55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Fri 14 May, 2010 06:41 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:
Okir, I do not understand why you think taxing each individual"s gross income is "taxing production"! Employers will not have to pay the tax on individual gross income. Only each individual will pay the tax on their gross annual income. Production is in no way taxed by a flat tax on individual gross income. Produced goods, commodities, and services that come to market are in no way taxed by a tax on goss individual incomes.

Taxing an employee's compensation requires an employer pay a higher compensation to that employee to allow for that employee to be able to make a living wage. In other words, what the employer is withholding from the employee's paycheck, and what the employee may pay later in terms of income tax on his compensation lowers the amount of compensation that the employee ultimately receives, thus driving up the level of compensation or pay required to attract competent employees in the marketplace, to produce the goods and services, thus driving up the cost of producing those goods and services. Put more simply, income tax is a part of the cost of producing goods and services, because it is a significant part of the cost of labor to produce those goods and services. An owner of the business also will have to pay income tax, which raises the cost of doing business, thus raising the cost of producing the goods and services that the business owner is producing. By simply applying this to a business of mine, if I did not have to pay income tax, I could charge considerably less for the products and services sold, thus resulting in less earned income, but which would result in the same or more than I currently have left after paying the income tax. So income tax has effectively raised the price of the goods and services that I provide. The same principle applies to my employees, I could pay them less money if they did not have to pay income tax, and it would lower my production costs, while allowing them to still have as much or money left over with even a lower wage.

Quote:
By my definitions, an individual business owner's or share holder's gross income is the income s/he receives from their business or shares after paying all the business's operating expenses. An individual employee's gross income is the salary/commission/fee s/heI receives from their employer or employers.

True, but my explanation above demonstrates why income tax is a significant part of the cost of labor. Because people and businesses are required to pay income tax, it requires those people be enabled to make enough more money to pay those taxes, thus raising the demand for higher wages and profits before tax, thus raising the cost of labor overall. I could use many different analogies, but I will try this one, an owner of an apartment complex must charge higher rent if his operating cost is higher, whether it might be higher utility or perhaps higher property tax costs. Similarly, income tax is a part of labor, which is an operating cost to produce goods and services. And it really doesn't matter whether the landlord pays the utilities or taxes, or the rentor does, the cost of housing will be increased because of increased utility costs, and/or taxes.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 05:06 pm
@okie,
okie wrote:
Taxing an employee's compensation requires an employer pay a higher compensation to that employee to allow for that employee to be able to make a living wage.
...
By simply applying this to a business of mine, if I did not have to pay income tax, I could charge considerably less for the products and services sold, thus resulting in less earned income, but which would result in the same or more than I currently have left after paying the income tax.

If you were correct, that would be true whether the employee's taxes are on his consumption or on her/his personal gross income paid by the employer.

Currently, an employee's pay is taxed by an income tax that is not paid by the employer--except for social security taxes (supposedly paying for some of the employee's reirement costs). An employee's pay is paid by the employee.

If there were only a gross income tax on what individuals earn--not what businesses earn--then your business would be relieved of having to pay any income tax on its earnings. That is what I have been recommending.

Bottom line, according to your logic, the employer has to pay more because his employees are taxed any-which-away--be it on the employee's consumption or be it on the employee's income.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 08:32 pm
Any predictions on the KY Repub primary for the Senate seat coming up om Tuesday? A test, perhaps, of the teaparty movement.
okie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 16 May, 2010 08:35 pm
@ican711nm,
I understand your point somewhat if you are exempting corporations of paying income tax, however in the case of sole proprietorships, the earnings of a person's business is reported as his personal income on Schedule C, and if that person's business is providing a service or product, then he must charge a higher price to offset income tax, which drives the cost of those products or services upward.
Also, if a person has to pay higher income tax, most likely in some sectors it could drive the wage scales upward for the employees working for corporations to provide goods and services, which will also drive prices upward. I will say this, I do have some sympathy for the idea to charge higher personal income taxes on ridiculously high compensation for executives working for corporations and other overpaid people, such as sports and entertainment industry figures. Doing so would help cut down on some of the abuse that we currently see.
So personal income tax does most definitely equal the equivalent of taxing productivity, as it ends up being a cost of wages or labor. Our earnings are directily tied to our productivity, whether we work for someone else or ourselves.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 08:26 am
@okie,
Okie, I cannot find any evidence that any taxes on personal incomes drive up the wage scales of anyone.

Therefore, I can find zero evidence that "personal income tax does most definitely equal the equivalent of taxing productivity, as it ends up being a cost of wages or labor." The cost of raxes on personal incomes is a cost on personal incomes. It is not a cost on productivity.

