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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 01:51 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Racism can be a form of discrimination but discrimination is not a synonym for racism nor 'reverse-discrimination' and synonmy for 'reverse-racism' as Wikipedia attempted to make it.


This is the main refutation to Cyclops post.

Someone can be a racist and not be in a position to discriminate against anyone.

Someone can discriminate against someone where race has nothing to do with it.

They are not one and the same.

Reverse descrimination is not "Also Known As" Reverse Racism as Cyclops had claimed.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 02:06 pm
@maporsche,
Whatever it's called, racism is racism. Direct or reverse, it's the same thing. All races discriminate; some more than others.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 02:13 pm
@maporsche,
Correct. The only analogy I can come up with that might be interpreted as 'reverse racism' is somebody who refuses to acknowledge a race exists at all. Otherwise whether it is blacks praising or putting down blacks for being black or whites praising or putting down whites for being white or whites or blacks (or any other race or ethnic group) drawing unsupportable positive or negative conclusions about each other based on race, and whether or not such unsupportable conclusions are complimentary or not, we are dealing with racism.

All racism is not malicious or harmful and all racist actions or words are not equal. But racism is racism just the same. Calling racism 'reverse racism' does not change the fact that it is racism in the least.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 02:23 pm
@cicerone imposter,
cicerone imposter wrote:

Whatever it's called, racism is racism. Direct or reverse, it's the same thing. All races discriminate; some more than others.


You don't have to convince me...Cyclops is the one who disagrees.
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 02:54 pm
@maporsche,
I know that! I was only agreeing with you. At least, that's what I thought.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:32 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Racism is discrimination based on race. Collectivism is discrimination based on wealth. Individualism is discrimination based on liberty.
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:37 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:
Individualism is discrimination based on liberty.


Individualism is discrimination...?

WTF are you smoking?

T
K
O
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:39 pm
@ican711nm,
There may or may not be anything to this, but in the department of government intimidation, whether we're dealing with colletivism or individualism, the wary better be paying attention to stuff like this:

Quote:
Health Insurers Fear Probe By House Dems Is Reprisal for Opposing Part of Obama's Plan

Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., sent a letter warning health insurers that the House Energy and Commerce Committee is "examining executive compensation and other business practices of the health industry."
Wednesday, August 19, 2009

In a move some fear is a reprisal for opposing President Obama's health care plan, Democrats sent 52 letters to health insurers requesting financial records for a House committee's investigation.

Reps. Henry Waxman, D-Calif., and Bart Stupak, D-Mich., sent a letter warning health insurers that the House Energy and Commerce Committee is "examining executive compensation and other business practices of the health industry."

Waxman, chairman of the committee, and Stupak, chairman of the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee did not inform their Republican counterparts of their plans.

Health insurers have until Sept. 4 to provide Congress a detailed list of every employee who made over a $1 million dollars a year between 2003 and 2008. Democrats also want documents about conferences and any events held off company property as well as the types of transportation, lodging, food, entertainment and even gifts exchanged.

Raising the intimidation stakes: the Waxman letter offers insurers no explanation of what is being investigated or why.

Industry insiders fear the beginning of reprisals for anyone daring to dissent from the Obama agenda. One said it feels like a reprisal audit by the IRS.

With raucous health care town halls unfolding nationwide during the August congressional recess and polls showing increased opposition to a government-run insurance program or "public option," neither Waxman nor Stupak nor their staffs would comment on this story. But it's no secret that Democrats blame anti-reform ads on the private health insurance industry and its supporters.

Private health insurers warn that a public option could put them at a competitive disadvantage and even out of business, but they insist they support health care reform in general.

A spokesman for Stupak told The Associated Press Tuesday night that 52 letters had been sent to health insurers with $2 billion or more in annual premiums. He said letters were not dispatched to other industry groups, some of which have been airing television advertising in support of Obama's call for legislation.

But Robert Zirkelbach, spokesman for the American Health Insurance Plans, said Democrats on the panel hoped to "silence the health insurance industry and distract attention away from the fact that the American people are rejecting a government-run plan" as part of Obama's planned overhaul.

Zirkelbach said it would be up to individual companies to decide whether to turn the records over.

