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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 08:45 am
@Foxfyre,
Yup, just as I thought.

Quote:

It would not violate the social contract for the people to have an option to also check off an amount to fund relief for the goverment to use for poor or those undergoing unexpected hardships. But forced charity does violate the social contract and I believe it is one of the primary causes for much of the corruption and inefficiency in our government.


There is no 'forced charity' or violation of the social contract. This is the error which invalidates your whole argument. Refundable tax credits are not 'forced charity.'

Cycloptichorn
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 08:55 am
@Cycloptichorn,
What refundable tax credits? I don't recall any mention of refundable tax credits.

But since you bring it up, how is it not charity for Citizen B to receive such a credit and Citizen A not being allowed to do so?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 09:37 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

What refundable tax credits? I don't recall any mention of refundable tax credits.

But since you bring it up, how is it not charity for Citizen B to receive such a credit and Citizen A not being allowed to do so?


Citizen A is allowed to do so. All they have to do is earn less than the cutoff level; the decision is theirs, whether to take a job which pays more than that or not.

Refundable tax credits are the majority of what you are talking about, unless you want to start railing against welfare, which would be a supremely boring argument.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 09:42 am
Okay, Cyclop takes the view that it isn't charity because Citizen A has the option of impoverishing himself to the level of Citizen B and receiving the tax credit too.

(That does beg the question of who will pay taxes if everybody opts to do that, huh? And it also begs the question of the definition of charity which in this context means the government taking the property of one for the personal benefit of another who is deemed needier.)
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 09:58 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
The social contract did not allow the predator to use the government to take property from one person and provide it for the private benefit of another as that would leave the people no better off than they were when everybody fended for himself. John Locke was quite clear about that, as were those who broke with England and set about setting up a new nation in which unalienable rights were inviolate.
Yours is an interesting reading of Locke Fox. Could you point us to where he said it?




Locke has this to say about property prior to government in his 2nd treatise.
Quote:
Right and conveniency went together; for as a man had a right to all he could employ his labour upon, so he had no temptation to labour for more than he could make use of. This left no room for controversy about the title, nor for encroachment on the right of others; what portion a man carved to himself, was easily seen; and it was useless, as well as dishonest, to carve himself too much, or take more than he needed.


Locke then has this to say this -
Quote:
For when any number of men have, by the consent of every individual, made a community, they have thereby made that community one body, with a power to act as one body, which is only by the will and determination of the majority:


And finally Locke says this which seems to directly contradict your statement Fox
Quote:
To understand this the better, it is fit to consider, that every man, when he at first incorporates himself into any commonwealth, he, by his uniting himself thereunto, annexed also, and submits to the community, those possessions, which he has, or shall acquire, that do not already belong to any other government: for it would be a direct contradiction, for any one to enter into society with others for the securing and regulating of property; and yet to suppose his land, whose property is to be regulated by the laws of the society, should be exempt from the jurisdiction of that government, to which he himself, the proprietor of the land, is a subject.


Locke says natural property rights mean that one owns only what one needs.
Locke then says that upon joining a community all property comes under the jurisdiction of that community which is governed not by the single property owner but by the majority opinion within that community. I can find your interpretation of Locke nowhere in his writings without mangling his meaning beyond comprehension. Could you direct me to where he said what you are claiming he said?

Locke also says this..
Quote:
It is true, governments cannot be supported without great charge, and it is fit every one who enjoys his share of the protection, should pay out of his estate his proportion for the maintenance of it. But still it must be with his own consent, i.e. the consent of the majority, giving it either by themselves, or their representatives chosen by them: for if any one shall claim a power to lay and levy taxes on the people, by his own authority, and without such consent of the people, he thereby invades the fundamental law of property, and subverts the end of government: for what property have I in that, which another may by right take, when he pleases, to himself?
Taxation in the US is based on the consent of the majority and their representatives chosen by that majority.

I think you need to actually read Locke before you try to tell us what he said Fox.
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 09:59 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Okay, Cyclop takes the view that it isn't charity because Citizen A has the option of impoverishing himself to the level of Citizen B and receiving the tax credit too.

(That does beg the question of who will pay taxes if everybody opts to do that, huh? And it also begs the question of the definition of charity which in this context means the government taking the property of one for the personal benefit of another who is deemed needier.)



Nobody will opt to do this, for it is an extremely dumb argument. It leaves you poor. The idea that anyone is really benefiting in any huge way from tax credits is ridiculous - the only people who receive money back are ones who have extremely little to begin with.

Parados,

Quote:

I think you need to actually read Locke before you try to tell us what he said Fox.


Thank you, I was too lazy to look up the relevant passages.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 10:04 am
@Foxfyre,
You do make interesting arguments after pretending you understood Locke.

