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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 05:10 pm
@Rockhead,
What in the hell is truthiness? I've never used that word. Ever. This is first time I have ever typed it.

Perhaps you could start there to re-evaluate yourself and the many ways you are probably wrong about me, about others, about what MACs do and do not believe.
Rockhead
 
  4  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 05:19 pm
@Foxfyre,
perhaps.

where are these other MACs you speak of?

I've not seen but you and Ican here answering for them.

are there more among us silently supporting you?

(if you say Okie I'm done)
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 05:23 pm
@Rockhead,
You're done, because okie is one of em! LOL He rounds out the three musketeers. I do not believe another human in the US calls themselves a MAC.
0 Replies
 
DontTreadOnMe
 
  4  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 05:27 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

DontTreadOnMe wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

Unlike those on the Left, I don't automatically assume that any site, no matter how partisan, is automatically wrong or right. ...


no, you automatically assume based on who they have as patrons.

know what babe, it doesn't bother me that you are dyed in the wool. so was me sainted mother. Wink

but you keep trying say you aren't.


Oh sure. Like you aren't too.



heh.. well i admit i'm very dyed in the wool in my dtom-ness, for better or worse. but i reserve the right to change my mind based on new info.

but dyed in the wool liberal? there are a few even here on a2k that would find that pretty funny. in real life you would find more than a few. there are things that fall into a "liberal" pov that i support, like abortion rights, gay marriage, death with dignity, legalizing pot and a meaningful reform of the how we deal with health care in america.

but, contrary to the names that i've been called, i have zero interest in turning america into a marxist playground. i believe capitalism is good; just that unbridled greed and unregulated "get all ya can & screw the other guy" ethics are not so good. i hate it that over the last 9 years putting everything on the credit cards has made us china's bitch.

i will admit that i have taken a step or 2 farther to the left over the last year or so. but if i have, the republican's constant pandering to the religious right and the grover norquists scare the crap out of me. not literally, but the enemy of my enemy is my friend. and so the world goes.

you, foxy don't scare me. but people showing up at presidential speeches and churches with guns? and people that think that is covered by 2nd amendment militia rights? jeezuz. i've seen people get shot and i've been shot at. that stuff does not belong at those types of events. trust me, it's no fun watching someone die a violent death.

it should worry you too, because if they will do it with you, they will do it to you.
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 05:45 pm
@DontTreadOnMe,
First, I did not call you a dyed-in-the-wood liberal. You read that into what I did say as you incorrectly read a lot into what I say. No worries though. I love you anyway.

Do you want 'your side' judged by the extremists in your midst? Does a Louisiana congressman indicted for felonious bribery and graft or a whole slug of Democrats convicted in public opinion for gross tax evasion infect your entire party? An entire ideology? Are nutcases like those who deface churches or throw red paint on women wearing fur coats or spike trees with the intent of injuring or maiming loggers or avowed socialists and communists representative of everything you stand for?

Or are they extremists and not in the mainstream?

To judge a large segment--by some counts more than half of all Americans--who describe themselves as GOP or conservative or right of center by the irresponsible or unsupportable actions of a few is just as wrongly judgmental and stupid as it would be for me to judge you by those who vote like you do but who do stupid and indefensible things.

And I try my damndest not to judge any individual nor a whole people based on what a few say or do. Right or wrong, I do tend to judge whole groups on what most say or do. And I do tend to judge an individual person by what I perceive that he or she says and does.

But there are certain characteristics and beliefs that are shared by most or all who describe themselves as 'liberal' or 'left of center' and there are certain characteristics and beliefs that are shared by most or all who describe themselves as 'conservative' or 'right of center'.

I prefer to focus on ideas and practical solutions, policy, and principles and not condemnation of people, especially people here in A2K. I think there are some here who are so fuzzy on why they believe what they believe that all they have to talk about is to try to embarrass or condemn or accuse or blame others. That kind of arrogance (and sometimes stupidity) is a total turn off for me and I do not enjoy engaging in it.

I hold a conviction that the primarily conservative point of view is the more sustainable and provides the best hope for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness than does the primarily liberal point of view.

