55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 01:30 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

REDs (i.e., RE-Distributers) seek to equalize wealth, because they believe it will minimize human resentment and the agression it produces.

MACs (i.e., Modern American Conservatives) seek to equalize liberty, because they believe it will maximize human accomplishment and the self esteem it produces.

However, equalizing wealth has not minimized human resentment and the agression it produces, while equalizing liberty has maximized human accomplishment and the self esteem it produces.

The original objective of the Constitutional Republic of the United States of America was equalizing liberty. Let's re-establish that original objective, and again let wealth be accumulated in proportion to accomplishment.


For the most part--there will always be anecdotal or isolated exceptions--I agree with your statements here.

Do you think equalizing liberty would be an important factor in healthcare reform? Why or why not?
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 02:04 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

http://www.mysanantonio.com/opinion/Federal_health_care_reform_would_cost_Texas_dearly.html
Web Posted: 09/11/2009 12:00 CDT
Federal health care reform would cost Texas dearly
As Congress continues its health care debate, the American public is focused squarely on the implications that current federal proposals will have on our nation's economy, health-care system and fiscal future.

“The Prognosis for National Health Insurance: A Texas Perspective,” the recent report by internationally renowned economist Arthur Laffer for the Texas Public Policy Foundation, concluded that a reform based on President Barack Obama's principles " including an estimated $1 trillion increase in federal government health subsidies over 10 years " will accelerate health-care inflation; slow our economy, cost every Texas resident an additional $4,265, and still leave about 30 million Americans uninsured.

But Laffer's report also addresses a critical angle that has been largely missing from the debate so far: what effect these proposals would have on the various states. As his research found, a larger government role in health care would impose a huge budget burden on Texas.

Texas would experience lower overall economic activity as well as increased pressures on our state budget.

Even more troublesome is the proposed expansion of Medicaid eligibility, estimated to cost as much as $600 billion over the next decade. If the federal government requires states to pay for this expansion of lower-income individuals' health insurance, the hit to Texas' budget will be staggering.

The House Tri-Committee Reform Proposal would force states to expand Medicaid eligibility to 133 percent of the poverty level and lock in current benefit levels. Although the federal government would initially cover new Medicaid enrollees under the plan, the lack of flexibility could damage Texas' ability to manage its growing Medicaid costs.

The Senate plans being discussed would force states to expand Medicaid eligibility to 150 percent of the poverty level, with the increased costs shifting to states after five years.

Even if the federal government were to absorb the full cost of Medicaid expansion, the cost to the state budget of health care reform, based on President Obama's priorities, is $8.89 billion, or $365 per Texan. Requiring Texas to foot the bill would sap as much as $28.2 billion from our state treasury.

Because Texas does not have the option to run trillion-dollar deficits, the proportion of health care expenditures as a percentage of total tax revenues would increase as well. Texas' tax collections would have to increase $2.1 billion just to cover the increase in health care expenditures in 2019 " even if the federal government bears the full cost for Medicaid expansion.

And the threat to our state budget doesn't end there. Expansion of Medicaid eligibility may create additional Medicaid costs in Texas. The Frew v. Hawkins lawsuit was based on inadequate access for Medicaid enrollees because the state's physician reimbursement was so low that not enough doctors would take Medicaid patients. Even after the reimbursement rate was increased 25 percent in 2007, the situation still exists.

Going from healthy budget surpluses to California-style financial distress in a few years " that's not the outcome Texans deserve from Congress.


Arlene Wohlgemuth is a senior fellow at the Texas Public Policy Foundation, an Austin-based nonprofit, free-market research institute.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 02:07 pm
@ican711nm,
Quote:

“The Prognosis for National Health Insurance: A Texas Perspective,” the recent report by internationally renowned economist Arthur Laffer for the Texas Public Policy Foundation,


Laughing There's a source you can trust to be wrong. The king of economic idiocy.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 02:29 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre,
I think equalizing liberty SHOULD be an important factor in healthcare reform?

