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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 01:44 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Foxie can't discern the difference between the president's speaking to the joint session of congress and other venues; it's not surprising.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 02:17 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

It is fascinating that the leftwingers descend en masse to destroy or applaud attempted destruction of Glenn Beck for using the "R" word re President Obama. And now they descend on Joe Wilson for using the "L" word. The flap over Joe Wilson’s improper and uncivil outburst at Obama’s address to Congress cannot be condoned or defended. But worthy of the mass media hysteria it has provoked or demand for Wilson's head on a platter from the quite uncivil Democrats who booed George Bush's speeches?

The double standard is truly alive and well.


As usual, the rightwing hypocrites crawl out of the woodwork and declare themselves and their ilk to be sorrowful victims of witch hunts. The truth however, is that Glenn Beck goes on television everyday to demonize people and to call for their scalps. Joe Wilson is a scumbag opportunist who is basking in the attention he stirred up through his own unacceptable behavior. Foxfyre shames and mocks herself when she comes to this forum to preach about the evils of "double standards."
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 02:38 pm
@Debra Law,
She still hasn't become aware of her own hypocrisy; and probably never will.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 02:48 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

Don't you think that a "joint session of Congress" is a somewhat different place and audience to those in your quoted 'examples'?

Calling the President in Congress a liar is in your eyes similar to calling the President in front of 60 Del Sol High School juniors a looser?


It is, but the context is the same just the same. I do not and have not defended what Joe Wilson did nor did he defend his own action but immediately issued an appropriate apology to the President. Given the unseriousness of the offense, that should have been sufficient. But no, he remains front page news days after the offense. An offense that I would have bet a steak dinner would have been no big deal in the MSM if a Democrat had done it.

The point is however, that had a Democrat done the same thing--and many were rude and offensive when President Bush was speaking to joint sessions of Congress--every leftist here would be saying that an apology for any indiscretion would be sufficient and it would be ridiculous to make a mountain out of a molehill. As it is now, look how many of you are already defending YOUR guys as being nowhere nearly as bad as Joe Wilson.

The double standard is alive and well.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 02:53 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxie, That was not "an appropriate apology," but the white house still doesn't want to make it a big issue. There are many more important issues facing our country.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  5  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 02:56 pm
I personally don't care about the location. I don't care if what he said was rude or improper. Discussion in either is besides the point. It's irrelevant.

the substance of what Wilson said is what is important here and to that, he choose to embarrass himself by choosing to blurt out emotionally that Obama lied about something. Obama didn't lie, and that's what should be matched up here.

I don't think that Wilson disrespected the office of the President, I think he disrespected HIS office.

I don't feel sorry for the guy, and he's not a victim. He made his bed and he can sleep in it. He knows there are rules (be them right or wrong) for decorum in the halls of congress, if he wants to have an emotional outburst, then he should be prepared to accept the reprimand if he thinks it was so important to do what he did.

T
K
O
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 03:03 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest, Good points all, and I agree.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 04:35 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I do not and have not defended what Joe Wilson did nor did he defend his own action but immediately issued an appropriate apology to the President. Given the unseriousness of the offense, that should have been sufficient. But no, he remains front page news days after the offense.


The "apology" was not appropriate. Wilson merely made an excuse for his uncivil behavior and did not apologize for the libelous content of his accusation. Thereafter, he exploited his own misconduct by appearing on talk shows repeating his false accusation, basking in self-serving bravado stating "I will not be muzzled," and requesting contributions for his re-election campaign. He thrust his own despicable a$$ into the limelight causing most people to see that he's a scum-sucking, lying, flame-throwing, opportunist who doesn't deserve to occupy a congressional seat.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 04:45 pm
I'd rather the pivate medical insurance companies profit billions of dollars than the federal government medical insurance squander trillions of dollars.

Obama Medical Care will squander trillions of dollars.

The cost of private medical insurance is reducible, if all medical insurance companies in America are required to compete with all medical insurance companies in America--not just the ones in their state.

The cost of private medical insurance is reducible, if the cost of medical care provided by medical practicianers were reduced.

The cost of medical care provided by medical practicianers is reducible, if the cost of medical tort insurance for medical practicianers were reduced.

The cost of medical tort insurance for medical practicianers is reducible, if the cost of medical tort rewards were reduced.

The cost of medical tort rewards are reducible, if maximum tort rewards were reduced to a maximum multiple of actual damages.

The maximum multiple of actual damages is reducible, if Congress passes and the President signs a bill specifying what that maximum multiple shall be.

cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 04:46 pm
@Debra Law,
That's what the extreme conservatives have become; despicable congress members who have the support of like-minded republicans.

