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AMERICAN CONSERVATISM IN 2008 AND BEYOND

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 01:34 pm
@ican711nm,
ican, Nobody can make estimates without understanding what's in the detail. Quit being a puts.
Yankee
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 01:39 pm
@cicerone imposter,
Then how can Obama say his plan will save money?
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 01:50 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:

Well, while I still oppose any attempt to even push a debate toward impeachment of the President--I am convinced it would cause far more harm to the conservative cause than do any good--I am encouraged at the Tea Party spirit and the spreading groundswell of opposition to the intense efforts of the President and Congress to take away more and more of our freedoms, rights, property, choices, opportunities, and ability to determine our own destiny.

This is what we need to encourage and this is where we should be throwing our support:

Quote:
Published Monday July 27, 2009
Nebraska legislators seek to assert state sovereignty
By Martha Stoddard
WORLD-HERALD BUREAU



I am not sure if tea party secession talk should be encouraged. Look at what happened in Virginia recently.

Quote:
GOP Candidate's Remarks Spur Outcry
(By Fredrick Kunkle, The Washington Post, July 17, 2009)

A Virginia Republican's fierce call to resist President Obama's political agenda -- with bullets, if necessary -- ignited an outcry on the Internet yesterday and forced her to clarify that she was not looking to incite violence.

Appearing at a "Tea Party" rally Wednesday to protest Obama's expansion of government, Catherine Crabill, a political neophyte running for the House of Delegates in the Northern Neck, quoted from a March 1775 speech by Patrick Henry and then went further, calling on Americans to resist the course Obama has set for the country.

"We have a chance to fight this battle at the ballot box before we have to resort to the bullet box," Crabill said. "But that's the beauty of our Second Amendment right. I am glad for all of us who enjoy the use of firearms for hunting. But make no mistake. That was not the intent of the Founding Fathers. Our Second Amendment right was to guard against tyranny."

Crabill, a real estate agent and home-schooling mother of four, said yesterday that she would not back down from her defense of the right to use bullets to address government grievances, saying that if fiery words were good enough for Henry, they're good enough for her.

"Those are my convictions," Crabill, 52, said in a telephone interview. "I am a full-blooded, freedom-loving American, and what we're seeing in Washington is domestic terrorism at its worst."

But as the video of her remarks zipped around the Internet, she said she worried that she would be caricatured. And she said she wanted to make clear that she was not advocating armed resistance.

"I have no desire to see this country erupt in any kind of violent revolution," Crabill said. "I don't even own a gun."

Looking around a nation in which some people have been stockpiling weapons since Obama's victory, however, she said she worried where it all might lead. She said her speech was less a call to arms than a call for conservatives to mobilize for coming elections at all levels.

"It scares me what's going on," she said. "And this administration is socializing every area of life." She added: "Socialism is probably being kind: This is a Marxist agenda."

After a video of her remarks was posted on the Internet, some Democrats seized on them to suggest that the Republican Party remains a haven for extremists.

"The Northern Neck is conservative, but not reactionary, and I think people will be appalled," said her opponent, Del. Albert C. Pollard Jr. (D-Northumberland).

Some said her remarks were not surprising, given an April 1995 article by the Washington Times that identified her as a member of a militia known as the New Mexico Citizens Action Association and quoted her as saying that she believed the Oklahoma City bombing had been the work of the federal government.

Pressed about her remarks of nearly 15 years ago, Crabill disputed the exact wording but not the gist of her beliefs.
cicerone imposter
 
  3  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 02:39 pm
@wandeljw,
with so many extremist nuts running around in the conservative party, it's amazing how they are able to survive in this country. They're the most racist, hate mongering party that ever existed in this country in contemporary times.

Many of "them" still don't believe Obama is an American citizen by birth (right).
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 02:49 pm
@wandeljw,
Well you know Wandel, after the ultra leftwing radical Unabomber was arrested, I did not assume that all or even as many as some environmentally conscious people would condone his activities, and I didn't see that as justification to close down all the environmental rights groups across the country.

When a few animal rights nuts saw fit to throw red dye on women wearing fur coats, I didn't assume that they should shut down all humane associations or other animal rights groups.