If all federal taxes were replaced by a uniform sales tax, the same would be true: the cost of the tax on personal expenditures would not be a cost on productivity.

If a tax on personal incomes were to be logically proven to be a tax on productivity, then it would have to logically follow that a tax on personal expenditures would have to also be a tax on productivity.

Employers pay salaries to their employees based on what the employee does for the employer and on competition for competent employees. Employers have not increased salaries because of increased taxes on salaries. Likewise, they have not decreased salaries because of decreased taxes on salaries.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 01:34 pm
@realjohnboy,
Quote:
In Paul candidacy, a referendum on Tea Party ideas
(By Perry Bacon Jr., The Washington Post, May 18, 2010)

BOWLING GREEN, Ky -- Liberals have criticized the Tea Party movement as an amorphous, incoherent, possibly racist group of opponents of President Obama who are not offering an alternative agenda of their own.

But Rand Paul, the U.S. Senate candidate favored to win the Republican primary here, is offering a series of conservative positions that is one of the most detailed articulations yet of how Tea Party principles would translate into governing.

If Paul wins the primary, he would both defeat a Republican opponent who has cast these views as out of the mainstream and turn the election here this fall into a debate over the Tea Party's vision for the country.

Paul is full of ideas that neither of the two major political parties fully embrace, although many of his positions are in the Tea Party activists' policy document, which they have dubbed the "Contract from America."

If Rand Paul had his way, the federal government would no longer hand out subsidies to support farmers. The retirement age would be raised to make Social Security solvent. Senators could only serve 12 years in office. Congress would have to delay voting one day for every 20 pages of text in a bill so the public would have time to read and understand it. A section of every law passed would have to include an explanation of what part of the Constitution empowers Congress to act on the issue.

Members of Congress could not pick out parks or roads in their districts to fund, according to Paul's platform. Congress would have to balance its budget every year, a move that could result in billions of dollars in cuts to politically popular programs. Lawmakers would simply send money to states for education, instead of imposing a variety of rules on schools through the U.S. Department of Education, which Paul wants to eliminate. Companies that receive federal contracts for more than $1 million would be barred from lobbying or giving money to political action committees.

And on the campaign trail Monday, Paul hinted he might be the kind of senator who would block unemployment aid to people out of work if Congress didn't find other programs to cut to fund the benefits. He praised the man he is running to replace, retiring Sen. Jim Bunning (R-Ky.), for taking up that cause earlier this year.

"There is a Tea Party platform and some people say, 'when you win the primary, you'll have to run away from the Tea Party," Paul told a crowd here. "I think the Tea Party represents a very mainstream message. If you poll Republicans, 70 to 80 percent are for term limits, but if you poll Democrats, 70 to 80 percent are for term limits."

Paul's opponent in the primary, Kentucky Secretary of State Trey Grayson, said these positions would be a political problem in the general election if Paul were the GOP nominee.

"Democrats are salivating to run against a guy who can be portrayed as anti-farmer, anti-teacher and anti-Kentucky," Grayson said Monday.

If Paul came to Washington, he might have an even harder time with these ideas than on the campaign trail. Term limits and eliminating the Department of Education failed when Republicans pushed them after winning control of Congress in 1994, and party leaders have not put them back into the GOP platform since.

Raising the retirement age is controversial among older voters, making most politicians in both parties wary of the issue. Even Republicans in Congress refused to back Bunning's effort to force Congress to fund extending unemployment benefits.

But Paul dismisses the criticism that his ideas, or those of the broader movement of which he is part, are somehow impractical. Pressed by reporters here on Monday, he said that if Congress did not start the process for a constitutional amendment for term limits, he would call on the state legislature in Kentucky and other states to push the issue. (A constitutional amendment requires the backing of two-thirds of the members of both houses of Congress and three-fourths of the country's state legislatures).