No one should be compelled to purchase anything other than that required by the Constitution: for example,
"The Congress shall have power
To lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises, to pay the debts and provide for the common defense and general welfare of the United States; but all duties, imposts and excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

I don't know now whether equalizing liberty WILL be an important factor in healthcare reform.

I advocate:
(1) equal limits on medical tort awards for non-expenditures such as pain and suffering;
(2) equal access to the purchase of any health care insurance sold anyehere in the US;
(3) equal percentage deduction from income taxes owed for purchase of health care insurance;
(4) equal percentage deduction from income taxes owed for private contribution to private charities that purchase health care insurance for those who cannot otherwise afford it;
(5) equal rate over time of phaseout of medicare and medicaid health insurance.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 03:10 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

I advocate:
(1) equal limits on medical tort awards for non-expenditures such as pain and suffering;


How would you equalize this? For instance, should there be no differentiation from negligence that creates pain and suffering that is temporary and causes no permanent disability such as administering the wrong medicine or doing an unnecessary procedure as opposed to that which cripples or incapacitates or blinds or produces intractable pain for the rest of the person's life? I've seen both happen as a result of incompetence, unjustifiable carelessness, or impairment due to use of some controlled substance.

Like the CATO Institute, I do not wish to give medical providers license to be negligent. But there should and must be protection for doctors and other healthcare providers who have no reasonable way to avert an unhappy consequence when performing medically accepted procedures. For instance I know of ObGyn's who have stopped practicing because they were being sued too often for delivering less than 'perfect' babies or there were unforseen complications from a pregnancy.

I think there must be some distinction between the unexpected or unforeseen unhappy result and that which is done through malicious or intentional or careless negligence.

Quote:
(2) equal access to the purchase of any health care insurance sold anyehere in the US;


This one I think could be doable through some interpretation of anti-trust laws which would be within the federal scope of responsibility.


Quote:
(3) equal percentage deduction from income taxes owed for purchase of health care insurance;


Percentage or a flat amount up to a specified maximum? Would a deduction or a straight tax credit be preferable?

Quote:
(4) equal percentage deduction from income taxes owed for private contribution to private charities that purchase health care insurance for those who cannot otherwise afford it;


This one is already in effect and, in my opinion, it certainly should be retained.

Quote:
(5) equal rate over time of phaseout of medicare and medicaid health insurance.


At least that medicare and medicaid that is administered at the Federal level.
Setanta
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 04:42 pm
Just for the record, although i know it's futile, Fox claimed that tort reform would lead to reduced health care insurance premiums. She has not provided a scintilla of evidence that this is true. The article she has linked does not provide any evidence that tort reform will reduce health care insurance premiums.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 04:44 pm
@Setanta,
Setanta wrote:

Just for the record, although i know it's futile, Fox claimed that tort reform would lead to reduced health care insurance premiums. She has not provided a scintilla of evidence that this is true. The article she has linked does not provide any evidence that tort reform will reduce health care insurance premiums.


Add Ican to that list; he made the same claim. And while he is no longer making that claim, he most certainly has not admitted that the available evidence doesn't support the claim.

Not only that, the whole idea is a stupid one put forth by a bunch of ******* idiots to begin with. Malpractice costs - TOTAL costs, including payouts and litigated cases the insurance companies win - comes in at what, 2% of total health care spending? 5%? Let's be generous and say 7.5%. Even if the reforms cut that in half, it wouldn't even begin to address the rate of growth of health care costs -which have been rising every single year by 5-7% or more for the last decade, and in many years more than 10%, for reasons unconnected to Tort reform at all.