When the President of the United States said something as stupid as was said in the current Cambridge incident, I don't assume we should be leery of electing people of color or people from Chicago or Democrats to high office.

And I don't think it is what you intended, but to suggest that one anecdotal incident out of millions who participated peacefully, honorably, and without incident in Tea Parties all across the country, for you to post this as any kind of 'evidence' that the Tea Parties should be discontinued would be about as prejudiced, bigoted, irrationally partisan, hypocritical and/or dishonest as it gets.

Trying to brand an entire party or group by the actions of one or a few is nothing new:

Quote:
From 1970
ALONG with all their other woes, the Democrats are suffering from a bad case of me-tooism. Accused of being too permissive toward radicals and, virtually, of advocating violence, many liberal Democrats have not until recently bothered to deny such charges. Polls and other soundings have persuaded them that they must indeed respond, thus putting them in the impossible position of having to outdo Agnew & Co. on law-and-order.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,909613,00.html


And stupid quotes suggesting or advocating violence are nothing new either. Here's a whole string of quotes that the Left didn't think worthy of an entire column or condemnation of an entire group:

“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said. “Because from what I understand folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”--Barack Obama
http://michellemalkin.com/2008/06/14/obama-advocating-concealed-handguns-only-rhetorically/[/quote]

"Democracy don't rule the world, You'd better get that in your head; This world is ruled by violence, But I guess that's better left unsaid."--Bob Dylan

"f there is retributive justice [Sen. Jesse Helms] will get AIDS from a transfusion, or one of his grandchildren will get it."--Nina Totenburg, NPR

USA Today syndicated columnist Julianne Malveaux, on Clarence Thomas:
"I hope his wife feeds him lots of eggs and butter and he dies early like many black men do, of heart disease."

Washington Post syndicated columnist Richard Cohen:
"For hypocrisy, for sheer gall, [Newt] Gingrich should be hanged."

Comedian and (former) talk show host Craig Kilborn [Caption under footage of George W. Bush]: "Snipers Wanted".

Actor Alec Baldwin on Conan O’Brien:
"f we were in other countries, we would all right now, all of us together, all of us together would go down to Washington and we would stone Henry Hyde to death! We would stone him to death! [crowd cheers] Wait! Shut up! Shut up! No shut up! I’m not finished. We would stone Henry Hyde to death and we would go to their homes and we’d kill their wives and their children. We would kill their families."

James Carville on Ken Starr: "He’s one more mistake away from not having any kneecaps."

Syndicated columnist Alexander Cockburn: "There is a sound case to be made for dropping a tactical nuclear weapon on the Cuban section of Miami. The move would be applauded heartily by most Americans. Alas, Operation Good Riddance would require the sort of mature political courage sadly lacking in Washington, D.C., these days."





0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 03:19 pm
@Yankee,
Yankee, That's what he has not made plain. He's failed to articulate the how when he gave his latest speech on health care.

Why do you idiots keep asking me questions when I'm not the person that wrote his script?

I keep saying none of us knows what the final health bill will look like; it's still in the planning stage. Yet, you bone heads keep asking me questions when I'm not the one saying anything about how this health plan will save money or how much it's going to end up costing.

All of you need a bit of common sense and logic lessons.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 04:29 pm
Saw this on TV news earlier. . . .

What do ya'll think. Should the mall be allowed to kick this guy out for selling politically offensive merchandise when others in the mall are allowed to sell other kinds of offensive merchandise?

What if the bumper stickers read "IMPEACH BUSH"?

Would that make a difference?

Quote:
Posted on Monday, July 27, 2009
'Impeach Obama' bumper stickers spark a shopping mall protest

CHARLOTTE, N.C. " While protesters rallied in his support, the owner of a Concord Mills kiosk that sells conservative merchandise said he met with the mall's manager Sunday to see what arrangements can be made for him to remain after his lease expires Friday.

Nothing was agreed to, except that the two would meet again Monday, said Loren Spivack, owner of Free Market Warrior.

Spivack has contended that he's being kicked out of the mall for political reasons. He's traced his exile to a letter to the editor in the Charlotte Observer criticizing his business, saying it promotes “ideas such as racism, sexism and even slavery.”