Spokesmen for three large insurance companies, Aetna, UnitedHealth Group Inc. and WellPoint Inc., confirmed the firms had received the letters but declined comment.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/19/health-insurers-fear-probe-house-dems-reprisal-opposing-obamas-plan/
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:46 pm
@Diest TKO,
Yeah! I, am individualist and want to deny all collectivists the power to deny me my Constitutionally guaranteed liberties. Worse, I don't want to teach any of 'em to fly.
JTT
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 03:57 pm
@ican711nm,
You obviously don't let on to students what a nutcase you are. No one would go with you on a Ferris Wheel.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:03 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre, we are in substantial agreement. I wonder which would be less dificult:
(1) developing a conservative party to our mutual satisfaction; or,
(2) developing the Republican party to our mutual satisfaction.

Neither seems practical to me. I think that based on Obama's unstopped political dance (and I did not mean stance), I think it would be a whole lot easier--but still very difficult--to convince Republican 2010 candidates to run on a platform of impeaching Obama.
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:08 pm
@JTT,
All my flight students think all you collectivista are "nutcases." However, not one of them has agreed to go with me on a Ferris Wheel. I bet that's because I have not invited them to!
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:18 pm
FROM TEA PARTIERS

GET YOUR FLAG READY
Please join us in this FLY THE FLAG campaign and PLEASE forward this email immediately to everyone in your address book asking them to do the same. We have a little less than three week and counting to get the word out all across this great land and into every community in the United States of America.

THE PROGRAM:

On September 11th, 2009 , an American flag should be displayed outside every home, apartment, office, and store in the United States. Every individual should make it their duty to display an American flag on this anniversary of one of our country's worst tragedies. We do this in honor of those who lost their lives on 9/11, their families, friends and loved ones who continue to endure the pain, and those who today are fighting at home and abroad to preserve our cherished freedoms.

In the days, weeks and months following 9/11, our country was bathed in American flags as citizens mourned the incredible losses and stood shoulder-to-shoulder against terrorism. Sadly, those flags have all but disappeared. Our patriotism pulled us through some tough times and it shouldn't take another attack to galvanize us in solidarity. Our American flag is the fabric of our country and together we can prevail over terrorism of all kinds.

ACTION PLAN:

(1) Forward this email to everyone you know (at least 11 people). Please don't be the one to break this chain. Take a moment to think back to how you felt on 9/11 and let those sentiments guide you.

(2) Fly an American flag of any size on 9/11. Honestly, Americans should fly the flag year-round, but if you don't, then at least make it a priority on this day.

Thank you for your participation. God Bless You and God Bless America!

Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:22 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

Foxfyre, we are in substantial agreement. I wonder which would be less dificult:
(1) developing a conservative party to our mutual satisfaction; or,
(2) developing the Republican party to our mutual satisfaction.

Neither seems practical to me. I think that based on Obama's unstopped political dance (and I did not mean stance), I think it would be a whole lot easier--but still very difficult--to convince Republican 2010 candidates to run on a platform of impeaching Obama.


The Republican Party already has the infrastructure in place so that part would be much easier than starting over from scratch with a new party.

But the Republican Party also has a lot of baggage that it has no way to dump, and has proved to be unreliable in sticking with its stated convictions in the past. Considering how intractable, unrelenting, and irrational some are just posting on this thread, and no manner or quantity of evidence can sway their fixed opinions in the least, I think retraining people to think and behave in a different way is far more difficult than starting out the right way to begin with. (pun and double entrende intended.) So a new party might be much easier in that way.

As for any attempt to impeach President Obama, we have disagreed on that. You think it would be the solution. I think it would be political suicide for the GOP and we shouldn't even be talking about that. We should rather focus on being persistent, accurate, and unrelenting in our goals of restoring our government to Constitutional principles.






ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:45 pm
@Foxfyre,
I think Glen Beck agrees with you!
Glen Beck in his book, Common Sense, page 90, wrote:
Make no mistake, a revolution is required to restore America, but it's a revolution that can be fought with the weapons of democracy. This is not a call to arms or violence--it is a call to once again tether ourselves to our core principles and values. Treachery and treason abound from those who profess allegiance to America. Truth, the "first casualty of war," is in short supply--make it your polestar.

