55
   

AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 03:20 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
Seeing as no element of the current plans call for rationing or lowering Medicare benefits, I'm going to go ahead and call this Bullshit fearmongering.


Not if you do the simple math.
Obama says he is going to cut $500 million from Medicare, by simply eliminating fraud and waste.
What I want to know is why doesnt he do that now, instead of waiting for healthcare reform?

And if he does eliminate that much money, and adds as many people as different reports suggest, there is no possible way to keep the benefits the same or to not reduce benefits.
Its not physically possible.
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 03:21 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

I bet those salaries are not all equal! In fact, I bet some get bonuses.


You lost that bet. All the salaries (of the CEO's) are open, the salaries of the employees can be got via the tariffs.
None of them gets bonuses. [Might be hidden, but that would be a criminal offence.]
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 03:23 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Seeing as no element of the current plans call for rationing or lowering Medicare benefits, I'm going to go ahead and call this Bullshit fearmongering.


Not if you do the simple math.
Obama says he is going to cut $500 million from Medicare, by simply eliminating fraud and waste.
What I want to know is why doesnt he do that now, instead of waiting for healthcare reform?


Billion, not million. And Obama can't just change rules and regulations and laws on most Federal programs by fiat; they have to be passed by Congress.

Quote:
And if he does eliminate that much money, and adds as many people as different reports suggest, there is no possible way to keep the benefits the same or to not reduce benefits.
Its not physically possible.


Of course it is possible: you increase taxation to cover the cost, which is exactly what Obama is proposing doing.

I think your declaration that it is 'not possible' to do these things is a little, shall we say, incorrect and short-sighted.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 03:27 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Quote:
The truth is that the pending House bill extracts $500 billion from projected Medicare spending over 10 years, as scored by the Congressional Budget Office, by doing such things as trimming projected increases in the program’s payments for medical services, not including physicians


So by your own admission the dems are cutting Medicare and want to cause seniors to lose everything and resort to eating dogfood!!!!!

After all, those are the same fear-mongering statements that the dems used when Bush wanted to add 7% yearly to the medicare budget.
He had proposed to cut the projected yearly increases and the dems went nuts, but now that the dems are proposing the same thing its ok.

Somehow, it doesnt surprise me that you would think that way.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 03:30 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
The truth is that the pending House bill extracts $500 billion from projected Medicare spending over 10 years, as scored by the Congressional Budget Office, by doing such things as trimming projected increases in the program’s payments for medical services, not including physicians


So by your own admission the dems are cutting Medicare and want to cause seniors to lose everything and resort to eating dogfood!!!!!


Uh, no. Not so much.

Quote:

After all, those are the same fear-mongering statements that the dems used when Bush wanted to add 7% yearly to the medicare budget.
He had proposed to cut the projected yearly increases and the dems went nuts, but now that the dems are proposing the same thing its ok.

Somehow, it doesnt surprise me that you would think that way.


Please don't create Straw men. I didn't say what you are accusing me of saying and I'm certainly not responsible for the statements of any and all Democrats.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 03:31 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

So by your own admission the dems are cutting Medicare and want to cause seniors to lose everything and resort to eating dogfood!!!!!


What else besides health related things does health insurance (here: Medicare) pay in the USA? Food as well? And what is "everything people lose" paid by Medicare?
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  5  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 03:34 pm
as the market worked the way it is supposed to over the last 8 1/2 years, our monthly insurance premium went up by over $500 each. our deductible went from $200 to $400. in the prescription department, we have had to run around trying to figure out which formulary drugs are compatible together as the previous prescriptions were. whereas we paid $5 dollars a month per prescription, it is now $20 each per month.

after going to 3 doctors, all of whom agreed that it was needed, an Insurance Company Bureaucrat finally approved a CT scan of my head. apparently they put up a bit of a fight about the also needed Esophagram.

that is how the free market working the way it is supposed to has worked for me.

and that's not counting the doctor i had to leave because the insurance company began paying so poorly that he and his entire group went to a "pay on service and we will file the paperwork so the insurance company will reimburse the patient" model. how many folks can afford that? not many.

