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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 09:18 am
HELP!!! THE WORLD IS TURNING DOWNSIDE OVER!!!

from todays Financial Times (for goodness sake)
Quote:
Obama is the better choice
Published: October 26 2008 19:31 | Last updated: October 26 2008 19:31
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/1d0b127c-a380-11dd-942c-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

RUSH! ANN! GLEN! PLEASE PLEASE TURN IT BACK!!!

0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 09:32 am
Gad! Now even I'm getting sick...
O Hanlon just endorsed Obama.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 09:38 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Gad! Now even I'm getting sick...
O Hanlon just endorsed Obama.


Brookings Institute O'Hanlon?

Barf

Cycloptichorn
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 10:24 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Yeah. Rather interesting phenomenon presently in the fragmentation of the neoconservative community itself, quite aside from the other communities on the right who are spinning off in all directions.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 10:40 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
Republicanism ≠ Conservatism
William Randolph prepares to jump ship:

When I read something like this
Quote:
October 22, 2008
Congressman admits saying, 'Liberals hate real Americans'
, it makes me realize: there are only so many times I can tell people that I'm a conservative, but not that kind of conservative before it becomes clear that I'm using the wrong word. Like all words, the meaning of “conservative” emerges from a complex communal process. It's not mine to control. So do I spend the next few years putting the word in dissociative quotation marks? Or do I just let it go free, knowing that if the word does not come back, then we were never meant to be together in the first place?

It might be fun to try to keep the word for contrarian purposes, or just out of sheer stubbornness, but: what's the point?
http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/


this touches on what I've been thinking about this thread as I've been reading along. The title here should be Foxfyre's conservatism, not American conservatism. Foxfyre is attempting to delineate/define/defend her own view of what conservatism should mean/means to her. That's fair.

What's not fair is for Foxfyre, or anyone debating the points with her, to think they're talking about American conservatism. At this point, it's simply one woman's opinion thread.

blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:24 am
@ehBeth,
You've got it, bethie.

It's an inevitable internal debate that 'conservatives' will now have to wrestle with. Foxfyre's mistake is really to refuse to wrestle with alternative conceptions of the term, at least to do that in any serious manner. We see the same behavior from people like Limbaugh (and all rightwing talk radio I listen to) which are carving themselves into an increasingly isolated, narrow and angry definition (big tent bad, as Rush has just explained). But it wasn't at all difficult to predict precisely this consequence.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:38 am
ehbeth writes
Quote:
this touches on what I've been thinking about this thread as I've been reading along. The title here should be Foxfyre's conservatism, not American conservatism. Foxfyre is attempting to delineate/define/defend her own view of what conservatism should mean/means to her. That's fair.

What's not fair is for Foxfyre, or anyone debating the points with her, to think they're talking about American conservatism. At this point, it's simply one woman's opinion thread.


So as different ones of us have written out our definition of modern American Conservatism and that has been agreed to by others, that doesn't count? I did start the thread for the specific purpose of discussing modern American conservatism because it is so poorly understood by so many. The purpose of the thread was to discuss the definition, what it is, the principles and concepts behind it, and its modern applications. The opening post also included my opinion that the Republicans have fallen out of favor mostly because they have violated the basic principles of modern American Conservatism. (Nimh and others disagreed with that based on polling data, but I think failed to make a good argument for how I was wrong about it.)

Asherman and others think that it is extremist views from the fringe that got the Republicans in trouble and he may be right too, but there is nothing extreme in modern American Conservatism at least as I understand it. Ican has been most interested in strict interpretations of the Constitution, and that's fair game though I think we have to also consider what the words in the Constitution meant to those who wrote them.

Rather than others providing their understanding of what modern American conservatism is, however, most have spent their efforts attacking me and criticizing me for offering the definition or attempting to discuss the concept as I see it. Or, like Blatham, they spam the thread with non-related items rather than putting those on more appropriate threads.

So the fact that I have made a good effort to define the term makes it a one-woman thread? Is it inappropriate for me to do so? Have I denied anybody else their opinion? Am I wrong in my definition? If so, why is nobody else addressing that?
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:46 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
Am I wrong in my definition? If so, why is nobody else addressing that?


Uh...you gotta be joking. I've provided you with dozens of varying definitions and conceptions as stated by other conservatives.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 11:52 am
@blatham,
Quote:
Fox: I did start the thread for the specific purpose of discussing modern American conservatism because it is so poorly understood by so many.