Palin, Wilson, Cheney, Rove, McCain, and Boehner; all representatives of the No Party.

ican711nm
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 04:53 pm
@ican711nm,
The cost to the individual tax payer of medical insurance can be reduced by permitting the individual tax payer to deduct some of the cost of medical insurance from federal income taxes.

Those individuals unable to afford medical insurance even with the preceding provision, can obtain their medical insurance from private medical insurance charities that receive donations, a portion of which are deductible from federal income taxes.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 05:18 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

I'd rather the pivate medical insurance companies profit billions of dollars than the federal government medical insurance squander trillions of dollars.

Obama Medical Care will squander trillions of dollars.

The cost of private medical insurance is reducible, if all medical insurance companies in America are required to compete with all medical insurance companies in America--not just the ones in their state.

The cost of private medical insurance is reducible, if the cost of medical care provided by medical practicianers were reduced.

The cost of medical care provided by medical practicianers is reducible, if the cost of medical tort insurance for medical practicianers were reduced.

The cost of medical tort insurance for medical practicianers is reducible, if the cost of medical tort rewards were reduced.

The cost of medical tort rewards are reducible, if maximum tort rewards were reduced to a maximum multiple of actual damages.

The maximum multiple of actual damages is reducible, if Congress passes and the President signs a bill specifying what that maximum multiple shall be.




ican has proven that he knows NOTHING about civil litigation, knows NOTHING about the measure of damages, and knows NOTHING about the impact of malpractice on the cost of healthcare!

Impeach ican from his position as forum conservative, torture him (because he defends torture), and then deport ican to Africa because ican is committing treason by advocating that the federal government violate the 7th Amendment to the constitution. BOOOOOOOO Ican!
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 05:42 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre.

I would like to thank you for posting that 2008 video of G. Beck interviewing Comptroller in Genral David Walker. This is absolutely breath taking and extremely depressing. I have been trying to decide whether to apply for a position on the public dole via SS now or wait until I am 65. I could legitimately be labeled a fool if I don't apply immediately for my paultry amount of SS to lessen my overall loss.

Given these questions:
1. Why have conservative leaders not notified the public of this crushing debt?
2. Why have liberal leaders not notified the public of this crushing debt?
3. Why hasn't anyone in the federal government notified us of this crushing debt?
4. Why have major media outlets (Fox News excepted) not notified us of this crushing debt ,especially, given their penchant for sensationalism?

I do not like the implied direction of leadership(Dems or Repubs) in our beloved country. Is there a U.S. Constitutional method to dissolve congress in favor of new elections? Obama is the least of our problems.

The Menu of Delayed Pain brings it all home. Note the figures of debt mentioned are for every American family. These figures are kind when one remembers that a significant number of these families DO NOT PAY TAXES. So, in reality those paying taxes will have to pay the additional 400K for those that do not (perhaps we can see a rationale to eliminate the EIC for all now so receiving).

I thank you because we decided to cut back on our expenses by cutting out all but basic cable so we don't get to view G. Beck's channel anymore. If only the Federal government had to run their house as the rest of us must.

On a lighter note, McCain-Feingold is under the constitutional microscope by the SCOTUS. Maybe this High Horse of McCain's will be hobbled? In a less hopeful vein, it looks as if Justice Stevens and/or Souter is retiring. ( http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-stevens3-2009sep03,0,5471894.story )

JM

0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 05:55 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:
The "apology" was not appropriate. Wilson merely made an excuse for his uncivil behavior and did not apologize for the libelous content of his accusation. Thereafter, he exploited his own misconduct by appearing on talk shows repeating his false accusation, basking in self-serving bravado stating "I will not be muzzled," and requesting contributions for his re-election campaign. He thrust his own despicable a$$ into the limelight causing most people to see that he's a scum-sucking, lying, flame-throwing, opportunist who doesn't deserve to occupy a congressional seat.

Joe Wilson made only one big error. He yelled at President Obama, "you're lying." He should have instead yelled, "you're falsifying." The only person outside of President Obama's close associates who actually knows whether or not President Obama actually knows his false statements are false, is President Obama, himself.

Joe apologized for his mistake of accusing the President of lying. Then Joe correctly made it clear that the President was actually falsifying. Joe was willing to let the mindreaders among us decide whether the President was lying.
0 Replies
 
JamesMorrison
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 07:26 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Cicerone imposter wrote:
Quote:
"JM, You are totally mistaken; there are differences in what kind of derivatives one wishes to address. They are not all equal even though they may be called a derivative."