He said he was at work again Sunday when he got a call from mall manager Ray Soporowski inviting to talk in his office.

“It was a pleasant, amicable conversation, but we didn't come to any resolution about whether our business would be able to stay in the mall,” Spivack said. “He wanted to include some of his company's senior management and we agreed to talk again Monday.”

Mall officials have repeatedly declined to comment. Reached Sunday, Soporowski continued that policy. “With all due respect, that conversation is between Loren and myself,” he said.

Sunday, about 100 people rallied in front of the mall to support Spivack and his right to free speech.

He opened his Free Market Warrior kiosk last spring, selling such items as “Impeach Obama” bumper stickers and baby bibs that say, “My parents chose life. Thanks Mom and Dad!”

Spivack said he's found other stores in the mall selling T shirts and other merchandise with offensive slogans and feels he's being targeted “purely for politic reasons.”

Since the controversy arose, he said his business has picked up.
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/homepage/story/72492.html
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 04:34 pm
@Foxfyre,
Free speech should override anything else except when it creates danger for the general public.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 04:46 pm
@Foxfyre,
Welcome to the Free Market Mr Spivack. Your lease is up. The owner is free to not renew your lease. That is what happens in the Free Market.


I always get a kick out idiots like this. They don't seem to get it.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 04:57 pm
@Foxfyre,
Foxfyre wrote:
Should the mall be allowed ...


any good libertarian will say 'yes'

it's a private business - what place does government (at any level) have in telling the mall owners who can and can't be in their space?

Impeach Bush, Impeach Obama - it's all pretty much of a piece when it comes to the right of an independent business owner.

Since business has picked up, I'm sure the fellow can find someone who'll be delighted to lease him a space - if the issue has to do with what he claims it does.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 04:59 pm
@parados,
And you would say the exact same thing if he was the only one not to have his lease renewed?

If he was handicapped?

If he was black?

If he was selling merchandise criticizing Bush, Cheney, the GOP, conservatives?
parados
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 05:07 pm
@Foxfyre,
Yes, I would. The mall is free to do what it thinks best. They aren't required to renew leases. We don't know any of the other circumstances.

Maybe he hasn't always paid on time
Maybe someone has offered more for the space than he was paying.
Maybe the mall is concerned he is driving customers away.
Maybe the mall is made up of Obama supporters.

It really doesn't matter in the Free Market, does it Fox? The Free Market says the mall doesn't have to renew Spivack's lease. Check out what he named his business Fox. Ironic, isn't it?
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 05:22 pm
@parados,
Here's anther observation with the conservatives on this thread; they claim a) Professor Gates was inciting a riot from his home, and b) they don't challenge what this vendor is doing that welcomes the creation of riots.
0 Replies
 
Diest TKO
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 05:27 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

Foxfyre wrote:
Should the mall be allowed ...


any good libertarian will say 'yes'

it's a private business - what place does government (at any level) have in telling the mall owners who can and can't be in their space?

Impeach Bush, Impeach Obama - it's all pretty much of a piece when it comes to the right of an independent business owner.

Since business has picked up, I'm sure the fellow can find someone who'll be delighted to lease him a space - if the issue has to do with what he claims it does.

ehBeth is right. The mall is a private business. They have the right. I'll agree it's ethically shallow, but it's perfectly legal. This is not a first amendment issue.

I don't care if someone has a "Impeach Obama" bumper sticker. If I saw one on a car on the beltway on the way to work, it would probably give me a good chuckle.

T
K
O
0 Replies
 
ican711nm
 
  1  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 06:41 pm
@cicerone imposter,
CICE, YOUR STATEMENT IS FALSE!
Most people know they make estimates as opposed to provable conclusions, because they know they don't understand all the details. Then they examine as many of the actual details as they think will provide them adequate accuracy--and that they can examine--to make their estimates more accurate. Subsequently, they discover how accurate their estimates were when they actually do or observe what they have estimated.