Since property is nothing but the fruits of labor and property is under the jurisdiction of the government consented to, by impoverishing himself A is giving all of his property to the government. It kind of defeats your argument about the government can't take all his property don't you think?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 10:07 am
@Foxfyre,
Let me ask you a question in light of Locke's statements Fox.

Locke says it is dishonest to have more property than you need.

Do you think it is moral to be dishonest?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 10:09 am
I have appointments that I have to get to, but I will be back to decimate your argument shortly Paradox. (I did a college thesis on Locke. I'm pretty sure that I'm on solid ground in the principles that he furthered.)
parados
 
  2  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 10:22 am
@Foxfyre,
I will be off to do stuff the rest of the day but I can't wait to see what you come up with. Quotes that actually support your statements are required.


Warning - quick sand can often look like "solid ground"
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 10:34 am
@Foxfyre,
I didn't write my thesis about Locke, but you can't avoid hime at university when you study history and political sciences.

[And we'll stay again just miles away from his burial place in two days Very Happy ]
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 10:50 am
I accidently came across the following discussion on C-Span last night taking place at Georgetown between Frum and Shrum. Immediately thought of you, Fox. I totally agree with what Frum had to say about how the Republican party needs to change. It also addresses some of what Ash was talking about in his post on the previous page.

Please watch. http://www.c-spanarchives.org/library/index.php?main_page=product_video_info&products_id=281897-1&showVid=true

(How do I make that an imbedded video? What do I put in the code brackets ?
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 11:43 am
@squinney,
the video must be from youtube as I understand and the code is

<youtube></youtube> only replaceing the "<" with "["

Can you digg it?

T
K
O
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 12:58 pm
@Diest TKO,
Oh, thanks TKO.
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 02:56 pm
Quote:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/locke/
John Locke
First published Sun Sep 2, 2001; substantive revision Sat May 5, 2007
John Locke (b. 1632, d. 1704) was a British philosopher, Oxford academic and medical researcher, whose association with Anthony Ashley Cooper (later the First Earl of Shaftesbury) led him to become successively a government official charged with collecting information about trade and colonies, economic writer, opposition political activist, and finally a revolutionary whose cause ultimately triumphed in the Glorious Revolution of 1688. Much of Locke's work is characterized by opposition to authoritarianism. This opposition is both on the level of the individual person and on the level of institutions such as government and church. For the individual, Locke wants each of us to use reason to search after truth rather than simply accept the opinion of authorities or be subject to superstition. He wants us to proportion assent to propositions to the evidence for them. On the level of institutions it becomes important to distinguish the legitimate from the illegitimate functions of institutions and to make the corresponding distinction for the uses of force by these institutions. The positive side of Locke's anti-authoritarianism is that he believes that using reason to try to grasp the truth, and determining the legitimate functions of institutions will optimize human flourishing for the individual and society both in respect to its material and spiritual welfare. This in turn, amounts to following natural law and the fulfillment of the divine purpose for humanity.
...

Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 03:18 pm
@ican711nm,
I could imagine that James Tully, A Discourse on Property: John Locke and His Adversaries (1980, reissued 1982) gives a more detailed view than an encyclopaedia entry. [Foxfyre certainly will know this accredited scholar on the political philosophy of John Locke.]

His book An approach to political philosohy: Locke in context might be some help as well ... and it's online at google.books.
0 Replies
 
JTT
 
  0  
Reply Wed 22 Oct, 2008 08:38 pm
@parados,
Quote:
Locke says it is dishonest to have more property than you need.


John McCain is of the same mind, Parados,

Quote:

Audience member: "Why is it that someone like my father who goes to school for 13 years gets penalized in a huge tax bracket because he's a doctor."

McCain: "I think it's to some degree because we feel obviously that wealthy people can afford more."

Audience member: "Are we getting closer and closer to, like, socialism?"

McCain: "Here's what I really believe: That when you reach a certain level of comfort, there's nothing wrong with paying somewhat more."

http://able2know.org/topic/124399-1


well sometimes, if you ask him on the right day and he hasn't filled up his daily quota of flip flops or pandering to one group or another.

ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2008 01:32 pm
Quote:
Locke says it is dishonest to have more property than you need.

What does "more property than you need" mean?
What is your definition of "need?"
Who decides what you need?
Who shall select the criteria to be applied for determining what you need?

A Webster Dictionary definition of "need:"
Quote:
a lack of something requisite (ESSENTIAL, NECESSARY), desireable, or useful
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2008 01:38 pm
@ican711nm,
It's Locke's definition that matters since he's being invoked here.

T
K
O
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 23 Oct, 2008 01:47 pm
@JTT,
Obama flips to multiple flops multiple times almost every day (e.g., his characterizations of his affiliations with radical socialists like Bill Ayres; drilling for oil; results of the surge; negotiating with Iran; what he cares about; et cetera)
0 Replies
 
 

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