Especially by the Conservatives themselves, apparently Laughing

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 12:16 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Quote:
Am I wrong in my definition? If so, why is nobody else addressing that?


Uh...you gotta be joking. I've provided you with dozens of varying definitions and conceptions as stated by other conservatives.


You've posted a long series of cuts and pastes of mostly snotty pieces, but you have not established any author as a conservative or how the person is expressing a conservative point of view. Had you done so I would have been quite interested in those pieces as well as your comments.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 12:24 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

blatham wrote:

Quote:
Am I wrong in my definition? If so, why is nobody else addressing that?


Uh...you gotta be joking. I've provided you with dozens of varying definitions and conceptions as stated by other conservatives.


You've posted a long series of cuts and pastes of mostly snotty pieces, but you have not established any author as a conservative or how the person is expressing a conservative point of view. Had you done so I would have been quite interested in those pieces as well as your comments.


You have to be something, to offer a definition of that thing?

I'll remember that the next time you offer a definition of Liberalism, or present a Conservative's definition of it.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 12:38 pm
On the whole idea of taking what Citizen A legally and ethically earned and giving it to Citizen B who didn't earn it, here's a pretty good illustration from my e-mail received today:

Quote:
Today on my way to lunch I passed a homeless guy with a sign that read "Vote Obama, I need the money." I laughed.

Once in the restaurant my server had on a "Obama 08" tie, again I laughed as he had given away his political preference--just imagine the coincidence.

When the bill came I decided not to tip the server and explained to him that I was exploring the Obama redistribution of wealth concept. He stood there in disbelief while I told him that I was going to redistribute his tip to someone who I deemed more in need--the homeless guy outside. The server angrily stormed from my sight.

I went outside, gave the homeless guy $10 and told him to thank the server inside as I've decided he could use the money more. The homeless guy was grateful.

At the end of my rather unscientific redistribution experiment I realized the homeless guy was grateful for the money he did not earn, but the waiter was pretty angry that I gave away the money he did earn even though the actual recipient needed the money more.

I guess redistribution of wealth is an easier thing to swallow in concept than in practical application.


OR IS JUST DISTRIBUTION OF SOMEONE ELSE'S WEALTH THAT IS THE GREAT IDEA?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 12:40 pm
@Foxfyre,
Except for the fact that it's made up. Also, it's not an accurate reflection of our taxation system at all.

I guess it's a good example of how faulty your argument has been, but not one that I would have posted in support of my own position, were I you...

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 12:43 pm
One last time, as you apparently missed the first several dozen times I've said it, the Conservative principle here has nothing to do with tax structure, tax codes, tax laws, tax anything. It has to do with the principle that should guide what our tax structure should be. Maybe that is too difficult a concept for a liberal to understand? I don't know. It seems so very easy to understand for me.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 12:46 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

One last time, as you apparently missed the first several dozen times I've said it, the Conservative principle here has nothing to do with tax structure, tax codes, tax laws, tax anything. It has to do with the principle that should guide what our tax structure should be. Maybe that is too difficult a concept for a liberal to understand? I don't know. It seems so very easy to understand for me.


Of course it's easy to understand for you - you are self-defining your own argument. You ought to ask yourself if you are doing a good job of that, as it seems no other poster here shares your definition of what is being discussed or even characterizes your argument that way.

The principles represented in the fake anecdote you passed along do not represent the principles that we find in our real taxation system in any way. It's a false analogy. Maybe that's too difficult a concept for a Conservative to understand?

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 01:59 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
So the fact that I have made a good effort to define the term makes it a one-woman thread? Is it inappropriate for me to do so? Have I denied anybody else their opinion? Am I wrong in my definition? If so, why is nobody else addressing that?


Many have pointed out errors in your thinking and you ignore them or claim they don't understand the topic.

Have you denied us our opinion? No.

Have you accepted that we can have an opinion that is valid if it is not the same as yours? No
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:13 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

One last time, as you apparently missed the first several dozen times I've said it, the Conservative principle here has nothing to do with tax structure, tax codes, tax laws, tax anything. It has to do with the principle that should guide what our tax structure should be. Maybe that is too difficult a concept for a liberal to understand? I don't know. It seems so very easy to understand for me.


If your argument has nothing to do with taxation then what does it have to do with?

It is a given that taxation takes money from people. If you don't want to deal with taxation then you have essentially removed the "taking money from A" in your example. Without taxation there is no taking of money from A. Taxes are the way government take money. There is no other way that government does it.