EXAMPLE:
The customer asks, what's the price of chartering with 4 passengers your Lear Jet for a flight from you home airport to (1) in Texas, to (2) in Washington, to (3) in Florida, to (4) in Texas, and (5) back to your home airport in Texas?

The charter pilot answers, our price is $1500 per flight hour plus expenses. A rough estimate is (1) 0.5hrs x $1500 + (2) 5hrs x $1500 + (3) 8hrs x $1500 + (4) 4hrs x $1500 + (5) 0.5hrs x $1500 = 18hrs x $1500 = $27,000. But, it will probably be more depending on weather, the number of refueling stops, the number of overnight stopovers, and of course, where I pick you up in Texas, and where you are going in (2), (3), and (4). ...
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 07:03 pm
@ican711nm,
ican, Trying to develop estimates for any health plan is a difficult task no matter how much "detail" they may have available. Making estimates of the different aspects of a very complicated plan is okay, but the variables change so often, trying to tie down total cost is an impossible task

Have you ever tried cost accounting for any new product that already has a huge variety of materials and costs already part of the total cost that changes frequently but must be considered? Juggling numbers is fun, but most of the time, government estimates are not very accurate.

What we still haven't seen are the anticipated added cost for providing insurance to everybody, how they plan to pay for it, and how those costs can vary depending on location. The health cost in a poor country town differs a great deal from the cost of health care in an expensive area.

With each change in the plan, the cost can change dramatically.

The issue isn't only how will they pay for the initial cost to get everybody enrolled, and what can we expect for the short-term and long-term cost of a universal health plan, but who is going to pay for what and for how long?

If there are savings to be expected, when and how will that impact savings vs increased costs of materials and service costs.

There is no magic formula to handle the various aspects of any universal health plan. What we haven't seen are what their estimates are for the short-term or long-term impact to all the businesses, insurance companies, health care workers, pharmaceuticals, the companies that develop and make health care instruments and machines, and those too poor to even pay a small portion of their insurance. Is the plan going to cover all illegal immigrants? If so, how much will that cost, and will the American people allow it? There are many politically sensitive issues that must be addressed. We're not even close to any agreement even though they tell us they've accomplished 80% of the work.

It seems the blue democrats are still against the plan; without them, no health care will be approved.
okie
 
  0  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 09:34 pm
Has anyone suggested this, that given the estimated costs of insuring all these people, wouldn't it be alot cheaper just to forget the bureaucracy, do not institute a new bureacracy, but through the income tax filing process, simply give all the people enough money to go buy their own insurance, if they don't have it already, from whatever company they choose? For example, I heard it will cost 30K to insure a family of 4 with Obamacare. My guess is just give the people money to buy their own health insurance, forget the bureaucracy, and it would end up alot cheaper, it would provide more jobs in the private sector, provide better health care, and everyone would be far happier with the result, than Obama care, which will instead divide the country, make everyone mad, more sick, and break the country.

But we don't even need to do that. All we need to do is do tort reform, more HSA's, better tax breaks, reform Medicaid, and a few other things to increase competition, and we can fix this problem. Tie insurance rates to personal health habits, life choices, such as obesity and smoking, give people incentives to straighten out their health, and just like magic, we can and will be healthier.
cicerone imposter
 
  2  
Reply Mon 27 Jul, 2009 09:43 pm
@okie,
okie, Why do you talk about any subject you have very little actual knowledge on? Law suits is a very small percentage of health care costs.

Taken from the web:
Quote:
Myth 1: Medical malpractice litigation’s share of overall health care costs is crippling the system. Fact: Medical malpractice litigation’s share always has been minuscule, has fallen to the lowest level on record - less than 0.18 percent of all health costs. Even if one includes in the calculation the cost of all medical malpractice insurance premiums paid by doctors and hospitals, which premiums cover not only malpractice settlements, verdicts and the cost of litigation, but also insurance companies’ overhead and profits, the share is just 0.58 percent of all health costs.

Myth 2: There is a significant increase in number of malpractice payments being paid. Fact: The number of malpractice payments in 2008 was the lowest since the creation of the federal government’s National Practitioner Data Bank, which has tracked medical malpractice payments since 1990. Last year was the third consecutive year in which the number of medical malpractice payments sunk to an all‐time low.