so let's see... with the free market working the way it should;

* my costs went up

* an insurance company bureaucrat is between and my doctors

* i couldn't keep my same doctor

now tell me again why i should fear obama's plans ?
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  4  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 03:38 pm
@Rockhead,
Rockhead wrote:

So the insurance companies don't get a special rate that I don't?


you mean they get a special rate, right?

some insurers negotiate the prices with vendors in advance (ginormous company to ginormous company)

others have a price list of what they will pay - and there are large companies that go over medical invoices line by line to see what fits into the price list (there are some state price lists, some are by company)

there are many permutations and combinations for the ways large insurers manage to pay less for MRI's and other services in the U.S.

it's always interesting (in a sort of ugly) way to see the difference between a "raw" invoices presented to people, and what it actually payable once it's gone through an insurance payment audit

some providers then try to bill the patient for the difference. ass-hats. It's not worth what the insurers are paying, let alone what the buggers are trying to bill.

It's definitely easier when there is one price list per jurisdiction.
0 Replies
 
Debra Law
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 03:46 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
I believe that if the Federal government got out of [healthcare] entirely except to enact meaningful tort reform--not elminate redress for gross negligence, but protect doctors and medical providers from opportunistic suits or suits when something goes wrong that simply could not be reasonably foreseen or prevented. . . . .


Foxfyre's statement demonstrates 1) that she doesn't know the first thing about civil litigation, or 2) that she is intentionally spreading false information.

A civil plaintiff cannot invoke the jurisdiction of a civil court unless the plaintiff states a claim upon which relief may be based. The four essential elements necessary to state a claim for negligence are:

1) Duty,
2) Breach of Duty,
3) Causation, and
4) Damages.

A duty arises out of the relationship between parties. A medical provider has a duty to a patient to provide competent care according to generally accepted standards of care. The element of duty does not require a provider to prevent injury, only to use reasonable care to avoid a reasonably foreseeable injury. There is no duty to protect others from UNFORESEEABLE harm.

When Foxfyre paints a picture of an abused medical provider who is being sued by a scum-sucking opportunist for an injury that the poor, poor, poor medical provider could not reasonably foresee or avoid as her argument for tort reform---she is painting a FALSE portrait. Under the circumstances Foxfyre describes, the plaintiff clearly fails to state a claim upon which relief may be granted and the court would dismiss the action as a matter of law.

In other words, our existing law sufficiently weeds out frivolous lawsuits. With respect to medical malpractice lawsuits, most states have already enacted stringent "gatekeeping" procedures that require plaintiffs to jump through additional hoops before the case may proceed. Further government protection of a special class of tortfeasors at the expense of injured plaintiffs will not bring down the costs of healthcare. Despite two solid decades of tort reform that has given special protection to medical providers and their insurers from liability for the harm they cause, the costs of healthcare have increased four times more than the average citizen's earnings.

Foxfyre's claim that tort reform is the pancea for rising healthcare costs is simply false. The paramount agenda of special interest groups (e.g., insurance industry) is to thrust the tort reform stake into the heart of America for the purpose of shielding tortfeasors from being held monetarily liable for the harm they inflict upon their victims. They don't give a damn about the mangled bodies and lives that they leave strewn in the pits of despair so long as they can fill their vaults with gold. Foxfyre and other conservative pit bulls wag their tails, guard the vault doors of their corporate keepers, and sink their demonizing teeth into those who call for social justice.

Quote:
It simply relieves if the Federal government got out of it entirely except to enact legislation relaxing unnecessary regulation and enabling more creative and economical ways for insurance companies to insure people. . . .


We've already employed your plan to relax "unnecessary" regulation to the detriment of this country. Deregulation of the insurance industry will simply allow the insurance industry to screw the people the same way deregulation of the banking industry allowed the banking industry to screw the people. In the absence of regulation (which is indeed NECESSARY), industry moguls simply walk away from the disasters they create with their vaults filled with gold while everyone else suffers from the consequences.