Asked if he was "overpromising" to his supporters on the campaign trail, he said: "I am promising them exactly what I will do,"

"Nobody can guarantee victory," Paul said, arguing that his potential colleagues in Congress (if Paul is elected) could block his proposals. But, referring to his balanced budget proposal, he said, "I will introduce it and I will make it a national issue. I can't promise victory, but I promise I will make it part of the national discussion."
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 05:23 pm
@wandeljw,
It will be interesting, wandeljw, to watch the outcome of the primaries today. I have Specter losing to Sestek in PA and Lincoln barely getting enough votes in the Dem primary in AR to force a run off in 3 weeks.
I think Rand Paul, the candidate supported by the teaparty people, will win in KY over the establishment Repub candidate, TrayGrayson.
What I find interesting about the Tea Party is how they have largely remained focused on the issues Rand Paul has articulated. A lot of folks want to get under their umbrella; wanting to talk about abortion, immigration, gays etc. But the leaders of the movement, whoever they are, don't want to go there.
Smart move.
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 05:59 pm
In KY, Rand 59% vs Grayson at 37%
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 06:47 pm
@realjohnboy,
CBS announced that Rand Paul won. The upcoming campaign may feature a lot of "tea party" rhetoric.
0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 07:31 pm
Gosh! That name! I would run away from it without talking to him!
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 08:45 pm
I kind of forget which thread I was on.
Fox News in PA and the AP say that Joe Sestek has defeated Arlen Spector 53%-47% in the Democratic primary.
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  0  
Reply Tue 18 May, 2010 09:11 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Okie, I cannot find any evidence that any taxes on personal incomes drive up the wage scales of anyone.

Therefore, I can find zero evidence that "personal income tax does most definitely equal the equivalent of taxing productivity, as it ends up being a cost of wages or labor." The cost of raxes on personal incomes is a cost on personal incomes. It is not a cost on productivity.

If all federal taxes were replaced by a uniform sales tax, the same would be true: the cost of the tax on personal expenditures would not be a cost on productivity.

If a tax on personal incomes were to be logically proven to be a tax on productivity, then it would have to logically follow that a tax on personal expenditures would have to also be a tax on productivity.

Employers pay salaries to their employees based on what the employee does for the employer and on competition for competent employees. Employers have not increased salaries because of increased taxes on salaries. Likewise, they have not decreased salaries because of decreased taxes on salaries.

ican, the entire economic system of production and consumption is tied together, but I think taxing wages is a more direct tax upon production, simply because wages or labor is an important component of the cost of production of anything, whether it be a product or service. Ultimately, higher cost of labor will then increase the prices of products and services, which will then also will affect consumption. Conversely, if you tax consumption at the point of consumption, such as a retail sales tax, it will tend to suppress consumption, which will also ultimately tend to suppress productivity, due to lower demand for products and services. What this all boils down to in my view, is determining the best point in the economic cycle that is most efficient, even handed, and fair to extract the taxes from the people. No matter where in the system the tax is extracted, it will ultimately affect the entire economic system, but I still tend to think taxing consumption makes more sense than taxing productivity, labor, wages, or earnings. My primary reason for this is the fact that what you tax more, you get less of, thats just a basic principle, and so I although I dislike all taxes, if we have to do it, I would prefer taxing consumption than I would taxing productivity, because I think it would be a healthier and more fair system for society. To conclude however, I give such a system very very little chance of serious consideration, and even if it was considered, politicians would likely want to add a consumption tax, not replace the existing income tax with it, which I would adamantly oppose. I would never advocate a retail sales tax be added without doing away with or eliminating the income tax.
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 08:32 am
Quote:
Democrats relish Paul's GOP win in Ky. Senate race
(By BRUCE SCHREINER and ROGER ALFORD, Associated Press, May 19, 2010)

BOWLING GREEN, Ky. " Democratic leaders were relishing the Republican primary victory of tea party candidate Rand Paul, suggesting he will be an easy target for them in November for Kentucky's U.S. Senate seat.

In a closely watched race across the country as a test of the tea party movement's strength, Paul easily defeated GOP establishment favorite Trey Grayson Tuesday night, garnering about 59 percent of the vote.

Chairman of the Democratic Senatorial Campaign Committee, Sen. Robert Menendez, said he believes Paul is better for Democrats to face in the general election. He said there is a stark contrast between Rand and his opponent, state Attorney General Jack Conway.

"Rand Paul would abolish the Department of Education, would disband the Federal Reserve, and would end farm subsidies for Kentucky's farmers," Menendez said in a statement. "Rand Paul may love the national media spotlight but he has shown no interest in growing Kentucky's economy or creating new jobs."

Paul insisted Republicans will unite in the November election in a state where he said President Barack Obama was less popular than ever. He told the CBS "Early Show" he's already been talking with Republican party officials about working together and expects to draw support from independent voters, too.

"The tea party message is popular well outside the Republican Party," Paul said on CBS early Wednesday.

Conway won a hard-fought primary with 44 percent of the vote to Lt. Gov. Daniel Mongiardo's 43 percent. Mongiardo barely lost six years ago to retiring Republican Sen. Jim Bunning. Conway pointed out to supporters about his chances in the fall that he drew nearly 221,000 votes to Paul's 192,000 across the state.