It is that which I hope at least some will continue to debate and discuss on this thread despite all the roadblocks some continue to try to throw in the way of that.

cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 05:47 pm
@Foxfyre,
No need to name democrats in the criminal, sleezy, category, because there are plenty of republicans who have been charged with sex with children, cheating, taking bribes, and other crimes.

You can start here: http://www.armchairsubversive.org/
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  1  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 07:12 pm
Quote:
Dr. Atul Gawande: University of Chicago Medical School Commencement Address
(June 12, 2009)

Thank you to the students and to the Dean for inviting me here to participate in your graduation. It is an honor.

I want to tell you the story of a friend I lost to lung cancer this year. Jerry Sternin was a professor of nutrition at Tufts University, and with his wife, Monique, he’d spent much of his career trying to reduce hunger and starvation in the world. He was for awhile the director of a Save the Children program to reduce malnutrition in poor Vietnamese villages. The usual methods involved bringing in outside experts to analyze the situation followed by food and agriculture techniques from elsewhere.

The program, however, had itself become starved"of money. It couldn’t afford the usual approach. The Sternins had to find different solutions with the resources at hand.

So this is what they decided to do. They went to villages in trouble and got the villagers to help them identify who among them had the best-nourished children"who among them had demonstrated what Jerry Sternin termed a “positive deviance” from the norm. The villagers then visited those mothers at home to see exactly what they were doing.

Just that was revolutionary. The villagers discovered that there were well-nourished children among them, despite the poverty, and that those children’s mothers were breaking with the locally accepted wisdom in all sorts of ways"feeding their children even when they had diarrhea; giving them several small feedings each day rather than one or two big ones; adding sweet-potato greens to the children’s rice despite its being considered a low-class food. The ideas spread and took hold. The program measured the results and posted them in the villages for all to see. In two years, malnutrition dropped sixty-five to eighty-five per cent in every village the Sternins had been to. Their program proved in fact more effective than outside experts were.

I tell you this story because we are now that village. Our country is in trouble. We are in the midst of an economic meltdown like nothing we’ve seen in more than half a century. The unemployment rate has passed nine per cent. For young people ages twenty-five to thirty-four, the rate is approaching eleven per cent. Our auto industry has filed for bankruptcy. Our housing and finance industries are shadows of their former selves. Our state and local governments are laying off teachers and municipal workers.

It is worth reflecting on how extraordinarily lucky we who are doctors, or doctors-to-momentarily-be, are. Consider the contrast between what every other graduation ceremony taking place today must feel like"the graduation ceremonies for the undergraduates, the business-school students, the law-school students, the architects, the teachers"and what ours does. There are thousands graduating proudly today but fearing for their future. Many have no jobs, no sense of how they’ll make it.

We doctors meanwhile remain with no significant unemployment. Virtually all of us can find gratifying and well-compensated work in our chosen fields, and that is remarkable. It is something to be deeply thankful for.

Yet the idea that we can proceed oblivious to the economic conditions around us is folly. In fact, it is not just folly. It is dangerous.

Job losses and cutbacks have produced an unprecedented increase in the uninsured. Half of hospitals were already operating at a loss before the economy tanked, and the rise in patients who cannot pay their medical bills have since pushed many into insolvency. Hospital closures and layoffs have started, as you know all too well in Chicago. We will be affected by what is going on in our country.

More than that, though, we in medicine have partly contributed to these troubles. Our country’s health care is by far the most expensive in the world. It now consumes more than one of every six dollars we earn. The financial burden has damaged the global competitiveness of American businesses and bankrupted millions of families, even those with insurance. It’s also devouring our government at every level"squeezing out investments in education, our infrastructure, energy development, our future.

As President Obama recently said, “The greatest threat to America’s fiscal health is not Social Security, though that’s a significant challenge. It’s not the investments that we’ve made to rescue our economy during this crisis. By a wide margin, the biggest threat to our nation’s balance sheet is the skyrocketing cost of health care. It’s not even close.”

Like the malnourished villagers, we are in trouble. But the public doesn’t know what do about it. The government doesn’t know. The insurance companies don’t know.