These are the same geniuses who backed a guy who wanted to get rid of earmarks in order to address budget deficits - never mind the fact that earmarks make up less than 1% of budgetary spending. I just get the feeling that these people are completely unable to apply basic logic and math to a complex financial situation.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 04:50 pm
@Foxfyre,
ican's comments are in blue
Foxfyre wrote:

ican711nm wrote:
I advocate:
(1) equal limits on medical tort awards for non-expenditures such as pain and suffering;

How would you equalize this? For instance, should there be no differentiation from negligence that creates pain and suffering that is temporary and causes no permanent disability such as administering the wrong medicine or doing an unnecessary procedure as opposed to that which cripples or incapacitates or blinds or produces intractable pain for the rest of the person's life? I've seen both happen as a result of incompetence, unjustifiable carelessness, or impairment due to use of some controlled substance.

I recommend a limit such that the total for non-expense tort payments be a specified constant multiple of actual expenses. I think that which causes a permanent disability does generate actual expenses like loss of x-years of income.

Like the CATO Institute, I do not wish to give medical providers license to be negligent. But there should and must be protection for doctors and other healthcare providers who have no reasonable way to avert an unhappy consequence when performing medically accepted procedures. For instance I know of ObGyn's who have stopped practicing because they were being sued too often for delivering less than 'perfect' babies or there were unforseen complications from a pregnancy.

Many doctors are sued for things that didn't actually happen--frivilous lawsuits. In such cases I think doctors or their insurers should be reimbursed for the doctor's legal expenses.

I think there must be some distinction between the unexpected or unforeseen unhappy result and that which is done through malicious or intentional or careless negligence.

I don't know how it can be proven that something done was malicious, intentional, or careless. But if that can be proven it should be proven in a criminal trial not in a civil trial.

Quote:
(2) equal access to the purchase of any health care insurance sold anywhere in the US;

This one I think could be doable through some interpretation of anti-trust laws which would be within the federal scope of responsibility.

I agree! This can be done by prohibiting states from continuing quasi-monopolies for insurers in their states.

Quote:
(3) equal percentage deduction from income taxes owed for purchase of health care insurance;

Percentage or a flat amount up to a specified maximum? Would a deduction or a straight tax credit be preferable?

For example, assume one's taxable income equals a gross income of $100,000 minus total deductions of $30,000, or $70,000. Then according to my 2009 tax schedule for "Married filing jointly,"one's income tax would be 9,350 + 0.25 x (70,000-67,900) = 9,350 + 0.25 x 2,100 = 9,350 + 525 = $9,875.

So, I recommend one be allowed to deduct up to a fixed percentage, say 30%, of that $9,875 or $2,962.50 to help pay for one's medical insurance.


Quote:
(4) equal percentage deduction from income taxes owed for private contribution to private charities that purchase health care insurance for those who cannot otherwise afford it;

This one is already in effect and, in my opinion, it certainly should be retained.

Currently, I believe one can only deduct from one's gross income to compute taxable income. One cannot yet deduct from one's tax payment.

Quote:
(5) equal rate over time of phaseout of medicare and medicaid health insurance.

At least that medicare and medicaid that is administered at the Federal level.

I agree!
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 05:22 pm
@ican711nm,
Agreeing or taking under advisement your responses. I like the fixed percentage of deduction for insurance premiums but would prefer that they be tax credits rather than deductions from gross income so long as we have an income tax.

But for this one related to receiving tax relief for contributing to charitable groups who provide healthcare to indigent or needy persons you said:

Quote:
Currently, I believe one can only deduct from one's gross income to compute taxable income. One cannot yet deduct from one's tax payment.


Without thinking it all the way through, at first blush I would object to allowing a tax credit for this kind of charitable donation and not for other kinds of charitable donations as I think that would make it non-uniform and non-equal and would unnecessarily disadvantage many worthy charities. Also, you would have everybody from the YMCA (who already provides a form of healthcare for their programs such as Silver Sneakers and aquacize for rehab patients) to Planned Parenthood to ACORN claiming they are providing healthcare to needy persons and wanting in on that deal. I think it would become a bureaucratic nightmare deciding who qualified and who didn't. Better to treat all charities alike.