Democratic National Committee Chairman Tim Kaine called Paul an "extreme candidate" who used a small part of the electorate to win over Grayson, but not in the fall.

"Rand Paul's positions fail to resonate beyond the far-right Republican segment of the electorate that supported him tonight," said Kaine.

For his part, Paul sounded unwavering in his conservative views heading into the race against Conway.

"People are already saying now you need to weave and dodge, now you need to switch," Paul said in his victory speech. "Now you need to give up your conservative message. You need to become a moderate. You need to give up the tea party. ... The tea party message is not a radical message. It's not an extreme message. What is extreme is a $2 trillion deficit."

Paul, the son of Texas congressman and former GOP presidential candidate Ron Paul, struck a chord with conservative Republican voters frustrated with soaring budget deficits. Paul promised to vote only for a balanced budget, to eliminate congressional earmarks and to institute term limits. Grayson said it isn't practical to vote only for a balanced budget, objected to the elimination of earmarks and opposed term limits.

Paul's win gives a tea party activist a key win in a statewide election that could embolden the fledgling political movement in other states. The Kentucky election was being watched around the country, especially after tea party activists helped to defeat three-term Sen. Bob Bennett in Utah and forced Florida Gov. Charlie Crist to abandon the GOP to make an independent run for the Senate.

GOP Sen. John Cornyn, chairman of the National Republican Senatorial Committee, sees Paul as a strong candidate in contrast to Conway who, Cornyn said, "has made clear that he will serve as another rubber stamp for President Obama."

"If he makes it to Washington, voters can expect Conway to simply perpetuate the Democrats' failed record of higher taxes, skyrocketing job loss, and bloated government bureaucracy."

Paul began the race as a long shot against Grayson, the perceived front-runner in the race to replace Bunning, a 78-year-old former major league pitcher who opted not to seek a third term under pressure from Republican leaders who considered him politically vulnerable. Bunning ended up bucking them by endorsing Paul.

Bunning clearly relished Paul's victory, calling him a "strong conservative who will be his own man in Washington and work to end the bailouts, stop wasteful spending."

In his victory speech, Paul embraced the tea party movement while continuing to bash the way Washington does business.

"The tea party movement is huge," Paul told cheering supporters gathered at the Bowling Green country club. "The mandate of our victory tonight is huge. I think America's greatness hinges on us doing something to save the country. The tea party movement is about saving the country from a mountain of debt that is devouring our country and I think could lead to chaos."

Conway, 40, used his victory speech to try to portray Paul as outside the mainstream.

"We have a fundamental decision to make in this most important of Senate races," Conway said. "Are we going to use that passion to heat the building? Or are we going to use that passion to burn it down?"

The libertarian-leaning Ron Paul, who celebrated with his son, said the outcome signaled that "the country is shifting in our direction." Asked what message his son's victory sent to Republicans, the elder Paul said, "They ought to pay close attention to the grass roots."

Paul, a Bowling Green eye surgeon, tapped into his father's national political base to keep pace with Grayson in fundraising.

Paul had the backing of former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin, who told The Associated Press in a telephone interview that Paul's victory is a "wake up call for the country."

"This is a real time of awakening for America," she said. "We have an opportunity to not embrace the status quo but to shake things up."

The state's GOP establishment immediately rallied around Paul, with Grayson and McConnell both pledging to rally behind him.

"We'll be standing side by side on Saturday at the unity rally," Grayson said, referring to an upcoming Republican rally in Frankfort.

Tea party activist Bobby Alexander of Elizabethtown, who attended Paul's victory party, said he liked Paul's focus on lower government spending.

"We're looking for a conservative candidate that will bring the government back to the people, and I think Rand is the one ... that will do that," Alexander said.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 09:28 am
@ican711nm,
Quote:
By my definitions, an individual business owner's or share holder's gross income is the income s/he receives from their business or shares after paying all the business's operating expenses.

You don't do your own taxes, do you ican? I hope you don't do anyone elses. Your understanding of simple economic terms is beyond belief.
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 09:37 am
@realjohnboy,
This is from today's Salon:

There wasn't much suspense, but the reality is no less jarring: Ron Paul's son, a 47-year-old ophthalmologist with no previous political experience, is the Republican nominee for Senate in Kentucky -- and he's in good position to win the seat in the fall.