They brought in experts who explained that a quarter of our higher costs are from having higher insurance administration costs than other countries and higher physician and nurse pay, too. The vast majority of extra spending, however, is for the tests, procedures, specialist visits, and treatments we order for our patients. More than anything, the evidence shows, we simply do more expensive stuff for patients than any other country in the world.

So the country is now coming to us who do this work in medicine. And they are asking us, how do they get these costs under control? What can they do to change things for the better?

It is tempting to shrug our shoulders. It is tempting to say, This is just the way good medicine is. But we’d be ignoring the evidence otherwise. For health care is not practiced the same way across the country. Annual Medicare spending varies by more than double, for instance"from less than $6,000 per person in some cities to more than $12,000 per person in others. I visited a place recently where Medicare spends more on health care than the average person earns.

You would expect some variation based on labor and living costs and the health of the population. But as you look between cities of similar circumstances"between places like McAllen and El Paso, Texas, just a few hundred miles apart"you will still find up to two-fold cost differences. A recent study of New York and Los Angeles hospitals found that even within cities, Medicare’s costs for patients of identical life expectancy differ by as much as double, depending on which hospital and physicians they go to.

Yet studies find that in high-cost places"where doctors order more frequent tests and procedures, more specialist visits, more hospital admissions than the average"the patients do no better, whether measured in terms of survival, ability to function, or satisfaction with care. If anything, they seemed to do worse.

Nothing in medicine is without risks, it turns out. Complications can arise from hospital stays, drugs, procedures, and tests, and when they are of marginal value, the harm can outweigh the benefit. To make matters worse, high-cost communities appear to do the low-cost, low-profit stuff"like providing preventive-care measures, hospice for the dying, and ready access to a primary-care doctor"less consistently for their patients. The patients get more stuff, but not necessarily more of what they need.

Fixing this problem can feel dishearteningly complex. Across the country, we have to change skewed incentives that reward quantity over quality, and that reward narrowly specialized individuals, instead of teams that make sure nothing falls between the cracks for patients and resources are not misused. President Obama, I’m pleased to say, committed to making this possible in his reform plan to provide coverage for everyone. But how do we do it?

Well, let us think about this problem the way Jerry Sternin thought about that starving village in Vietnam. Let us look for the positive deviants.

This is an approach we’re actually familiar with in medicine. In surgery, for instance, I know that I have more I can learn in mastering the operations I do. So what does a surgeon like me do? We look to those who are unusually successful"the positive deviants. We watch them operate and learn their tricks, the moves they make that we can take home.

Likewise, when it comes to medical costs and quality, we should look to our positive deviants. They are the low-cost, high-quality institutions like the Mayo Clinic; the Geisinger Health System in rural Pennsylvania; Intermountain Health Care in Salt Lake City. They are in low-cost, high-quality cities like Seattle, Washington; Durham, North Carolina; and Grand Junction, Colorado. Indeed, you can find positive deviants in pockets of most medical communities that are right now delivering higher value health care than everyone else.

We know too little about these positive deviants. We need an entire nationwide project to understand how they do what they do"how they make it possible to withstand incentives to either overtreat or undertreat"and spread those lessons elsewhere.

I have visited some of these places and met some of these doctors. And one of their lessons is that, although the solutions to our health-cost problems are hard, there are solutions. They lie in producing creative ways to insure we serve our patients more than our revenues. And it seems that we in medicine are the ones who have to make this happen.

Here are some specifics I have observed. First, the positive deviants have found ways to resist the tendency built into every financial incentive in our system to see patients as a revenue stream. These are not the doctors who instruct their secretary to have patients calling with follow-up questions schedule an office visit because insurers don’t pay for phone calls. These are not the doctors who direct patients to their side-business doing Botox injections for cash or to the imaging center that they own. They do not focus, the way business people do, on maximizing their high-margin work and minimizing their low-margin work.