Myth 3: The cumulative value of malpractice payments is skyrocketing. Fact: The cumulative value of malpractice payments (as distinct from the number of payments) in 2008 was either the lowest or second-lowest on record, depending on how one adjusts for inflation. Perhaps the only measure by which medical malpractice payments have increased over the life of the National Practitioner Data Bank is in the average, or mean, amount per payment.

Myth 4: Replacing the jury system with special tribunals would save the health care system money and would compensate more patients who suffered adverse events in the course of care. Fact: Data from Harvard’s Colorado-Utah Medical Practice Study were used to analyze the prospective costs of establishing special tribunals that would theoretically compensate more patients who suffered adverse events in the course of care but would limit the amount of compensation received by each. This analysis showed that a no-fault compensation system (compensating patients who suffer adverse events regardless of whether they are preventable) would cost more than four times as much as the tort system.
0 Replies
 
wandeljw
 
  2  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 11:10 am
Quote:
OUR VIEW: Thanks, Governor, for the stimulus money
(Editorial, The Lafayette Advertiser, July 28, 2009)

The response by Southern Republican governors to President Barack Obama’s economic stimulus package has been fascinating, from both a political and a psychological point of view.

In Texas, Gov. Rick Perry occasionally appears to be having some sort of episode. He has threatened at least twice to lead Texas through another secession from the United States, the first one having worked out so well, because of some federal program or another. And he turned down $555 million of the $14 billion in stimulus funding because it was aimed at an extension of unemployment benefits that Perry didn’t think was sustainable beyond the next few years. He was lambasted by fellow Republican Kay Bailey Hutchinson.

Gov. Mark Sanford of South Carolina, opposed stimulus in principle, but not everywhere, and not all the time.

And our own Gov. Bobby Jindal had the same objections on principle that Sanford espoused and on the unemployment benefits expansion that got Perry in an uproar. Yet on Jindal’s Louisiana Works tour of cities and towns, he has passed out government checks, some of which derives from the federal stimulus act. Jindal has been criticized for hypocrisy on that account.

We should give the governor more credit than blame here. If you think taking the funding to which Jindal was opposed in theory was hypocritical, you might also have to admit that turning it down would have been just plain dumb.

Jindal, and the secession-minded Perry for that matter, opposed the unemployment extension for good reason. The feds were willing to put up the money for a two-year hike in jobless benefits. Jindal and Perry have both expressed doubts about what happens after that.

The possibilities are: a reduction to the old benefit levels, which Perry argues isn’t likely; more federal money, which cannot be relied upon; and a devolution of the financial burden to the state government. Jindal, who has been leading efforts to improve Louisiana’s commercial climate, argues that boosting unemployment insurance premiums for business doesn’t make long-term economic sense.

As for the stimulus money Jindal accepted and handed out, why not? His actions are no more two-faced than those of people who argue for campaign finance reform while taking money from PACs and looking the other way when so-called independent expenditure groups run attack ads.

Maybe the rules should be changed. Until they are, that’s the way the game is played, and those who don’t play by them represent their constituents poorly.
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Tue 28 Jul, 2009 11:46 am
@wandeljw,
It is not hypocritical to recognize that the government, however dishonestly or inappropriately, will be distributing the taxpayers' money no matter what. I would think any Governor worth his salt would grab as much as he could get of his own constituencies' taxes paid.

The smart governors, those who see themselves as public servants, won't take the money with expensive strings attached or that will take away freedoms or opportunities or choices for the people in their state. Opportunist governors will grab whatever they can get with whatever strings so they can brag about how much they accomplished for their state or so they can ingratiate themselves with those in high places who can raise big money for campaigns or make lucrative appointments. They hope to move on to better things before any chickens they accepted will actually come home to roost, and they count on the short memories and/or apathy of the people to absolve them of the blame when that happens.

Dishonest reporters or media commentators, however, rarely ever report it that way but try to make it far more devious than it actually is.

And this situation will continue until we have enough Tea Parties and other peaceful uprisings by the people who demand that we take away the government's power to use the taxpayers' money to curry favor with special interest groups.
0 Replies
 
 

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