Quote:
if the Federal government got out of it entirely except maybe administer and offer a catastrophic illness insurance pool similar to Federal flood insurance which would relieve the insurance companies of much risk and allow them to lower premiums significantly. . . . .


Foxfyre wants the insurance industry to skim the cream off the top, reap enormous profits, and leave the rest as a burden on government. The guy with the pre-existing medical condition--let the government insure him. The family wage-earner who suffers a catastrophic illness--let the insurance company drop his coverage and make him rely on welfare and state medicaid.

Foxfyre's plan gets better and better for the insurance industry.


Quote:
if the Federal government would allow bigger deductibles before the insurance policies kicked in--we all manage to find the money to have our automobiles serviced and repaired and pay our cell phone fees, etc. Most can surely pay out of pocket the doctors' call for their kid's earache or their annual flu shot and save the insurance for the big expensive stuff they can't afford out of pocket. . . . .


Foxfyre is disingenuous when she equates deductibles and co-pay requirements with the cost of a doctor visit or a monthly phone bill. It is precisely the INABILITY of families to meet the bigger and bigger deductibles and co-pay requirements that forces them into bankruptcy.


Foxfyre wrote:
If the Federal government would do just that and then get out of the way and allow the free market to work, we would see our healthcare costs come down significantly and stabilize without losing any of the qualities about it that we like.


Joe Wilson: YOU LIE.

Foxfyre's plan funnels billions of dollars every month into the vaults of insurance companies; relieves insurance companies of liability for paying out any of those dollars in claims; and shifts responsibility for those who are injured or sick onto the government.
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 04:45 pm
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

Quote:
Seeing as no element of the current plans call for rationing or lowering Medicare benefits, I'm going to go ahead and call this Bullshit fearmongering.


Not if you do the simple math.
Obama says he is going to cut $500 million from Medicare, by simply eliminating fraud and waste.
What I want to know is why doesnt he do that now, instead of waiting for healthcare reform?

And if he does eliminate that much money, and adds as many people as different reports suggest, there is no possible way to keep the benefits the same or to not reduce benefits.
Its not physically possible.


From the following link from the AP, which is a fact check on what Obama's been saying...

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5g5ewCvsGcSPBeHJurb6qYZLVU8OgD9AKAF902

OBAMA: "Don't pay attention to those scary stories about how your benefits will be cut. ... That will never happen on my watch. I will protect Medicare."
THE FACTS: Obama and congressional Democrats want to pay for their health care plans in part by reducing Medicare payments to providers by more than $500 billion over 10 years. The cuts would largely hit hospitals and Medicare Advantage, the part of the Medicare program operated through private insurance companies.
Although wasteful spending in Medicare is widely acknowledged, many experts believe some seniors almost certainly would see reduced benefits from the cuts. That's particularly true for the 25 percent of Medicare users covered through Medicare Advantage.

Supporters contend that providers could absorb the cuts by improving how they operate and wouldn't have to reduce benefits or pass along costs. But there's certainly no guarantee they wouldn't.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 04:49 pm
@kickycan,
Quote:

Although wasteful spending in Medicare is widely acknowledged, many experts believe some seniors almost certainly would see reduced benefits from the cuts. That's particularly true for the 25 percent of Medicare users covered through Medicare Advantage.


I'd be interested to know which experts the author is referring to. If it's 'experts' at Cato and Heritage, I'm not exactly worried about their analysis.

Cycloptichorn
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 04:53 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
If you follow the Kickster's link, you'll see that most of the numbers are referenced back to the Congressional Budget Office.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 04:54 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

If you follow the Kickster's link, you'll see that most of the numbers are referenced back to the Congressional Budget Office.


I did; but that section does not reference the CBO, and to the best of my knowledge, the CBO did not act as the 'expert' in this part of the passage; that's why I queried the source.

Cycloptichorn
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 05:47 pm
@Debra Law,
Debra Law wrote:
Foxfyre's statement demonstrates 1) that she doesn't know the first thing about civil litigation, or 2) that she is intentionally spreading false information.