Yet the positive deviants do not seem to ignore the money, either. Many physicians do, and I think I am one of them. We try to remain oblivious to the thousands of dollars flowing through our prescription pens. There’s nothing especially awful about that. We keep up with the latest technologies and medications in our specialty. We see our patients. We make our recommendations. We send out our bills. And, as long as the numbers come out all right at the end of each month, we put the money out of our minds. But we do not work to insure we and our local medical community are not overtreating or undertreating. We may be fine doctors. But we are not the positive deviants. `

Instead, the positive deviants are the ones who pursue this work. And they seem to do so in small ways and large. They join with their colleagues to install electronic health records, and look for ways to provide easier phone and e-mail access, or offer expanded hours. They hire an extra nurse to monitor diabetic patients more closely, and to make sure that patients don’t miss their mammograms and pap smears or their cancer follow-up. They think about how to create the local structures and incentives to make better, safer, more appropriate care possible.

I recently heard from one such positive deviant. He is a physician here in Chicago. He’d invested in an imaging center with his colleagues. But they found they were losing money. They had a meeting about what to do just a few weeks ago. The answer, they realized, was to order more imaging for their patients"to push the indications where they could. When he realized what he was being drawn to do by the structure he was in, he pulled out. He lost money. He angered his partners. But it was the right thing to do.

I met another positive deviant, a thoracic surgeon named Dr. Mathew Ninan, who joined a group of pulmonologists, surgeons, and oncologists in Memphis to change the quality of care for lung-cancer patients in their city. “Our approach is simple,” he told me. “We will see every patient regardless of insurance status. We will make every attempt to see patients jointly in one visit. We will discuss every new patient that we see in a multi-disciplinary format on the same day and decide on a plan of treatment. We will follow every patient to track whether they receive the right treatment. And we will enroll as many patients as we can in clinical trials dedicated to improving lung-cancer care.”

To insure that unnecessary costs are avoided, they took yet further steps. The toughest was that the surgeons agreed to do no operations on lung-cancer patients unless the pulmonologist and oncologist agree that it is indicated. This is radical. “I have had to swallow my ego repeatedly to stick to this principle,” he said. Sometimes he’s had to persuade them an operation was best. More often, however, they persuade him to drop his plan and with it the revenue. And he did"because it was the right thing to do.

No one talks to you about money in medical school, or how decisions are really made. That may be because we’ve not thought carefully about what we really believe about money and how decisions should be made. But as you look across the spectrum of health care in the United States"across the almost threefold difference in the costs of care"you come to realize that we are witnessing a battle for the soul of American medicine. And as you become doctors today, I want you to know that you are our hope for how this battle will play out.

As you head into training and then further onward into practice, you will be allowed into people’s lives in a way that no one else in society is permitted. You will see amazing things. And you will develop extraordinary abilities.

Along the way, you will sometimes feel worn down and your cynicism taking over. But resist. Look for those in your community who are making health care better, safer, and less costly. Pay attention to them. Learn how they do it. And join with them.

If you serve the needs of your patients, if you work to ensure that both overtreatment and undertreatment are avoided, you will save your patients. You will also save our country. You are our hope. We thank you.
0 Replies
 
joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 07:29 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Rockhead calls me names. Ehbeth writes me off because I dare to even mildly challenge her opinion about Factcheck.org. Walter becomes sarcastic. I can imagine what the numbnuts I have on ignore are saying.

http://techmole.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/crying-baby-party-56800676-300x300.jpg
Waaaah! The numbnuts are calling me names and I can't understand irony!
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Mon 7 Sep, 2009 09:06 pm
@joefromchicago,
I think Foxie is not capable of understanding irony, ad homs, insults, contradictions, logic, rational thinking, and political bias. Her definitions are usually screwy too!

she's also good at playing the helpless victim.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 06:46 am
@joefromchicago,
Yeah, I should have added to my little litany that at least one person would completely miss the point being made and would accuse me of whining or complaining about being 'attacked' or whatever, followed by the usual glad hands and high fives from various numbnuts who also don't have a clue what the subject even is, much less a reasoned response to it.

I would have so enjoyed being right about that too.
FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 06:56 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

ehBeth wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
offering their point of view


ok, you're done


Well okay. You tell me why you consider Factcheck.org to be virtuous, above reproach, 100% honest, and absolutely accurate in everything they post on the internet? Tell me how they are completely unaffected or swayed by ideology or personal points of view. Are they the only site on the internet that is so high on the trust meter or would you consider the Heritage Foundation or Cato or some other factchecking type groups to be equally trustworthy even though they at times disagree with Factcheck.org? Why or why not?