However, I have a question:
How shall we best restore our government to Constitutional principles without first removing the leader of the opponents of those principles?
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 04:54 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

I think Glen Beck agrees with you!
Glen Beck in his book, Common Sense, page 90, wrote:
Make no mistake, a revolution is required to restore America, but it's a revolution that can be fought with the weapons of democracy. This is not a call to arms or violence--it is a call to once again tether ourselves to our core principles and values. Treachery and treason abound from those who profess allegiance to America. Truth, the "first casualty of war," is in short supply--make it your polestar.



You think? I can't tell for sure from this, though I know he is major disallusioned with the Republican party. He tends to be far more pessimistic about the future of America than I am (or Limbaugh, Hannity et al) but he does have a very clear vision about what government and how our leaders should be and how our government and leaders fall short of that. Beck is far more pure libertarian (little 'L') than I am though I am more libertarian than anything else.
ican711nm
 
  0  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 05:04 pm
@Foxfyre,
How shall we best redirect the Republican Party to begin restoring our Constitutional governance?

I think getting them to pledge to impeach and remove Obama if elected is the most practical way. Given the current political climate and its inevitable worsening under Obama's presidency, it is not suicdal at all. It is a single issue sure win!
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 05:10 pm
@ican711nm,
ican711nm wrote:

I think Glen Beck agrees with you!
Glen Beck in his book, Common Sense, page 90, wrote:
Make no mistake, a revolution is required to restore America, but it's a revolution that can be fought with the weapons of democracy. This is not a call to arms or violence--it is a call to once again tether ourselves to our core principles and values. Treachery and treason abound from those who profess allegiance to America. Truth, the "first casualty of war," is in short supply--make it your polestar.

However, I have a question:
How shall we best restore our government to Constitutional principles without first removing the leader of the opponents of those principles?

Wow. Beck is nothing but talk. Nothing to be gained from that passage.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 05:14 pm
@ican711nm,
The only way the GOP will be re-directed is to elect people who emulate by word AND track record the qualities we want in leaders. It will be persuaded by the unrelenting drum beat of reasonableness demanded by the Tea Partiers and Town Hall goers and those who talk to their neighbors, post on blogs, write letters to the editors, and consistently contact their elected leaders.

There are unreputable people who tell others what they want to hear and then do not behave accordingly of course. We elected a President like that I think. But I do believe our elected leaders are capable of reform if they understand that is the ONLY way they will retain their power.

I don't agree with your proposed solution since I don't know a single person, other than you, who thinks that is the way to proceed or who would not be offended by those who attempted such. I myself would be offended by such an attempt. I think any such attempt would trigger a fight that would split the conservative base with the lion's share going to those who do not want impeachment, even as a theory. The base can ill afford to lose those who would vote for impeachment though.

Bottom line, there are many of us who thought the GOP hurt itself impeaching President Clinton for an offense that did not rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors and that did not meet criteria sufficient for conviction. And President Clinton's offenses were documented crimes not sanctioned by Congress--crimes that would hold up in the courts. So far President Obama has committed no documented crimes not sanctioned by Congress or that would be upheld in the courts.

I want my party to be a) the majority and b) the party of integrity, responsibility,competence, inclusiveness, and reasonableness.

But I am open to be persuaded by anybody who can give me a convincing argument.
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Aug, 2009 05:15 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

I don't think so since I don't know a single person, other than you, who thinks that is the way to proceed or who would not be offended by those who attempted such. I myself would be offended by such an attempt. I think any such attempt would trigger a fight that would split the conservative base with the lion's share going to those who do not want impeachment, even as a theory. The base can ill afford to lose those who would vote for impeachment though.

Bottom line, there are many of us who thought the GOP hurt itself impeaching President Clinton for an offense that did not rise to the level of high crimes and misdemeanors and that did not meet criteria sufficient for conviction. And President Clinton's offenses were documented crimes not sanctioned by Congress--crimes that would hold up in the courts. So far President Obama has committed no documented crimes not sanctioned by Congress or that would be upheld in the courts.

I want my party to be a) the majority and b) the party of integrity, responsibility,competence, inclusiveness, and reasonableness.

But I am open to be persuaded by anybody who can give me a convincing argument.


Wow - this is a great post.

Cyclotpichorn
0 Replies
 
 

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