Can't it be both?
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 05:55 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
The model you champion, Cycloptichorn has found failure historically and contemporarily all over the world.

Name one place in the world your model has found success. Then specify your model to make sure it matches what you claim has found success.

The problems the USA is currently experiencing are caused by those like you who think your model can be successful.
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 06:19 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

The model you champion, Cycloptichorn has found failure historically and contemporarily all over the world.

Name one place in the world your model has found success. Then specify your model to make sure it matches what you claim has found success.

The problems the USA is currently experiencing are caused by those like you who think your model can be successful.


Specifically, I champion single-payer health care. It has found great success in Canada - and right here at home, in the form of Medicare.

Read for yourself -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-payer_health_care

You are incorrect to state that the problems with US health care are due to those who think single-payer would be successful; that has nothing to do with our current problems whatsoever.

You didn't mention the name of your health insurance provider, who hasn't raised rates in 4 years. Can you do so?

---

The idea that health care is a market commodity, is the idea that human life is a market commodity. I find this viewpoint to be barbaric in the extreme.

Cycloptichorn
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Sep, 2009 06:54 pm
@Cycloptichorn,
Canada's single-payer system has been described by its current management as failing due to excessive costs to the Canadian government and excessive delays for patients to obtain many medical treatments. A great many Canadians come to the USA for their medical treatment in order to avoid the Canadian system.

My medical insurance coverage is part of my private employer's retirement plan. Fortunately for me and their other retired employees, my employer is still able to run profitably and meet its retired employee benefit commitments. If Obama's plans are implemented, it won't just be me who suffers from the consequences.

The problems with US health care are due to those same persons who think single-payer would be successful. They are the same persons who have had much to do with our current economic problems. It is these people who frustrated Bush's efforts to correct the Fannie and Freddie inadequately secured loan problems, convinced Bush to sign TARP, and passed and signed the Stimulus Plan. All of these actions contributed to private company cutbacks or failures, and our consequent growing unemployment problems, that in turn reduce people's medical insurance coverage.
0 Replies
 
mysteryman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 02:02 am
What I still dont understand is why so many of you seem to want to rely on the govt.
What ever happened to paying for it yourself?
I DONT have health insurance, and I oppose reforming the system.

I pay my own bills, and when I pay cash I usually get a discount.
My wife just got a mammogram, and it only cost us $75, because we paid cash instead of relying on her insurance to pay for it.
Granted, we had to go to a Dr 50 miles away, but we still saved quite a bit of money by shopping around.
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 06:53 am
@mysteryman,
mysteryman wrote:

What I still dont understand is why so many of you seem to want to rely on the govt.
What ever happened to paying for it yourself?
I DONT have health insurance, and I oppose reforming the system.

I pay my own bills, and when I pay cash I usually get a discount.
My wife just got a mammogram, and it only cost us $75, because we paid cash instead of relying on her insurance to pay for it.
Granted, we had to go to a Dr 50 miles away, but we still saved quite a bit of money by shopping around.


That's great for you, mysteryman. But the reality is that medical expenses are the number one reason for bankruptcy and that includes people who have insurance. As for relying on government vs. paying for it myself -- I'm paying for it either way. The problem is, right now I'm paying and there is no guarantee that I will get anything for that money.
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Fri 11 Sep, 2009 07:37 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I'm not sure that I understand the question. Insurance companies have to charge enough to cover the amount of risk they are assuming plus their overhead, expansion, and a reasonable profit or they go broke. When government enforces caps on reimbursements for Medicare and Medicaid costs, and the difference is then shifted to other patients, the private insurance companies' risk increases proportionately with those higher costs passed on to the people they insure.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that insurance companies also have caps on reimbursements and negotiate rates that are often less than half of what is billed. So again to Rockhead's question, why do those of us without health insurance have to pay full (and probably inflated) price? Are the uninsured subsidizing the insured?

Quote:
...but sooner or later the taxpayer pays the bill one way or another.

Indeed. Personally, if I'm paying for it anyway, I'd like to make sure it is always available to everyone.
 

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