Take your time. I don't mind waiting while you put together what will certainly be a commendable defense of Factcheck.org.

Before you start you might want to spend some time here:
http://www.cprights.org/2009/05/who-fact-checks-factcheckorg.php

Brilliant. In order to prove that Factcheck.org is not a neutral source, Foxy uses... a partisan source (Conservatives for Paitents' Rights) that has a very clear agenda. Does the irony not strike you, Foxfyre? We've had a discussion before about the so called "Annenberg connection". Perhaps I should go dig it up. It's almost as if you are justifying the fact that you get almost all of your information from partisan sources by asserting that there are no neutral ones. But facts are facts. If you don't like Factcheck's analysis, you can challenge it by bringing facts that they missed, can you not?
JPB
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 06:58 am
@DontTreadOnMe,
ok, dtom --- I'm in. Let's create a new name for ourselves and start talking in code and use our new name as if it represented something real rather than a delusional new army.

I know, I know!!!! Let's be the Unaffiliated Independent Americans --- no... too many vowels. I'm open for suggestions.
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 07:06 am
@FreeDuck,
Yes I use a lot of biased and occasionally partisan sources just like everybody else does, but I do try to choose those that I think have done their homework. Again, it is impossible to be non-biased and hold any convictions about anything.

The brightest among us will understand and appreciate that many of us do not hold the convictions we hold because we are biased or partisan. We are biased or partisan because of the convictions that we hold. The numbnuts will be incapable of comprehending that.

And again, I expect to be able to defend the convictions I hold, while I think those who only spout the partisan talking points and assigned rhetoric cannot do that but divert by turning on the messenger, referencing past sins of other people, misusing history, or dodge actually discussing the issue at hand some other way.

My only quarrel with ehbeth and Factcheck, which I use a LOT, is that she seemed to not be willing to accept that even they can be capable of incorporating bias into their conclusions or that they might have a vested interest in promoting the agenda of one of their own who just happens to be our President.

FreeDuck
 
  3  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 07:15 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

My only quarrel with ehbeth and Factcheck, which I use a LOT, is that she seemed to not be willing to accept that even they can be capable of incorporating bias into their conclusions or that they might have a vested interest in promoting the agenda of one of their own who just happens to be our President.

What does "one of their own" mean with respect to Factcheck?

While I certainly agree that human bias is impossible to completely eradicate, any analysis based on facts can be challenged with same. Better, IMO, to use a source that at least respects facts and attempts to be independent than one with a clearly stated agenda -- like Conservatives for Patients' Rights.
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 07:15 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

ok, dtom --- I'm in. Let's create a new name for ourselves and start talking in code and use our new name as if it represented something real rather than a delusional new army.

I know, I know!!!! Let's be the Unaffiliated Independent Americans --- no... too many vowels. I'm open for suggestions.


Actually I think that's a great idea. "Independent" is too wide a range to be an ideology. So if you think you aren't a MAC, (i.e. mostly classical liberal which is a term that has been around a long long time but is poorly understood by most and too easily misunderstood by those unfamiliar with it) and you think you aren't a modern liberal, then come up with a term you like and apply your definition to it.

I assume that you thing 'Modern American Conservative" is not an appropriate designation, but it does differentiate from the 'neocons'--that's a relatively new term--or the old style conservatives defined as the 'right wing' in other places.

Only the numbnuts are unable to break the 'code' which is actually pretty plain and simple English spelling out our shared beliefs quite clearly. I'm giving you credit for being smarter than that.

For instance, let's take just one issue.

MACs so far all favor a much smaller, less costly, more efficient, more effective, more honest, less corruptible Federal government.

The modern liberals on this thread are all cheering on the President and Congress in their effort to greatly increase the size, scope, and cost of government.

