Good luck Joe. Set is like the Fonz in that he just can't admit his mistakes and move on. He'll argue semantics and meanings and feinitions and what he meant to say instead.

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On religion in the Whitehouse.....

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