For months, Paul enjoyed double-digit polling leads over Trey Grayson, Kentucky's secretary of state and the handpicked choice of Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, his dominance impervious to the GOP establishment's effort to portray him as a risky general election candidate. Paul also withstood a concerted effort by his father's neoconservative enemies to delegitimize his candidacy; Rudy Giuliani and Dick Cheney were among those who sided with Grayson.

When the results began streaming in shortly after 7 P.M. on the East Coast, it was clear a Paul landslide was in the offing.

Many will credit Paul's triumph to the Tea Party movement, which he embraced wholeheartedly. There is something to this; after all, many original Tea Party activists are veterans of Ron Paul's 2008 presidential campaign. But as it has grown, the Tea Party movement has become virtually indistinguishable from the Republican Party base. This makes Paul's achievement that much more remarkable: In racking up such an enormous margin, he managed to unite factions of the GOP that don't frequently see eye-to-eye.

With Paul as the GOP nominee, national Democrats will now talk up the Kentucky race as a chance for a pick-up this fall -- especially if the Democratic establishment's preferred candidate, state Attorney General Jack Conway, wins his primary. (Early returns showed Conway, who had trailed Lt. Gov. Dan Mongiardo for most of the campaign before pulling into a statistical tie in the final week, leading.) The logic is simple: With his libertarian economic views (and family name), Paul will be easy to caricature as a quirky extremist.

That's the theory, at least. But Paul may be harder than Democrats believe to knock off. For one thing, he's a far more charismatic and savvy communicator than his father -- not quite as easy to caricature as a quack. Moreover, the political playing field in Kentucky in 2010 isn't exactly level. The state has conservative leanings to begin with. Add in the fact that midterm elections almost always boost the out-of-power party; the fact that Barack Obama has never really caught on in the state; and the fact that his popularity in Kentucky has been further ravaged by the economy -- suddenly, a Paul victory in November hardly seems improbable.

Certainly not as improbable as his victory tonight seemed a year ago.

0 Replies
 
plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 09:39 am
@parados,
It is beyond belief! He seems to understand nothing! His syntax is impossible as well which calls to mind the old adage about language use.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 10:07 am
Quote:

Big wins for the tea party movement!
Fellow Patriots,

The tea party movement took some hits tonight, but also came out strong in other areas.

Here’s the briefing on this evening’s elections.

Kentucky
Rand Paul came away with a stunning win in his primary race against establishment backed Grayson. Polls showed an almost dead tie in the race, yet Paul is currently out front by almost 25%!

This was a huge blow to the NRSC and the national Republican establishment, and a huge win for tea party activists across Kentucky.

Arkansas
Tim Griffin pulled off a big win in Arkansas’ 2nd Congressional District Primary, and will likely get out endorsement next week (pending our advisory board’s approval).

Pennsylvania
We’ve supported Pat Toomey for Senate since late 2009, and we were happy to see him perform strong in his primary tonight. Pat Toomey will go on to face Joe Sestak in the general election in November.

Tim Burns, the underdog Republican in the race for the late Murtha’s seat, lost his bid for the special election in Pennsylvania’s 12th district. Burns did, however, win his primary race and will advance on the the general election in November.

The night was in no way perfect by any means, but there was plenty of success to point at and be proud of movement performance.

plainoldme
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 10:16 am
@ican711nm,
The Tea Totalitarians are not patriots but the barbarians within the gates.
H2O MAN
 
  0  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 10:24 am
@plainoldme,


POM, what do you know about patriotism?
What do you know about the T.E.A. party movement?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 May, 2010 10:25 am
@okie,
Okie wrote:
No matter where in the system the tax is extracted, it will ultimately affect the entire economic system, but I still tend to think taxing consumption makes more sense than taxing productivity, labor, wages, or earnings. My primary reason for this is the fact that what you tax more, you get less of, thats just a basic principle, and so I although I dislike all taxes, if we have to do it, I would prefer taxing consumption than I would taxing productivity, because I think it would be a healthier and more fair system for society.

Okie, I agree with this paragraph except for the clause: "taxing consumption makes more sense than taxing productivity, labor, wages, or earnings."

In general, raising the tax level above that point on the Laffer curve causes fed revenues to decrease with further increases in taxes. I don't know where that point is. However, I suspect its where the effective tax on annual gross peronal income--with zero fed taxes on anything else-- is about 15%. This occurs for among other reasons because too high a tax rate reduces what people have to spend and invest, which in turn depresses the economy.

My rejection of the fair tax is based primarily on the fact that those whose consumption tax is not totally refunded are in effect taxed such that those with the smaller excess above that refund amount are taxed at a larger rate than are those with larger excesses.
0 Replies
 
 

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