And why would providing healthcare be of more social value to merit extra tax relief than would giving a meal to a hungry person at a soup kitchen or a warm winter coat to the child who doesn't have one:?


maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 05:24 pm
@Setanta,
Set, how could it NOT reduce health care premiums (or at least keep them from rising faster (I'm using Obama's preferred accounting method here)).

Less expense for the business means that they can charge less money. Even if they save only 0.01% of their budget by reducing TORT payouts, that's still a cost savings for the business, which means they don't need to raise their prices to maintain their profit margin.


I'm not saying that it's going to FIX the problems we have, or even that whatever reduction occurs would be enough to mean anything to the average consumer, but there would be A reduction.

I'm still FOR TORT reform. I don't think it works right.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 05:38 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
As one who IS familiar with 'formal debate rules'
<snip>
blatant ad hominem or direct personal insults would almost certainly cause the guilty party enough points to lose if it didn't disqualify him outright.

A good debater will effectively dismantle his opponent's argument with fact, not emotion or prejudice or weak unsupportable assertions, and will present his own argument competently to make it difficult to dismantle.


well, there's the lesson of the day
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 05:41 pm
@ehBeth,
Thank you. I thought it pretty accurate myself.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 05:44 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche, You're speaking from the POV of conservatives who usually don't have any evidence to back up their silly claims; including tort reform in Texas. Here are the actual facts about health insurance premiums in Texas since 2000.
Quote:
Health insurance premiums rose 91.6 percent in Texas

By Mary Ann Roser | Tuesday, September 15, 2009, 12:48 PM

A national report that was released today says family health insurance premiums in Texas increased 91.6 percent since 2000 " 4.6 times faster than earnings.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 05:49 pm
@cicerone imposter,
What was the national average CI?

If Texas increased by 91.6% and the rest of the country increased by more, then maybe they're on to something. You're not showing the whole argument. And really, you're and I aren't even arguing the same point. No one said that costs would still go up; I just said that they may not go up as fast (the Obama method of mathematics).


And really, isn't it just common sense that if a business reduces expenses (would TORT reform would do), it can either a) make their product cheaper, b) do nothing and earn a greater ROI. In the short term they will probably just sit and make a greater ROI, but that will only last as long as it takes for a competitor to reduce costs to gain a greater portion of the market share.

Less expense generally equals less cost.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 05:53 pm
@cicerone imposter,
In fact, from your article (a part that you DIDN'T quote)

Quote:
This year, however, the growth rate in Texas is below the national rate in which premiums grew 4.9 times faster than income between 2000 and 2009.



I don't know, maybe there is SOME impact (however it could be a number of things).
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 06:01 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

Set, how could it NOT reduce health care premiums (or at least keep them from rising faster (I'm using Obama's preferred accounting method here)).

Less expense for the business means that they can charge less money. Even if they save only 0.01% of their budget by reducing TORT payouts, that's still a cost savings for the business, which means they don't need to raise their prices to maintain their profit margin.


I'm not saying that it's going to FIX the problems we have, or even that whatever reduction occurs would be enough to mean anything to the average consumer, but there would be A reduction.

I'm still FOR TORT reform. I don't think it works right.


That's the thing right there. Whether malpractice or unnecessary tests and procedures to avoid malpractice suits is 1%, 2%, or 50% of healthcare costs, it should be part of the debate. Most of the figures that I've seen is that malpractice suits are no more than 2% of overall healthcare costs. That is about the same profit that most grocery stores receive on a typical weekly bill of groceries.

If we have a 14.4 trillion economy, and 17% of that is taken up by healthcare, if I did the math right, health care totals roughtly 2.4+ trillion. 2% of that is about 48 billion or about $160 for every man, woman, and child in the USA. That would be most of a month's healthcare premiums for a lot of families.

Some here will say that is a drop in the bucket and maybe we would reduce it only by half with tort reform. But I think if we can save $24 billion here and $24 billion in a few other places, we might find that we aren't having as much of a crisis as some seem to think that we have.
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 06:03 pm
@Foxfyre,
48 billion is roughly half of what the plans in congress will cost us per year.

