55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 09:41 am
@Cycloptichorn,
If TORT reform reduces our healthcare expenditures by 4% it will pay for the health insurance bill being discussed in congress ENTIRELY.

That make's it significant.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 09:44 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:

The point I've been making, and also Ican, is reducing malpractice costs will not increase healthcare costs, and all logic tells you that there will be savings if it is no more than the doctor won't need to raise his fees to upgrade his equipment.

Neither Ican nor I or anybody else arguing for tort reform thinks it will solve the healthcare problems. But the straight costs today are not the only problem and Texas and others have proved that tort reform does result in greater access to doctors and insurers and I doubt anybody can show how increased cmpetition in anything has not been effective in increasing options for people and/or reducing costs..


Wow, all I can say is, your two positions on this issue sure have evolved some, b/c Ican most certainly WAS claiming that tort reform DID decrease costs; not might, but did. You made noises to that same effect.

I think Tort reform should be judged on it's own merits, but saving money isn't one of them.

Btw, 50 billion dollars IS a drop in the bucket in national finance terms. It's like 1% of the budget, maybe less. We spend a lot more money than this on all sorts of crazy stuff.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 09:46 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

If TORT reform reduces our healthcare expenditures by 4% it will pay for the health insurance bill being discussed in congress ENTIRELY.

That make's it significant.


There is no reason to believe it would reduce it even 1%. No evidence has shown this will happen.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 09:48 am
@Cycloptichorn,
It may have kept costs in Texas from rising by almost 10%.

Of course, no one seems to want to try to figure out if TORT reform has done anything to help slow the increase in costs in Texas. We're all too busy having having a pissing contest.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:06 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

It may have kept costs in Texas from rising by almost 10%.


It's far more likely that it did not. Unless you can provide evidence that it did, it's rather silly to assume that it did. And the amounts don't match at all, it's highly unlikely that a reduction in 2% of the costs would lead to an overall savings of 10%.

Quote:
Of course, no one seems to want to try to figure out if TORT reform has done anything to help slow the increase in costs in Texas. We're all too busy having having a pissing contest.


How do you propose to figure this out? I certainly don't have the time to do any other research at this point. I think the burden lies on those who are proponents of the reform, to provide this information.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:07 am
@okie,
Those premiums are quite surprising. Hundreds of thousands dollars you say?

I know a couple of physicians who were in the USA, worked there, will return (one is still there).
The premium they pay is about 10€ per month (for damages up to 5 million Euroes) - valid in the USA as well.

My father, a leading physician, payed for his work in the hospital nothing, that was included in his employment contract with the hospital (thus is mostly done today as well), for his (just a couple of hours/week) work in private practise insurance was covered through his mebership in the regional doctors association.

[I've said so earlier: my car insurance costs 307 € per annum; includes an accident and breakdown cover and partially comprehensive insurance; pays up to 8 million Euros per person and 100 million Euros for any other damages.]

0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:07 am
Here's a good link that addresses the issue of tort reform.
http://tpmcafe.talkingpointsmemo.com/talk/blogs/nemokc/2009/09/health-care-the-malpractice-my.php

From NYT.
Quote:
Q. But critics of the current system say that 10 to 15 percent of medical costs are due to medical malpractice.

A. That’s wildly exaggerated. According to the actuarial consulting firm Towers Perrin, medical malpractice tort costs were $30.4 billion in 2007, the last year for which data are available. We have a more than a $2 trillion health care system. That puts litigation costs and malpractice insurance at 1 to 1.5 percent of total medical costs. That’s a rounding error. Liability isn’t even the tail on the cost dog. It’s the hair on the end of the tail.
old europe
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:12 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
It may have kept costs in Texas from rising by almost 10%.


Going by the data I've seen so far, medical malpractice costs, both in defense and in payouts (as per the article posted earlier), account for less than 2 percent of all health care costs.

Bringing down those costs radically won't eliminate them entirely, so you're looking at a potential reduction of far less than 2 percent.

According to the article posted earlier, "In 2006, the state's 26,497 commercially insured doctors saved roughly $49 million in premiums". In comparison, the total cost of personal health care in Texas in 2004 was $105.5 billion.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:24 am
@cicerone imposter,
From your link.

Quote:
Now in fairness, the rate of increase has slowed. Which gives credibility to the Right's assertion that malpractice claims are part of the problem...but it's obviously not the total solution. It's also not the ONLY factor that has contributed to the slower growth in premiums.

Other factors that have influenced the slower rate of growth for Missourians include wellness programs, coordination of benefits and use of a network of health care professionals. Some of the very same programs that have been touted by the Obama administration to control costs.


Obviously not the total solution.