Mistaken about what? Where did I imply or say derivatives were all the same whether in composition, concept, or value? My Example was that of the simplest: Futures contracts and I picked that to show that derivatives, in themselves, are not evil and certainly not worthless.

Quote:
The derivatives that banks and finance companies traded were mortgage based derivatives that were restructured over and over, and were unethical because they were being traded without the oversight of the SEC who failed their responsibility and the banks and finance companies traded them based on greed - not on their true intrinsic values.


Well you have it half right. Yes, like I pointed out in the post in question, those 'mortgage based derivatives' or MSB (Mortgage backed Securities) were at the center of the financial crisis (as were CDSs or Credit Default Swaps). But no, they were neither 'unethical' nor illegal. They (MSBs not CDSs) were under accepted regulation except that the overseeing regulating agency had to follow the rules of Congress who virtually mandated that they be rated by just three major rating agencies Fitch, S&P, and Moody's. Again, a case of government assuming it could cover all the financial possibilities by insisting on picking a few favorite companies (think GM and AIG). Further this government rating system where those doing the rating were paid by those selling the product is inherently wrong and therefore not unlike many government solutions. It’s like Consumers Reports being paid by GM to rate their line of vehicles.

So we get the triple whammy of the congressionally mandated CRA demanding the banks lend to poor credit risks, Barney Frank and Chris Dodd (Congress again) 'rolling dice' and increasing FMae and FMac (taxpayer) involvement added to a government mandated rating system that does not price risk correctly to the Frappe of Human Foibles and to everyone's surprise, apparently (except the Bush Admin who tried to cut back on taxpayer exposure to risk by reigning in the two FMs), disaster ensues, but there is more! But we will leaved the Fed be for now. However, CDSs and their lack of proper regulation would be a fertile subject for your criticisms.

JM
0 Replies
 
okie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 07:31 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
...An offense that I would have bet a steak dinner would have been no big deal in the MSM if a Democrat had done it.

The point is however, that had a Democrat done the same thing--and many were rude and offensive when President Bush was speaking to joint sessions of Congress--every leftist here would be saying that an apology for any indiscretion would be sufficient and it would be ridiculous to make a mountain out of a molehill. As it is now, look how many of you are already defending YOUR guys as being nowhere nearly as bad as Joe Wilson.

The double standard is alive and well.

I don't know if this has been posted yet, but the Democrats have already done similarly, with no apparent outcry by the press, it was no big deal, so anyone that bet you would owe you a steak dinner. And the difference is Bush was clearly telling the truth, a breath of fresh air compared to Obama.

cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 07:35 pm
@okie,
That you would equate boos with "liar" shows your inability to see the obvious difference; you are hopeless.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 07:46 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

That's what the extreme conservatives have become; despicable congress members who have the support of like-minded republicans.

Palin, Wilson, Cheney, Rove, McCain, and Boehner; all representatives of the No Party.




What are the alternatives? One party with a few candidates vying for the same position? Or, a twin Democratic Party; perhaps, a fraternal twin - Democratic Right of Center? Due to the system of one person, one vote, the discourse on both sides is less than genteel sometimes.

It is no different, in my opinion, than a sports fan. One wants their team to win, since the winning team is in power. And, notice how there are always campaign promises that never get implemented. Politics, in my opinion, is a suckers game, since we do not live forever.

Diest TKO
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 07:51 pm
@cicerone imposter,
It's not that CI. In essence they are the same gamble. I said before, I don't think that it's inappropriate, but it's a gamble, and Wilson played a bad hand even if it was the same hand as these people. Pocket aces don't always win.

What's perhaps most interesting about the dialog around Wilson now is that the GOP and conservative pop media pundits are trying to change the discussion from whether or not Wilson should be reprimanded, to whether or not he should be praised.


I swear, if the GOP was half as smart about finding solutions for problems as they are with PR, they'd be the best party.

T
K
O
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Sep, 2009 07:52 pm
@Diest TKO,
Diest TKO wrote:

It's not that CI. In essence they are the same gamble. I said before, I don't think that it's inappropriate, but it's a gamble, and Wilson played a bad hand even if it was the same hand as these people. Pocket aces don't always win. If you're going to play the shout it out game, you'd better have something to back up your claim. Bush's claims were more arguable than Obama's. That puts the fire under Wilson, not the other way around.

What's perhaps most interesting about the dialog around Wilson now is that the GOP and conservative pop media pundits are trying to change the discussion from whether or not Wilson should be reprimanded, to whether or not he should be praised.


I swear, if the GOP was half as smart about finding solutions for problems as they are with PR, they'd be the best party.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
 

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