If you were to save that 2%, HALF of the health care proposal would be paid for.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 06:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
ican's comments are in blue
Foxfyre wrote:

Agreeing or taking under advisement your responses. I like the fixed percentage of deduction for insurance premiums but would prefer that they be tax credits rather than deductions from gross income so long as we have an income tax.

Whoops! Obviously I didn't explain that very well, because I did mean to recommend that the fixed percentage for deduction for insurance premiums was a tax credit rather than a deduction from gross income. However, I didn't use the words tax credit. Instead, I used the verbal equivalent of algebra to try and say the same thing.

Here again is what I previously wrote:
<assume one's taxable income equals a gross income of $100,000 minus total deductions of $30,000, or $70,000. Then according to my 2009 tax schedule for "Married filing jointly,"one's income tax would be 9,350 + 0.25 x (70,000-67,900) = 9,350 + 0.25 x 2,100 = 9,350 + 525 = $9,875.>
30% of that equals the $2,962.5 tax credit I computed.


But for this one related to receiving tax relief for contributing to charitable groups who provide healthcare to indigent or needy persons you said:

Quote:
Currently, I believe one can only deduct from one's gross income to compute taxable income. One cannot yet deduct from one's tax payment.

Without thinking it all the way through, at first blush I would object to allowing a tax credit for this kind of charitable donation and not for other kinds of charitable donations as I think that would make it non-uniform and non-equal and would unnecessarily disadvantage many worthy charities. Also, you would have everybody from the YMCA (who already provides a form of healthcare for their programs such as Silver Sneakers and aquacize for rehab patients) to Planned Parenthood to ACORN claiming they are providing healthcare to needy persons and wanting in on that deal. I think it would become a bureaucratic nightmare deciding who qualified and who didn't. Better to treat all charities alike.

I'll have to rethink this. I think you're saying that to be equal liberty, all charitable deductions would have to be tax credits. Hmmm! I like that idea. I'll think about it some more.

And why would providing healthcare be of more social value to merit extra tax relief than would giving a meal to a hungry person at a soup kitchen or a warm winter coat to the child who doesn't have one:?

Good points!

0 Replies
 
slkshock7
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 06:26 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Cyclo wrote:
I work for a government (State) agency, a Law school. I spent several years during a hiatus of my college career working for a Fortune 50 company. I can not see any differences in the level of efficiency or waste. While I understand your theory, the reality of my experience has been that waste occurs just as frequently, personalities and idiots riddle private enterprise to the same level as public, and the end results come out on schedule about as often.


Well, I must say I'm surprised because your experience and mine both in govt and without are considerably at odds. I'm not convinced though that your work in a Law School equates to the type of government agency I've been involved with. I may be wrong, but I expect the lion's share of your agencies revenues to be from the tuition paid by the students. This is quite a different paradigm than DoD (or the public option organization) wherein taxes are the main (if not exclusive) source of revenue.

Quote:

Not all Gov't agencies work this way, btw. My Law school has trimmed many employees lately and my office now does the work with 4 people that we used to do with 7 - and we do it better and faster, thanks to process improvements we've made. We didn't need some 'profit motive' to make those improvements happen, either; simply caring about your job and the mission of your company is enough.


Well, hooray for your little four-person organization. I will readily admit that there are pockets of altruistic individuals who make improvements simply for the sake of job satisfaction and mission, but that's the exception not the rule. And what makes you think that what you are currently doing with 4 people couldn't be done with 3 or 2? In a profit-driven company, the bottom line would be the final judge on whether you'd adequately squeezed all possible inefficiencies from the organization, not some subjective opinion of the boss.

Quote:

I believe this is a rather childish view of the budgeting process, or perhaps just an exaggeration on your part. Either way, it is not accurate.


Not at all an exaggeration, but accepted practice everywhere in the federal government. Ask any federal government employee.