So, if Obama is touting those other plans (wellness programs, etc) then why can't we talk about TORT reform?
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:28 am
@maporsche,
Who said we can't talk about it? Obama even addressed this in his last health-care speech to Congress.

Cycloptichorn
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:32 am
@old europe,
Fair enough.

Also from your article though.
Quote:
But not one of the hospitals or doctors interviewed for this article said they are cutting the prices they charge to patients or health insurers. Instead, they're reinvesting the savings in more and better health care.

For example, Denison-based Texoma Healthcare System, a 263-bed, five-facility system near the Oklahoma border, gave nurses a 17 percent raise, to $21 an hour from $18, chief executive Mackey Watkins said. This was to attract nurses during an ongoing national shortage.


I don't necessarily think that re-investing the profits that doctors and hospitals are making back into improving health care is a bad idea.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:32 am
@Cycloptichorn,
Well, I'm getting a lot of resistence here.
0 Replies
 
Rockhead
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:32 am
@Cycloptichorn,
i'd like to see tort reform discussed in a rational nonpartisan manner as well. (mebbe even some respect)

why don't you two start a real discussion about it?

(nothing much grows here, i think because of... well, you know...)
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:39 am
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:

i'd like to see tort reform discussed in a rational nonpartisan manner as well. (mebbe even some respect)

why don't you two start a real discussion about it?

(nothing much grows here, i think because of... well, you know...)


Well, I'm not a big proponent of Tort reform. I think the idea is mostly put forth by those looking to save money for Big Business. So I'm not really interested in participating in a separate discussion on this issue. I'm much more interested in Healthcare at the moment.

My primary objection has been to affirmative claims made by posters here who cannot provide the data to back those claims up.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 10:58 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
Of course, no one seems to want to try to figure out if TORT reform has done anything to help slow the increase in costs in Texas.

I'm still trying to figure out why you insist on capitalizing "tort." Do you think it's some kind of acronym? Or maybe a trademark?
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 11:09 am
@joefromchicago,
Ignorance Joe. I don't 'insist' on doing it. I did think it was an acronym. Thank you for the enlightenment.

Anything else you'd like to discuss, aside from my gramatical errors?





On a side note:
Some people seem to really focus on trivial, inconsequential things. Why is that?
old europe
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 11:18 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
I don't necessarily think that re-investing the profits that doctors and hospitals are making back into improving health care is a bad idea.


Oh, I absolutely agree.

But I'd also point out that now we've wandered off from actual, measurable data into the realm of anecdotal evidence. Following this thread and the arguments for tort reform (not that all of those arguments came from you), we've gone from "Tort reform will definitely bring down the cost of health insurance" to "Tort reform may help to slow down the increase in cost of health insurance" to "Hey, there's one hospital that raised nurses' pay after tort reform was instituted".

Color me skeptical.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 11:24 am
@old europe,
Color me skeptical as well.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 11:37 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

Ignorance Joe. I don't 'insist' on doing it. I did think it was an acronym. Thank you for the enlightenment.

Anything else you'd like to discuss, aside from my gramatical errors?

On a side note:
Some people seem to really focus on trivial, inconsequential things. Why is that?

Well, in a discussion about tort "reform," I'm not sure it's an inconsequential detail that one of the participants doesn't even know that "tort" isn't an acronym. Perhaps it's merely a grammatical error, as you suggest (although I'm not sure what rule of grammar it would violate), but it may also betray a fundamental misunderstanding of one of the basic elements of the debate.

As it is, I see a lot of discussion about whether tort "reform" would lead to lower health care costs without any discussion whatsoever about whether tort "reform" has any intrinsic merits. In other words, is there any good reason to limit malpractice awards apart from the possible affects on health care costs. After all, if all we wanted to do was lower health care costs, there are much better and more direct ways of doing it than putting a cap on malpractice awards. Yet I don't see anyone here arguing that putting a cap on malpractice damage awards is something worthwhile in itself.

As with many other Republican "reform" measures, tort "reform" focuses on a remote cause in the hopes that the benefits will "trickle down" to those who the "reform" is ostensibly intended to help. As David Bonior once said: "Republicans think that the best way to feed the birds is to give oats to the horse." I remain unconvinced that malpractice liability caps do much to cut the costs of health care to the consumer: the facts simply aren't there. I am, however, persuaded that liability caps are a boon to insurance companies and doctors, while they are an additional burden to the already injured victims of medical malpractice.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 11:43 am
@joefromchicago,
Gosh, you're so much smarter than stupid 'ole me.

You're right of course. I don't have a clue what tort means. Nor do I even know what is a grammatical error vs a capitalization error is. I'm shocked that I can even figure out how to turn this crazy computer on.
 

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