The problem Fox, is once you remove taxation from your equation, that leaves you with not giving money to the poor as the only thing left that you claim conservatives stand for. Are you really willing to argue that conservatives are against giving money to the poor?


Lets examine your argument.
You think it is immoral for governments to take money from A and give to B.
Governments only take money from A through taxation.
You say we need to remove taxation from the equation.
That means we have to remove how the money is taken from A
Once we remove how the money is taken from A it removes A from the equation since there is no longer a mechanism to take money from A.
If we remove how money is taken from A it leaves us with just government giving money to B
That leaves us with it is immoral to give money to B.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 02:14 pm
AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

Quote:
Ted Stevens, the longest-serving Senate Republican in history and patriarch of Alaska politics, was found guilty of felony charges for making false statements.

The verdict could spell the end of a 40-year Senate career for a man who rose to be one of the most dominant figures in the upper chamber and who helped transform Alaska in its 50 years of statehood. The verdict was reached after the jury deliberated since Wednesday and found the 84-year-old senator guilty of failing to report more than $250,000 in gifts from Bill Allen, the former head of Veco Corp., and other friends.

The jury did not seem to buy the explanation from Stevens that Allen showered him with gifts he didn't want and was unaware of, and that he believed the $160,000 he gave to another contractor covered all costs for the home renovations.


http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/stevens-guilty-of-felony-charges-2008-10-27.html

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 05:27 pm
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
You've posted a long series of cuts and pastes of mostly snotty pieces, but you have not established any author as a conservative or how the person is expressing a conservative point of view. Had you done so I would have been quite interested in those pieces as well as your comments.

Sure. Peggy Noon talking about modern conservatism is just snotty. Like Rush, like folks attending McCain rallies. Like David Brooks. Like Colin Powell, etc etc. Irrelevant and snooty content re conservatism. Here's my third post in your thread (page three)...

Quote:
A 'conservative' wishing to revitalize or rehabilitate their party and movement could do far worse than to look here... http://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-Conservatism-American-Political-Lost/dp/0195335589

Quote:
Review
Mickey Edwards is a rarity--a long-time professional politician with a deep sense of history and philosophy, someone who combines a knowledge of politics and policy with an intellectually sophisticated framework. Even more rarely, he is someone who has a strong and consistent political philosophy and does not bend it to fit the times or short-term political circumstances. Edwards brings all these traits, along with an elegant writing style and a passion for the American Constitution, to his book Reclaiming Conservatism. Another rarity--this book is accessible to the layperson but will resonate to constitutional scholars as well. It should be read by every high-school student studying civics--and by every politician, and especially every presidential candidate, who pontificates on the American political system and the US Constitution."--Norman Ornstein, Resident Scholar, American Enterprise Institute for Public Policy Research

"A clarion call for American conservatives to return to their philosophical roots: a strong and independent Congress, limited and decentralized government, personal liberty, and peace through strength. Writing with passion, wisdom and lucidity, former conservative Republican House member Mickey Edwards provides a scathing critique of the Republican Congress's acquiescence in the dangerous and unprecedented concentration of power in the Bush presidency and offers an alternative strategy for governance that is consistent with our constitutional system and conservative principles. Reclaiming Conservatism is a tour de force--it deserves the widest possible readership, among activists and concerned citizens."--Thomas E. Mann, Senior Fellow, The Brookings Institution

"Mickey Edwards, one of the founders of the modern conservative movement, has written a book that rings as clear as the Liberty Bell, warning of the threat today's conservatives pose to the Constitution and the rule of law. He and I disagree about many things, including his assessments of Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan, but his unflinching assessment of our endangered political order ought to be read by every American citizen. It's a message that is all the more important because of the messenger."--Sean Wilentz, Princeton University

"A champion of Barry Goldwater and a long-time leader among conservatives, Mickey Edwards minces no words in this stinging indictment of the men and movements that he blames for betraying conservative principles. George W. Bush, Newt Gingrich, Denny Hastert, Pat Robertson, neo-conservatives, neo-racists--all those and more come in for a lambasting. A good many Republicans will hate this book, but Barry Goldwater would likely have had a different view--that it is a courageous effort to help regain the conscience of conservatives."--David Gergen, Professor of Public Service, Director, Center for Public Leadership, Harvard University


Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Oct, 2008 05:29 pm
@blatham,
Haven't you heard? Noonan and Brooks have been excommunicated from the Republican party.

Cycloptichorn
 

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