Quote:
This is a good thing, not a bad thing. If 'bosses' don't want to take the time to correct an employee's problems, and work with them, that's their failure. A company should be willing to put the same level of commitment into working with it's employees, that they expect the employees to display towards the company.


You totally missed my point. The fact is that this onerous process is NOT required in private industry. Therefore incompetence and resultant waste and inefficiencies are far easier to exclude in private industry.

Quote:
You're quite incorrect about this. The overall management cost, as a percentage of total outlays, of Medicare is lower than that of private insurance.


I'd like to see the math behind this claim. I expect you're making an apples to oranges comparison here.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  3  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 06:26 pm
@maporsche,
Quote:
Set, how could it NOT reduce health care premiums (or at least keep them from rising faster (I'm using Obama's preferred accounting method here)).


In the first place, Fox has claimed that this would be the case, and then has claimed that she has provided the evidence that this is true. But the source she cited does not support her claim, and the source which Ican provided explicitly states that after tort reform in Texas, the cost to the consumer did not go down.

How that can happen is pretty simple. Overwhelmingly, health service providers are corporate entities. If you reduce the cost to the corporate entity, they are just going to keep the difference as a dividend. But more than that, health insurance providers negotiate fee schedules with health service providers--they (the service providers) are already accepting the lowest nominal rates the insurers were able to negotiate with them for their large group coverage, so the insurers aren't saving a damned thing when malpractice insurance rates are lowered--there is no savings for them to pass along to the customer. I know this both because i have worked on the hospital side of insurance benefits/payment, and because, more recently, as a small business manager, i would routinely deal both with the service providers and the insurers.

So, in fact, there is no appreciable saving for the insurer--medical service delivery corporations make their money out of small group customers, who cannot negotiate for themselves, from self-pay customers, and from Medicaid and Medicare, which are so badly supervised that they rarely (if ever) review the accounts they are paying, let alone the rates. Additionally, health service providers routinely bill patients for the difference between the negotiated fee paid by the insurer, and the service providers highest advertised fee for the service. Their scam is easy to spot. They will send an invoice which basically says: "Your services cost $100 (that's just a throw-away number), and your insurance company has paid $65. The balance is $35." They are careful never to actually say that you owe them. If you don't pay them, and you fail to notify your group insurer, they will quickly turn the account over to a collection service, so that when those people say you owe the $35, if the insurance company gets involved, the service provider can claim, truthfully, that they never told you that you owed the money. It's appalling how many people just pay up. Since the last employer whose small business i managed had several family men working for him, it was a routine, at least once a month, that i would be calling the insurer, and then the business office of the service provider (don't even waste your time calling the clinic or the outpatient office, the therapist--whoever it is they are trying to milk you for). Invariably, the service provider says that someone (always unnamed) made a mistake, and the matter is dropped, completely.

But small employers who don't know this, self-insured people and self-pay people are just screwed. They pay the full price, even when the insurer from whom they have their small group or their self-insurance has a negotiated payment scheduled. None of these people (the service provider business offices or the insurers) employ white knights who are going to ride to your rescue--if you don't watch your own ass, the corporations will own it.

Forget common sense--it's always common, but it is rarely sensible. Health insurance providers are already paying the lowest nominal fee they could negotiate. They based their negotiating position on literally millions of pages of actuarial and billing information, and once they have arrived at a figure--they just don't give a rat's ass any longer. The amount they charge their large group customers is based on the actuarial tables, and their projected costs in the long term--and nobody is better at these calculations than insurance companies. Tort reform just doesn't do anything to save the large group insurers any money--and just as the medical service providers take it out of small group certificate holders, and self-insurers and self-pay patients, the insurers make a tidy sum off their small group customers and their self-insured customers.

As usual in the capitalist system, the only person who is reliably screwed is the individual citizen--the corporations, whether medical service providers or insurance companies, have had their asses well and truly covered since the day one.
 

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