An African-American Icon Speaks Truth to the Lincoln Cult

Fortunately, many of those omitted points are irrelevant, but my failure to respond should, in no way, be interpreted as tacit agreement.
-joefromchicago

Well, every single one of my "irrelevant" points is predicated on your writings. And it is clear that you have no qualms with (and you're quite adept at) making irrelevant points and you don't seem to be short on time. So no worries, I don't interpret your failure as tacit agreement. I interpret your failure to respond as a sign that you have begrudgingly conceded.

Lincoln did not live in an era where politicians felt a compulsive need to apologize for remarks or positions that they later abandoned. I doubt that Lincoln ever apologized or retracted any of the statements that he made in the 1858 debates.
-joefromchicago

OK, you have no evidence that he ever retracted or even uttered anything that contradicted his racist statements.

His subsequent policies, however, are pretty good evidence that he no longer held those views by 1865.
-joefromchicago

His policy for deporting blacks is hardly "pretty good evidence that he no longer held" racist views by 1865. What is interesting (laughably so), is that you say his views shifted, but you are unable to define, characterize, or describe his views. So how can you even begin to even suggest a shift, if you cannot even present what you consider to be Lincoln's views on this issue?

By the end of the war, he favored total emancipation of all slaves, citizenship and civil equality for freedmen, and at least a limited franchise for freed blacks.
-joefromchicago

Do you have any proof that Lincoln favored civil equality for blacks? And if so, would you please post it?

Given that the only thing that you have, so far, been willing to contribute to this discussion is a constant barrage of picayune quibbles over labels, I'm not going to put a label on Lincoln's attitude toward race. If you want to do that, go ahead.
-joefromchicago

So, while you claim to have knowledge of a "shift" in Lincoln's views on race, you are unable support that claim. That, of course, isn't surprising.

Lincoln's relationship with Douglass and his acceptance of Douglass's counsel did contradict his previous statements on race.
-joefromchicago

Seems very doubtful, but to which of Lincoln's previous statements are you referring?

joefromchicago writes: Originally, it was thought that, by freeing the slaves, they would automatically be entitled to all of the political rights enjoyed by freemen.

Mexica writes: Who thought freeing the slaves would "automatically" entitle them to "all of the political rights enjoyed by freemen," Lincoln?

joefromchicago writes: Congress passed the Civil Rights Act of 1866 pursuant to the federal enforcement provisions of the thirteenth amendment. That act provided that freedmen would enjoy all of the civil rights enjoyed by white citizens. Clearly, then, the framers of the thirteenth amendment -- and presumably Lincoln-- thought that emancipation would bring with it civil equality.

You should have just written: "I have no proof that Lincoln thought freeing the slaves would automatically entitle them to all of the political rights enjoyed by freemen." It would produce the same sentiment as your paragraph, but with added efficiency of fewer keystrokes.

There is no reason (known that I know of) to intimate or associate Lincoln with the passage or even conception of the law that is known as the Civil Rights Act of 1866. The genesis of that act, as far as I can tell, was born well after Lincoln's death.

Furthermore, Lincoln had before clashed with members of his own party over the issue of slavery and the freeing of slaves.



So while the "Radical Republicans" in congress wanted to extend political rights to blacks (particularly in the South), this is not evidence of Lincoln wanting the same. Simply because Lincoln supported freeing the slaves, does not automatically mean that he agreed with some of his fellow Republicans on the question of political equality for blacks.

My opinion is supported by what I consider to be a rather strong conjecture.
-joefromchicago

While your contention that a "rather strong conjecture" supports your opinion is hilarious, I do think it beyond silly to conclude that an opinion supports your opinion, even if it is a "rather strong" one. So, I reject your proof.

Well, first of all, if Illinois ever had "Black Codes" (which I doubt)
joefromchicago

"The 1848 Constitution of Illinois led to one of the harshest Black Code systems in the nation until the Civil War. The Illinois Black Code of 1853 extended a complete prohibition against black immigration into the state."

As I noted above, Lincoln's views on race were very different in the 1850s from what they became in the 1860s.
-joefromchicago

Yes, I know; you keep saying that.

His support of the thirteenth amendment, then, shows that he was no longer a proponent of Black Codes.
-joefromchicago

Again, Lincoln had expressed a desire to free the slaves in 1858, and at that time he also spoke out against granting blacks political rights. It seems to me that Lincoln rightly saw that there was no contradiction in opposing slavery for blacks and also opposing political rights for blacks. So, his support of Thirteenth Amendment - which only freed the slave but did not extend to him political rights - in no way "shows that he was no longer a proponent of Black Codes."

Of course the position that he took in 1864 contradicts the position he took in 1858. How could you conclude otherwise?
-jorfromchicago

Easily, by not supporting opinion with conjecture.

aidan, thanks for chiming in. I am also learning a lot from this discussion. I had a fairly vague idea that Lincoln was a racist (sorry if that offends, but I try not to mince words on matters I consider obvious), but this discussion has prompted me to seek out further evidence of my opinion, and I'm sure I'll find out quite a bit more in the near future. And I am not "anti-Lincoln" either. Searching for a more comprehensive understanding of him, does not equate to "Lincoln bashing."

I will also pick up Bennett's book. I am attracted to works that, not only fail to toe the company line, but vigorously challenge the status quo.

And I also suggest reading Thomas DiLorenzo's Lincoln Unmasked: What You're Not Supposed to Know About Dishonest Abe. It is short book that offers a very different perspective on Lincoln than what is out there in the mainstream media. He is often labeled a "Lincoln critic" or a "nut-job," but he comes of as a rational thinker, but one who doesn't march in step wit what he calls the "Lincoln cult."

Here is an excerpt of the first chapter and the link to it in its entirety:

You may make any interpretation you see fit. As for me, I am under the increasing suspicion that I am helping you out with some kind of homework assignment or something -- perhaps a report on Bennett's book, which you admit you haven't read. You show very little familiarity with the topic at hand, and while I am supposed to come up with all of the factual support for my statements, you provide none yourself. But I'm not your private tutor, Mexica, and I'm not going to write your papers for you (although I must grudgingly admire your technique -- it's far better than all of the other high schoolers who come onto A2K and beg the members here to do their assignments for them). I suggest that, instead of badgering me with your incessant quibbling, you actually research this topic on your own.

And I am under the impression that you are a highly functional autistic savant.
Of course, our impressions of one another does not address your inability to describe your claimed "shift" in Lincoln's racist views.