So where do you and your group, whatever you choose to call it, stand on that, and why?
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 07:15 am
@Foxfyre,
Quote:
My only quarrel with ehbeth and Factcheck, which I use a LOT, is that she seemed to not be willing to accept that even they can be capable of incorporating bias into their conclusions or that they might have a vested interest in promoting the agenda of one of their own who just happens to be our President.


And apparently Fox seems to be unwilling to accept that she incorporates bias into her conclusions about factcheck.
0 Replies
 
FreeDuck
 
  2  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 07:26 am
@JPB,
JPB wrote:

ok, dtom --- I'm in. Let's create a new name for ourselves and start talking in code and use our new name as if it represented something real rather than a delusional new army.

I know, I know!!!! Let's be the Unaffiliated Independent Americans --- no... too many vowels. I'm open for suggestions.

Solutiontarians.
Foxfyre
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 07:35 am
@FreeDuck,
FreeDuck wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:

My only quarrel with ehbeth and Factcheck, which I use a LOT, is that she seemed to not be willing to accept that even they can be capable of incorporating bias into their conclusions or that they might have a vested interest in promoting the agenda of one of their own who just happens to be our President.

What does "one of their own" mean with respect to Factcheck?

While I certainly agree that human bias is impossible to completely eradicate, any analysis based on facts can be challenged with same. Better, IMO, to use a source that at least respects facts and attempts to be independent than one with a clearly stated agenda -- like Conservatives for Patients' Rights.


Obama was closely associated with and worked for the Chicago Annenberg Challenge and also was involved in funneling a LOT of morny to ACORN through Annenberg connections. Factcheck.org is one of the arms of the Annenberg group, one that has vigorously defended ACORN, and it is reasonable to expect that all this would also color their conclusions re President Obama and his agenda. At least there is enough blurring of the lines there to make it prudent to fact check Factcheck.org before swallowing their conclusions hook, line, and sinker. Basically it is a good site, however, and I visit it often and quote from it often.

I don't object to anybody using anything to reinforce their opinion, but if there is evidence that the source is intentionally partisan, biased, or prejudiced and is simply expressing a hateful and unsupportable opinion, the source is useless for valid information. I would consider a site of "Americans against Barack Obama" or "Impeach Obama Now" to be far more suspect than say Cato or Heritage who have good track records of non partisanship on the research they do and the conclusions the publish, but the partisan sites won't get everything wrong either. I consider Huffington Post, Daily Kos, or Salon.com all to be highly partisan and not completely reliable, yet I have posted information from all three sites.

Personally, I think a completely independent source is very hard to find these days, and it is dangerous to assume that sources that claim to be independent and unbiased actually are independent and unbiased. You have to judge them all on their track records for fairness and accuracy.

So despite that "Conservatives for Patients' Rights" hold an opinions you don't share, and have the hated word 'conservative' in their name, what connection do they have that would color their conclusions in a way to make them an unacceptable source? Do you have sources that discredit their conclusions? Do you object to their statements being used as illustrative of what many Americans are thinking and wanting and believing (which I believe is how I used that source--can't remember for sure)?
Foxfyre
 
  0  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 08:03 am
For the record, the President's intended speech to the school kids today as posted is fine. Excellent even. And IF....and that is a big IF.....the teachers haven't been advised behind the scenes of how to discuss it which is valid concern of many parents, there should be no objection to anybody for their kids to see it.

If the President could just once put aside his ego and had not sent out that stupid 'assignment' to schools for the school kids. Had he simply posted the speech that intended to give to the school kids. Had he offered no suggestions to teachers as to how to steer the kids in their thinking. Had he done that there would have been no bruhaha over the speech at all. It would have been well received I think and he would have gained a point or two on the approval meter.

As it is, he insisted on poisoning the well and now many responsible parents are probably unnecessarily wary about it.

I swear, some people just don't learn all that quickly sometimes and our liberal President seems less bright in that department than most.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Tue 8 Sep, 2009 08:07 am
@Foxfyre,
Foxie, You conservatives know how to challenge anything and everything in general terms, but fail the laffer test by not challenging with other evidence what they show to be "biased" and/or wrong.

How are they biased or wrong?

Quit with the childish challenge if you are unable to provide facts that are contrary to whey they claim.
0 Replies
 
 

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